179: The Battleship Final Fantasy

[tobyornottoby]

There's certainly truth in there, but there's a big difference...

One is practical, the other is aesthetical. The aesthetical value of battleships can be valued above those aircraft carrier groups, even through the latter might be superior in practice.

Same with the whole Steampunk-vibe, there's just value in there

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I do understand what people mean when they say the JRPG genre needs to change. Saying it doesn't need to is folly. But the question is exactly how can you update it to modern standards while still keeping its spirit intact.

For one, Final Fantasy will never and SHOULD NEVER become Oblivion/Fallout 3, that is not what people want out of a Final Fantasy game. Let's be honest here, the long time fans of the series like the "playable movie" format, it's been going in that direction since 6. What Square should be doing is working towards making the "playable movie" a little more playable and malliable by the players.

One of the problems I see with that however is that Final Fantasy titles are Ensemble Pieces, it's hard to do that with the Western RPG format. In Western RPG's there is an extreme focus on a single main character, they make all the decisions, they are always the "leader" etc. But look at FFXII or FFX, Tidus and Vaan are tag a longs. While Tidus eventually develops importance to the plot, Vaan is really always just an observer in Ashe's story. So I put this to all the unshakable WRPG fans out there...

How can you make an Interactive Ensemble Piece?

It's a difficult thing to wrap your head around.

 

[Syntax Error]

Oh don't worry soon Atlus will fall under 'It's Popular Now It Sucks' (Supposedly it's already their) then I can ignore more people ragging on ANOTHER RPG series that isn't doing anything wrong.

Cynical much? I really hope your prediction doesn't come true...

 

[GloatingSwine]

One of the problems I see with that however is that Final Fantasy titles are Ensemble Pieces, it's hard to do that with the Western RPG format. In Western RPG's there is an extreme focus on a single main character, they make all the decisions, they are always the "leader" etc. But look at FFXII or FFX, Tidus and Vaan are tag a longs. While Tidus eventually develops importance to the plot, Vaan is really always just an observer in Ashe's story. So I put this to all the unshakable WRPG fans out there...

Some of them are, some of them aren't.

Final Fantasy IV is unavoidably Cecil's story, he's the POV and central player character, and everyone else essentially exists to cross his story's path.

Many other JRPGs are the same. Breath of Fire is always unavoidably Ryu's story, Grandia was Justin's, etc. In fact, there are very few JRPGs where you can say there's a strong ensemble cast. Wild Arms has one, as does Wild Arms 3. Final Fantasy II, V, VI and XII do. (FFX does not. Yuna is the central character, everyone else revolves around her, a good portion of the cast, Kimahri, Wakka, and Lulu at least are hardly involved other than as meatshields with their own little bit of side story).

 

[Syntax Error]

@Onmi:
Link please? I wanna read that. Well, I guess people hate stuff because it's popular.

EDIT:
From what I heard, the social interaction aspect for Persona 4 was even better than the one in FES. I just wished there were more limitations when you got your girlfriend to S.Link lv 10.

 

[Veylon]

A well-written article (even if I do prefer FF6 over FF4), Final Fantasy games really have gotten too wrapped up in telling a story over being played. In Final Fantasy 6, the side quests towards the end provided actual benefit in the final dungeon (in the form of extra characters or special attacks), but did not give out some gamebreaking super-ultra-mega-weapon. In Final Fantasy XII, the sidequests become entirely irrelevant. So what if I find the rare monsters? What good do they do me besides give me a pretty card?

Also, a problem in many RPGs is that the battle system and plot seem wholly divorced. In La Pucelle (but this applies anywhere), I had a character who basically carried the team for an entire chapter and then fretted about being useless. I'd seemed a bit out of character for her to be whining like a little girl after splashing demon ichor all over the place for the last hour or so. The characters' roles in the plot need to reflect how the player uses and sees them and not be locked in stone.

Also, in the same vein, there are very few meaningful events or choices. In Final Fantasy XII, I'm on the run from the Empire. Fortunately, the concepts of the "Do Not Fly List" and "Wanted Poster" do not exist, so I can still chat with Imperial Troopers and travel the airlines. Pissing off the omnipresent Empire ought to have fairly significant consequences, not just to the characters, but to the player. Bounty Hunters and Imperial Troops should be dogging my steps. My bank accounts should be impounded; Stores closed to me. I want some atmosphere dammit!

Another thing that's gotten to be a pain is the "other" characters. You know, the ones that aren't in your party. Shouldn't they be sent off on missions and such instead of sitting around eating and partying. I'll grant that sometimes there are split missions, but it really should be all the time, even if it's something along the lines of Final Fantasy Tactics, where spare characters are sent off and come back laden (hopefully) with experience and treasure. It'd add a lot to the story if the player's choices of who to send off on these missions had actual effects on the plot, instead of being filler. Or maybe people who don't get chosen for the party could get bored and quit. Doesn't Balthier have something profitable to do with his time?

 

[Veylon]

@Onmi:
Link please? I wanna read that. Well, I guess people hate stuff because it's popular.

When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

 

[Syntax Error]

When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

It's a vicious cycle. Too bad it's all so true.

 

[GloatingSwine]

@Onmi:
Link please? I wanna read that. Well, I guess people hate stuff because it's popular.

When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

Except, of course, that can happen within the life of a single product. Witness the fact you can now find many people who will say that they never liked, for example, Portal to begin with, because it's all mainstream and popular now.

 

[Syntax Error]

Oh yeah, the other thing I hated about XII was this [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical]. Some people call this the "Ribbon Syndrome".

I don't remember the exact details, but let me explain a bit:

The Ribbon is an accessory in FFXII (and probably other FF's as well) that renders the wearer immune to all stat ailments. In FFXII, the ribbon is placed in a chest that appears in one of the most difficult dungeons in the game. Along the way, you fight tough monsters that inflict you with stat ailments. Once you get to the room, there's a 10% chance that the chest appears, and a 10% chance (probably not the exact figures) that the chest contains the ribbon. Reload the game until lady luck smiles upon you and she decides to give it to you. But before you can even do that, you have to power-up so that you can take on the monsters.

Once you do get the Ribbon, you're probably too powerful for it to be of any use.

 

[GloatingSwine]

The Persona series allways have a strong cast, and in 3 and 4 you get stronger Persona by becoming friends with everyone (And subsequently hitting on all the legal girls)

It got to a weird point in The Hermit tarot with Maya the online gamer, and it turns out that she's your teacher, and has the hots for you, and doesn't know it's YOU.which led m to believe so bizarre yet kinky scenario went down, The cast being so well rounded and lovable that despite you being a silent prick (Save for saying Persona) everyone developed well including you.

There's a difference between a strong cast and a strong ensemble cast though. Persona 3, from your description, is a story about your one character and the people you meet. You are the hero, you make the big sacrifice at the end. They may be very strong and well defined characters, as are those of, say, Planescape: Torment, but Torment is undoubtedly the story primarily of The Nameless One and the characters who revolve around him.

By contrast, Wild Arms, for example, has three (and only three) characters who all have equal claim to be the "main character" of the piece, they're all critically significant to the plot, and they all succeed together. (Indeed, the way the game starts is a little unique as well, you play an intro with all three characters in any order, which ends at the point where they meet and the real plot kicks off.)

I think Marche in FFTA had the same issue (Sorta) A lot of the time he's criticized for returning the world to normal and crippling his brother. But what happened to almost everyone alive when Mewt opened the book? who's to say that he wasn't denying the existence of people by keeping the world as a fantasy.

Either choice he made he ceased the existence of a world, he is, with out a doubt in my mind a mass murderer, but a sympathetic one.

Whether you believe Marche is worse than Hitler or not depends on whether you believe that the Ivalice they are in is "real" or simply a magical fantasy provided by the book. If it's the latter, then Marche's stance (Live in the real world, even if it's a bit crappy, because it's real) is very different. He's not "ending the world" of Ivalice, he's waking everyone up from a dream.

Also, Ritz was the one with real issues. She wants to stay in Special Fantasy World because she doesn't like dyeing her hair.

 

[falsealarm]

This article is laughable. It sounds to me like you are just like all the gamers who feel FF has lost its touch. It's an opinion and only that, and in my opinion it is down right silly.

Everything you say would translate into FF being no where near as popular as it is now. Clearly, you have figured out something that millions of fans and nearly all professional critics have failed to see.

I am someone who has found most of the FF stories to be quite compelling, and the characters quite to be extremely interesting. Each FF successfully thrusts you into a completely new world and prepares you for an adventure that follows a proven model -- one of quality.

So please, if you think you've uncovered some sort of truth about the FF franchise, and think it's true because you can write an article that makes your opinion look important (I couldn't help but laugh at the enlarged quotation segments), you could at least leave an "IMO" in there somewhere -- so i can be sure not to waste time.

 

[falsealarm]

Oh yeah, the other thing I hated about XII was this [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical]. Some people call this the "Ribbon Syndrome".

I don't remember the exact details, but let me explain a bit:

The Ribbon is an accessory in FFXII (and probably other FF's as well) that renders the wearer immune to all stat ailments. In FFXII, the ribbon is placed in a chest that appears in one of the most difficult dungeons in the game. Along the way, you fight tough monsters that inflict you with stat ailments. Once you get to the room, there's a 10% chance that the chest appears, and a 10% chance (probably not the exact figures) that the chest contains the ribbon. Reload the game until lady luck smiles upon you and she decides to give it to you. But before you can even do that, you have to power-up so that you can take on the monsters.

Once you do get the Ribbon, you're probably too powerful for it to be of any use.

All FFs give you the option to become over powered beyond challenge. It depends on what type of gamer you are.

 

[falsealarm]

Hi All,


Thanks for taking the time to read the article--and thanks even more for taking the time to reply.

L.B.: don't get me wrong man. I like the Saturday Morning Cartoons! I'll watch The Herculoids any old day, but it would irk me to learn that someone was investing millions to re-make The Herculoids without changing the tone and quality of the program in any way. That's what I find with FF.

ccesarono: I do mention that the Yamato was taken out by an aircraft carrier. You are right that much of what I'm talking about stems from cultural differences. I think it's easier to overcome these differences with a handheld platform, because you don't approach handheld games with the same expectations you have for full console games.

nicholasofcusa: 'hackneyed' means "trite" or "banal" or "unoriginal". I don't think there are all that many metaphors comparing videogames with naval war vessels, but I'm eager to know of other examples.

R042G: You wrote: "Square Enix is slowly turning Final Fantasy into one more myth for Japan."--yup; that's one of the key ideas in this piece.

But I will disagree with your claim that you can only make a model once: you can only make a specific kit once. I was going to extend the metaphor with my experience making multiple Yamato models, but I figured enough was enough (and besides, as nicholasofcusa will tell you, that's a hackneyed metaphor!)

As an aside, is it me or do I draw out the first-time posters?

TsunamiWombat: Yes.

camkitsune: my point is that FF dialogue hasn't grown up. It's really no more natural or sensible now than it was in 1991. There's just more of it, and it has voice actors.

Seraph: actually, FPSs are immensely different from how they were in the days of Wolfenstein. Everything is. Look at Resident Evil; look at Ninja Gaiden; look at Mario!

The big innovation of FFXII, the gambit system, is really a way to avoid the tedium of playing Final Fantasy. The amazing thing about going back to play all those old FFs is that you discover you're still using the same pattern of presses on the D-pad, over and over again. It's disturbing when you skip from game to game, as I did while writing this piece, to find yourself making precisely the same inputs from decade to decade.

When I'm taking the commuter rail, I find this sort of thing soothing, but when I have a $600 PS3 and a $2,000 TV dedicated to it, something seems mightily awry.

At any rate, thanks again everybody. I appreciate your thoughts.


Best,


Ray.

yes you did draw me out as a first time poster.

I don't think it is fair to criticize the dialogue of FF games and use it as a point to bring down the over stories,themes, and characters of the the franchise. It's translated from Japanese, and all I hear from anime buffs is, "i cant believe you watch it in english."

It doesn't take an anime buff to see this either, media from Japan has always seemed corny and poorly presented because of how hard it is to translate the language. so i dont think that point is fair, being as you're not playing them in the their original language.

i'm not saying that some of the dialogue is FFs is kind of cheesy, Japanese or not (the FFX laughing scene for example), but you draw conclusions far too strongly based on something so passable.

And you are entitled to your opinions, but saturday morning cartoons come no where close to the plots and characters of FF games, and i think that's half the reason the games are so popular.

 

[GloatingSwine]

All FFs give you the option to become over powered beyond challenge. It depends on what type of gamer you are.

It's not so much the fact you can power yourself up beyond belief in FFXII (even if you do the optional boss is still a twelve million HP monster), but the fact that some of the items* were basically obtained through blind luck at astronomically long odds for absolutely no fucking reason.

* For "Some" read "all of the high end items".

Also, the Zodiac Spear, which is a pure kick in the nuts "you will never get this if you didn't buy the strategy guide [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt]" because it only appears if you didn't open three completely unmarked unidentified chests scattered all throughout the game with no rhyme, reason, or warning. If you did, well, enjoy your one in ten thousand drop chance...