15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It
- Thread starter AndyFromMonday
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Thank you for clarifying that.dyre said:
I'd still argue that it was justified self-defense. If we look at the below:
When I look at the article, I see it as several teens having expressed the intent to fight Saavedra at some bus stop. In other words, he must have been expecting at least three people to physically assault him, when they reached their destination.AndyFromMonday said:
Add to that the fact that when he decided to get off the bus, these people followed him, and one of them subsequently attacked him. Naturally he assumed that said fight was about to start, and had a very legitimate fear for his life.
I would still argue that it was not retaliation for "a smack on the head", but self-defense in a situation he perceived as dangerous, if I consider the context.
This is like saying that because you've been in car crashes where you weren't hurt, nobody needs to go to the ER after a crash.Kungfu_Teddybear said:
i cite a clear lack of intelligence on all parties
i carried the wreckage of two flash cameras around with me for three years because i knew a small 600v jolt will incapacitate most people sufficiently to make them run away, cry or just leave me the hell alone as it leaves small scorch marks on your skin.
only ever used it on one guy and that's cause he didn't believe it would work, his loss
i tried it on myself once it really hurts and it makes your muscles spaz out in the area you zap
highly recommended if anyone's being bullied on the escapist
make it into a knuckleduster for maximum effect by the way
i carried the wreckage of two flash cameras around with me for three years because i knew a small 600v jolt will incapacitate most people sufficiently to make them run away, cry or just leave me the hell alone as it leaves small scorch marks on your skin.
only ever used it on one guy and that's cause he didn't believe it would work, his loss
i tried it on myself once it really hurts and it makes your muscles spaz out in the area you zap
highly recommended if anyone's being bullied on the escapist
make it into a knuckleduster for maximum effect by the way
Warning: wall of text incoming
Lets review this case methodically and look at the decision that the judge has made. Under the 1998 Florida statutes "A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony." (source: http://www.self-defender.net).
So the question of whether the judge made the right decision as to whether Jorge Saavedra killed Dylan Nuno in an act of self defence motivated by fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
Lets examine the implication of the knife itself, as many people have already commented that this means that the attack was premeditated thus murder.
Jorge Saavedra brought the knife onto the bus, which suggests premeditation. However, the fact that Saavedra repeatedly attempted to disengage and de-escalate from the confrontation which was to occur at the final bus stop suggests that it was not his intention to aggressively utilise the knife (as in use it as an advantage in the upcoming altercation), but instead was carrying the knife defensively (to use as an escape option or as a bargaining chip when trying to prevent being beaten). Remember here that I am not debating whether it was legal or right of Saavedra to be carrying a weapon, I am trying to discern whether he believed he was in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.
Now lets move on to the actual chronology of the incident.
Nuno had been involved in both altercations and verbal abusive with Saavedra multiple occasions prior to the final conflict. These incidents were frequent and severe enought to make Saavedra continually avoid contact with Nuno by skipping school and/or avoiding the bus. Thus merely being on the bus, let alone near Nuno would be enough to heighten stress levels in Saavedra. As the bus trip wore on Saavedra was repeatedly prevented from disengaging from the future conflict scenario, each time increasing the stress that he was under. The body's natural reaction to stress is provided by the sympathetic nervous system in the form of adrenalin, causing numerous physiological changes such as auditory exclusion and tunnel vision. However, the most prominent aspect of the sympathetic nervous systems responses is so called 'flight-or-fight' (source: On Killing, Lt.Col. Dave Grossman). This means as Saavedra steps of this bus he is already amped and ready to go.
Now this brings us to the physical altercation itself and the mindset which Saavedra found himself in as the conflict progressed.
Firstly, Saavedra is followed off the bus by Nuno and several friends. Saavedra is now outnumbered by larger and older boys. Even if the others were not going to partake in the violence their mere presence lends itself to Nuno's power in the situation and increases the stress which Saavedra is undergoing. Nuno then proceeds to strike Saavedra in the back of the head. Now a headshot, particularly one which you don't see coming, is going to rock you (source: personal experience), but more importantly it is now the breaking point in a psychological build up which began way before the first punch was thrown. All that stress he had been under up to this point is now unleashed as his body goes into emergency mode.
Now according to the judge Saavedra was under attack from the moment he was hit in the back of the head until he began to stab Nuno. Unfortunately we do not have any video footage of the fight itself so we cannot be sure of the severity of the attack Saavedra was subjected to before he began to stab Nuno so here we must depart fact and begin speculation (though to be fair my dramatic interpretation of Saavedra's mental state was also speculation, however much more well informed than the following.
Nuno used an ambush attack to catch Saavedra off guard, he was not interested in a 'fair' fight (a contest if you will). Rather, he was attempting to showcase his dominance over Saavedra by humiliating him with a beating. It is impossible to discern whether Nuno was going to kill Saavedra or just going to 'smack him round a little' but at this moment Saavedra is under attack, his mind in code black, and he sees no possible 'flight solution' to save himself from attack. The fact that Saavedra was carrying a knife to begin with suggests that he feared that the altercation would be severe enough to warrant the carriage of a lethal weapon (in his own mind not legally). Thus Saavedra is now in a state of fight-or-flight his escape routes denied to him and reeling from an ambush style attack which he suspects may result in at least major bodily damage to his own person. In this situation Saavedra now draws his knife and attacks Nuno stabbing him 12 times and dealing two fatal blows.
Now allot of people have been arguing that 12 stabs seems excessive. In most stabbing situations you need to realise how quickly a knife strike can occur. (source: [WARNING: BLOOD AND DEATH] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gcFPjdwiI, ignore the stupid commentary ) watch many strikes the attacker gets in before being shot (and that includes the time it took to navigate obstacles and change targets). Now admittedly we don't know whether Saavedra used the wild slashes of an amature or the trained and controlled stabs of the knife fighting pro (I'll go with the former) however, I believe the section right before the attacker is shot at the end of the clip best represents what the knifing of Nuno would have looked like, a wild and rapid attack in which 12 strikes would have literally been a matter of seconds. During the attack itself Saavedra probably didn't even make the concious decision to continue stabbing Nuno, he merely continued to strike until the threat to his life was stopped, resulting in the death of Dylan Nuno.
Looking at the facts from this angle it is possible to see why it would be completely justified for the judge to clear Saavedra of his charges. I will admit I have made some assumptions: Saavedra's mental state, the nature of Nuno's attack and the nature of Saavedra's knife attack. However, I believe that these are not flying leaps to conclusions, but fairly balanced extrapolations of the facts present. As to the morality of the issue that is entirely up to the individual.
Do I think Saavedra should have been carrying a knife? No.
Do I think that Saavedra's actions were justified? Yes.
Do I think that the end result was a tragedy which left a young man, regardless of his character and nature, dead? Yes.
Lets review this case methodically and look at the decision that the judge has made. Under the 1998 Florida statutes "A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony." (source: http://www.self-defender.net).
So the question of whether the judge made the right decision as to whether Jorge Saavedra killed Dylan Nuno in an act of self defence motivated by fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
Lets examine the implication of the knife itself, as many people have already commented that this means that the attack was premeditated thus murder.
Jorge Saavedra brought the knife onto the bus, which suggests premeditation. However, the fact that Saavedra repeatedly attempted to disengage and de-escalate from the confrontation which was to occur at the final bus stop suggests that it was not his intention to aggressively utilise the knife (as in use it as an advantage in the upcoming altercation), but instead was carrying the knife defensively (to use as an escape option or as a bargaining chip when trying to prevent being beaten). Remember here that I am not debating whether it was legal or right of Saavedra to be carrying a weapon, I am trying to discern whether he believed he was in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.
Now lets move on to the actual chronology of the incident.
Nuno had been involved in both altercations and verbal abusive with Saavedra multiple occasions prior to the final conflict. These incidents were frequent and severe enought to make Saavedra continually avoid contact with Nuno by skipping school and/or avoiding the bus. Thus merely being on the bus, let alone near Nuno would be enough to heighten stress levels in Saavedra. As the bus trip wore on Saavedra was repeatedly prevented from disengaging from the future conflict scenario, each time increasing the stress that he was under. The body's natural reaction to stress is provided by the sympathetic nervous system in the form of adrenalin, causing numerous physiological changes such as auditory exclusion and tunnel vision. However, the most prominent aspect of the sympathetic nervous systems responses is so called 'flight-or-fight' (source: On Killing, Lt.Col. Dave Grossman). This means as Saavedra steps of this bus he is already amped and ready to go.
Now this brings us to the physical altercation itself and the mindset which Saavedra found himself in as the conflict progressed.
Firstly, Saavedra is followed off the bus by Nuno and several friends. Saavedra is now outnumbered by larger and older boys. Even if the others were not going to partake in the violence their mere presence lends itself to Nuno's power in the situation and increases the stress which Saavedra is undergoing. Nuno then proceeds to strike Saavedra in the back of the head. Now a headshot, particularly one which you don't see coming, is going to rock you (source: personal experience), but more importantly it is now the breaking point in a psychological build up which began way before the first punch was thrown. All that stress he had been under up to this point is now unleashed as his body goes into emergency mode.
Now according to the judge Saavedra was under attack from the moment he was hit in the back of the head until he began to stab Nuno. Unfortunately we do not have any video footage of the fight itself so we cannot be sure of the severity of the attack Saavedra was subjected to before he began to stab Nuno so here we must depart fact and begin speculation (though to be fair my dramatic interpretation of Saavedra's mental state was also speculation, however much more well informed than the following.
Nuno used an ambush attack to catch Saavedra off guard, he was not interested in a 'fair' fight (a contest if you will). Rather, he was attempting to showcase his dominance over Saavedra by humiliating him with a beating. It is impossible to discern whether Nuno was going to kill Saavedra or just going to 'smack him round a little' but at this moment Saavedra is under attack, his mind in code black, and he sees no possible 'flight solution' to save himself from attack. The fact that Saavedra was carrying a knife to begin with suggests that he feared that the altercation would be severe enough to warrant the carriage of a lethal weapon (in his own mind not legally). Thus Saavedra is now in a state of fight-or-flight his escape routes denied to him and reeling from an ambush style attack which he suspects may result in at least major bodily damage to his own person. In this situation Saavedra now draws his knife and attacks Nuno stabbing him 12 times and dealing two fatal blows.
Now allot of people have been arguing that 12 stabs seems excessive. In most stabbing situations you need to realise how quickly a knife strike can occur. (source: [WARNING: BLOOD AND DEATH] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gcFPjdwiI, ignore the stupid commentary ) watch many strikes the attacker gets in before being shot (and that includes the time it took to navigate obstacles and change targets). Now admittedly we don't know whether Saavedra used the wild slashes of an amature or the trained and controlled stabs of the knife fighting pro (I'll go with the former) however, I believe the section right before the attacker is shot at the end of the clip best represents what the knifing of Nuno would have looked like, a wild and rapid attack in which 12 strikes would have literally been a matter of seconds. During the attack itself Saavedra probably didn't even make the concious decision to continue stabbing Nuno, he merely continued to strike until the threat to his life was stopped, resulting in the death of Dylan Nuno.
Looking at the facts from this angle it is possible to see why it would be completely justified for the judge to clear Saavedra of his charges. I will admit I have made some assumptions: Saavedra's mental state, the nature of Nuno's attack and the nature of Saavedra's knife attack. However, I believe that these are not flying leaps to conclusions, but fairly balanced extrapolations of the facts present. As to the morality of the issue that is entirely up to the individual.
Do I think Saavedra should have been carrying a knife? No.
Do I think that Saavedra's actions were justified? Yes.
Do I think that the end result was a tragedy which left a young man, regardless of his character and nature, dead? Yes.
As someone who has been bullied virtually all his life I think that there is likely more that happened to the victim (And by victim I mean the kid who did the stabbing.) than is being admitted. Yes murder is wrong but so is living your life in fear and having parents, teachers and classmates doing nothing about because 'boys will be boys'.
We don't know how many times that kid begged for help, called in 'sick', pleaded for help, etc. And because there was a gang of these bullies it'd be their word against his which is usually more than enough for an incompetent principal to say that there is nothing wrong going on.
I'm not trying to say I agree with what the kid did but I agree that he shouldn't have to serve time for it. The kid didn't go and stab this bully because he thought it was fun, he was protecting himself and defending himself where NOBODY ELSE WOULD.
But surely he needs to be punished I hear you saying and I disagree because he'll be living with the knowledge that he with his own two hands murdered a human being and the fact that he has taken another's life will haunt him til the end of his days.
We don't know how many times that kid begged for help, called in 'sick', pleaded for help, etc. And because there was a gang of these bullies it'd be their word against his which is usually more than enough for an incompetent principal to say that there is nothing wrong going on.
I'm not trying to say I agree with what the kid did but I agree that he shouldn't have to serve time for it. The kid didn't go and stab this bully because he thought it was fun, he was protecting himself and defending himself where NOBODY ELSE WOULD.
But surely he needs to be punished I hear you saying and I disagree because he'll be living with the knowledge that he with his own two hands murdered a human being and the fact that he has taken another's life will haunt him til the end of his days.
While it's good the kind stood up for himself, stabbing a person eleven times is way too much...
Edit: nevermind, I pretty much wrote just a paraphrase of what he wrote. Didn't read before hand.Shirker said:
Sorry to say that I'm behind the kid who was being bullied 100%, no questions asked. I've seen how badly some kids get bullied. The fact that it comes to this, although tragic, is actually necessary to a degree. We live in a world where terrible things must happen before change is made a lot of times. Do I feel sorry for the kid who died....No...No I can honestly say I don't feel anything for him. Because if you have such a blatant disrespect for your peers, so much to the point you bully a person till you push his ass over the edge and he stabs you to death, then you're clearly not deserving of my sympathy. This was just a case of karma getting the best of someone I feel. With a little luck, maybe this incident will open the eyes of the people in this community affected by this, and they will come down hard on behavior that invokes such violent responses from kids, and then we just pray it doesn't happen again.
yeah i think self defense flew out the window at stab two. i totally believe you have the right to, and should defend yourself against bullying, bullying itself has caused death in the past and it should be snuffed out, just not stabbed out. it's really hard to say wether the force was neccessary at all, as in was any of this prevoked by the kid who did the stabbing? far to much is unknown to make a real opinion but it's all around sad.
Even for a crime ridden city like Naples that's pretty extreme.
Sounds like the kid came under an immense amount of pressure and didn't know how to deal with it. Parents and government education system are to blame, I don't believe he deserves to be prosecuted but he definitely needs help and a better understanding of how to deal with stressful situations.
Sounds like the kid came under an immense amount of pressure and didn't know how to deal with it. Parents and government education system are to blame, I don't believe he deserves to be prosecuted but he definitely needs help and a better understanding of how to deal with stressful situations.
Pretty sure knives are banned in schools and on school property, i.e. the bus, so he should be getting something for that.
More importantly, I agree on the dismissal of charges. Fight was announced, he did what he reasonably could to avoid it, and defended himself when attacked. It reads as if the opening hit was a strike to his head, which can easily be construed as deadly force, so Jorge reacted as such.
I'm glad the bully died, to be honest. Maybe word will get out and other little shits who think bullying is a good idea will rethink their pathetic lives.
More importantly, I agree on the dismissal of charges. Fight was announced, he did what he reasonably could to avoid it, and defended himself when attacked. It reads as if the opening hit was a strike to his head, which can easily be construed as deadly force, so Jorge reacted as such.
I'm glad the bully died, to be honest. Maybe word will get out and other little shits who think bullying is a good idea will rethink their pathetic lives.
Kid gets off bus early to get away from a fight, bully follows him and punches him.
Good fucking riddance. We don't need people like that on the planet. This bully was intent on starting a fight (with gang in tow) and the victim wasn't having it. I love when scum bags get what is coming to them.
Good fucking riddance. We don't need people like that on the planet. This bully was intent on starting a fight (with gang in tow) and the victim wasn't having it. I love when scum bags get what is coming to them.
There are plenty of cases like this, where the victim, under immense psychological distress turmoil, makes a terribly violent decision (Such as making homemade bombs and blowing up themselves and the school). Not saying that this should go un-punished, but from the way this was described, the victim was assaulted, and even tried to run away and avoid the confrontation altogether, and when the bully made this impossible, this merely fueled the victims self-motivation and possible justification(Not saying it was justified, but the situation may have led the victim who was extremely distressed to believe that it was), in murdering this person. The issue as I see it happened either of one of two ways:
1. The victims plans flew out the window and were gone when they had second thoughts, but the bully caused them to think twice, thus making them murder the bully out of uncontrollable rage and self-defense.
2. It was completely and utterly pre-meditated, and the victim merely baited the bully into bullying to help lessen or erase the punishment received for the murder that was going to be committed no matter what.
I'm leaning toward the first, but I could also be completely wrong on both ideas.
So, should they be punished? Yes. Should they be sent to jail until they're 21? I don't think so. But this is just (IMO)
EDIT: I also can't really say that I feel bad for the bully. I know that if I had been in that situation, once I had brought lethal force into the dilemna, there would be no going back. If I didn't kill the bully, then I doubt he would just think, "Oh man, this kid is dangerous, I'd better not mess with him anymore". I'd think as soon as he was better, he would bring a gun with him and kill me. I'd be worried for my life if I left the job undone, and I can't say that I know what I would do under intense emotional distress, in a situation that could lead to future harm if I leave the job unfinished. Part of me says to live in fear and convince my parents to either move, or I myself to move in with relative in a different state, while the other side of me would kill this person.
1. The victims plans flew out the window and were gone when they had second thoughts, but the bully caused them to think twice, thus making them murder the bully out of uncontrollable rage and self-defense.
2. It was completely and utterly pre-meditated, and the victim merely baited the bully into bullying to help lessen or erase the punishment received for the murder that was going to be committed no matter what.
I'm leaning toward the first, but I could also be completely wrong on both ideas.
So, should they be punished? Yes. Should they be sent to jail until they're 21? I don't think so. But this is just (IMO)
EDIT: I also can't really say that I feel bad for the bully. I know that if I had been in that situation, once I had brought lethal force into the dilemna, there would be no going back. If I didn't kill the bully, then I doubt he would just think, "Oh man, this kid is dangerous, I'd better not mess with him anymore". I'd think as soon as he was better, he would bring a gun with him and kill me. I'd be worried for my life if I left the job undone, and I can't say that I know what I would do under intense emotional distress, in a situation that could lead to future harm if I leave the job unfinished. Part of me says to live in fear and convince my parents to either move, or I myself to move in with relative in a different state, while the other side of me would kill this person.