214: Artificial Thrills

[antipunt]

Indeed. But is it a good thing? Sure, it's fantasy, and every rational adult will eventually realize, "hey, it doesn't work like that," but we still have to be careful to have realistic and not fantastic expectations about our relationships. The question then is, are such romantic fantasies healthy and help us vent our frustrations or do they unrealistically raise our expectations with regards to real romantic encounters?

I understand where you are coming from. That said, I -never- said these fantasies were necessarily a great thing. My reply was mainly in response towards the other user (specifically), because she was on a moral high-horse, seemingly anyway, against men in general. Playing these games (and reading books like Twilight) is somewhat of a, how should we say, sad-coping-mechanism (in my opinion). There are a lot of lonely souls out there, and this helps them get by. If I were to be completely honest, I'd also add The Sims into the pot of 'sad' games. But with that said, that doesn't mean these games are 'El Diablo'. I'll explain this further down.

I mean, it can get truly frightening in that "women are just puzzles" plays directly into the stalker mentality of, "if only I could just figure out what it is I can do to get her/him to love me". So I can imagine the fear against such fantasies. But how they truly affect us is beyond what we know.

The only thing this really shows is that after ten thousand years of existence, we still don't know enough about what makes us tick.

To be completely frank, I find this 'women are puzzles oh noes' notion very silly...How do you think 80% of men think to begin with? Also, 'if only I could figure out what it is I can do to get... (etc.)' is -not- stalker mentality. What's the difference between a 'playa' and a 'stalker'? The 'playa' is probably 'better looking' and more skilled in deception, while the stalker struggles to understand 'how women tick'. Simple. Disagreement with this bit here is naivety at work. Despite being a guy who prefers 'romance over sex', it'd be absolutely ludicrous to deny that the -majority- of males are not of this mindset. Not saying they -completely- perceive women as sex objects...but for sure, the majority of men think in a 'puzzle-like' mentality to begin with. Some of them are just exceptionally 'skillful' at making it seem otherwise; these are also, by the way, the men who are swamped by females. And of course, few of them will publicly admit it, because it 'hurts their game'.

Ugh, don't start. There's unreported crimes, the fact that train molestation is a -very- big problem, and other factors - it's hardly a clearcut issue. Not only that, but them having said games aren't the only difference between here and Japan; more likely it is the culture that produces the games and the crime patterns, rather than the game producing the crime patterns.

Games like this serve more as catharsis than anything else. Did you know games like this -reduced- rape-crimes in Japan? (really)

Despite quoting this bit, you never really addressed it. It's a -fact- that since porn (and by association, porn games) started becoming widespread in Japan, rape crimes decreased. There's a correlation, and most likely it's because of catharsis. Like I mentioned previously, I never said these games were 'the ideal'. I mean, -obviously-. The ideal is being in the arms of a sweet gal/guy in a respectable relationship that revolves around trust, respect, and love. But with that said, -not all of us- are able to easily acquire this. What I'm basically implying is that 'these games aren't the devil!', which is what, for whatever reason, a lot of people are making them out to be.

 

[UncleAsriel]

Excuse me if I ramble, I am rather tired right now.

antipunt, what sources do you have for the correlation between pornography and sexual violence? my social psychologist side is curious.

I send you two videos related to the matters of feminism and the portrayal of sexual / romantic intimacy in video games. I present:

MovieBob offers some fascinating perspectives on womanhood as portrayed in games, in this little beauty. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iNs5iG2h34]

Relative unknown Daniel Floyd does this fascinating exploration of the industry's attempts to develop sexuality in gaming. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFywW99Uvwc]

Forget not that these games are aimed at the otaku subculture of Japan, which are quite amusingly deviant at times. Do some reading on otaku culture and you will be darkly amused, if you've got a misanthrope's touch ot else otherwise taken aback.

Truth be told, though, it is rather difficult to implement concepts like trust-building without a mathematical system. It is unrealistic and creepy to turn something like devotion or affection into a mathematical value, but is it any different that The Nameless One of Planescape: Torment using a jacked up charisma score to win over his team?

 

[FunkyJ]

Something in this article prompted me to a link someone sent around work...

This guy said the more complex his life, the less complex the games he plays.

"The more complexity and mental stimulation I was getting from other activities ? usually my day job at the time ? the less I needed mental stimulation in my free time. Conversely, in times in my life when I was working boring jobs, I?d be playing games that required a lot of thinking and mental gymnastics"

"Earlier in this blog, I noted that technology geeks gravitate towards games like D&D because they give people simple boundaries to storytelling, and straightforward challenges to overcome."

http://www.networkperformancedaily.com/2009/08/an_epiphany_i_had_while_playin.html

These seem to support many of the claims in this article, and may be a worthwhile investigation for a future article.

 

[ninjajoeman]

ill give you a hard drive...

 

[Paragon Fury]

Honestly, I don't see the big deal with these games.

Sure, they're escapist (heh, heh) fantasy in the purest sense, but thats what games are made for. If someone wanted interaction with real women, they would go and (try to) do that, instead of playing a game.

 

[theultimateend]

Most countries whack it to war games. The Japanese whack it to sex games.

So which group of people is weirder in the end honestly.

 

[pneuma08]

A couple things; I'll try to keep this short.

Firstly, I wasn't actually attacking your position, just using your comment as a springboard to the larger discussion. The question here, really, isn't if these games are "El Diablo" or if they are "ideal". It is where they are in this spectrum that needs to be fleshed out; how much positive benefit and how much negative detriment they contribute to a society. (NB that those two are not mutually exclusive.)

Secondly, the difference between a stalker and a normal person (a 'playah', whatever) is that the stalker is both stuck on one person, and will never admit that said person is a puzzle that cannot be solved (i.e. they will continue to try to crack said puzzle, without success, even if by any rational means it's impossible).

Note: "...what it is I can do to get her/him to love me" Highlighted is the important part. This isn't about sexual favors or whatever. The stalker is seeking affection, not sex. I don't know about AG3, but what part does affection have as far as the game is concerned? It is, after all, not necessarily about sex, but rather growing women in a vat - which can be used as a means to an end, growing them so that they exist as sexual objects, but what happens when one grows affection and attachment towards these creatures? Might that even be the ultimate goal of the series? That's what I find messed up about it...making a caricature of a woman so that they can love you, wholly, unconditionally.

Maybe that is just me being prudish and really this all just ends up being catharsis, as you surmise. But is there really no difference between imagining your perfect lover (as everyone does) and playing out that fantasy for yourself with props and dolls?

Finally,

It's a -fact- that since porn (and by association, porn games) started becoming widespread in Japan, rape crimes decreased.

You tote this as a "-fact-", however I have heard otherwise and doubt it. It wasn't my intention to combat said issue, but rather to dodge it, by casting said doubt over it. Quite frankly, I don't care to debate it, as I am not prepared and don't particularly want to do the research. However, I will not accept it at face value.

Guess it wasn't so short after all? I never really was good at that.

 

[wildwind1290]

I was actually kind of apprehensive about this article at first, but now that I've actually given the entire article my undivided attention (albeit at 2:00 AM, which goes to show I may already have fallen into the category that states "perverted otaku with way too much time on his hands"), I'm starting to think that maybe the writer actually had some valid points to state.

Personally, having never known the refined touch and feel of a woman with my own two hands, among other things, I think he was right that Artificial Girl was designed to bridge a gap that exists between hentai and straight-up (pardon the pun) pornography, and for that matter, to make it a man's guilty pleasure rather than guiltily accepting the fact that he keeps naked women under his mattress away from his girlfriend/fiancee/wife and potentially throwing a spoke in the wheel of their relationship.

And personally, I think that it's okay. Why? It's part of who we are as men.

Humans are animals the same way we consider dogs, cats, or anything capable of sexual reproduction, animals. We are driven to play the field and enjoy it without a second thought. Primal instinct at it's best, ayup. But marital obligations are quite the leash, and when you only got one female to enjoy (and only when she's willing, on top of that), let me be the one to say that it leaves much to be desired (insert scorn from couples here). So what do we do? We improvise, and regret it every day of our lives because we feel like we're tossing fidelity out the window.

And for those of us (myself included) who believe honor is everything, we can't think of anything worse.

(inhales deeply)

My second agreement comes from the fact that most of the players would probably design girls around characters they feel attracted to. And why not? If I had this game, I'd probably have girls ranging in appearance from Edy Nelson (Valkyria Chronicles) and Lenalee Lee (D.Gray-man) to a host of Pokemorphs (minus their Pokemon traits, if any), and if that's what sates my fancy, then so be it. I don't have to feel guilty for it. That's what modern society is for. To make us all feel pathetic about who we are because we can't get a decent date even if we tried (I'm just talking about myself now, I need to get back on track) and have to improvise as a result.

But on the other side of the coin, perhaps we could view this as a step in the right direction. Yahtzee, in his S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky review, noted that the aforementioned was a game that showed just how well you'd do in a combat situation if the need arose. Instead of viewing it as yet another piece of evidence showing the degredation of society ('cause we've already got plenty of that), we could view it as a stepping stone toward a game that could be the key to testing your advances on a girl in a series of situations. Essentially, it'd be eroge's version of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. And the man behind it would probably be the greatest social genius of his day. And if you include the in-game sex sequence, then that'd be just a bonus.

*whew* Okay I'm done.

 

[Timotei]

*sigh*

Why am I not surprised even the slightest. The gaming industry would be way different if date & rape games didn't exist. For one they are a money belching tumor in Japan's gaming industry and yes, do convince the misguided that girls are puzzles.

However even your simple D & R games are made mostly by people who are new to the business and need to get a little experience under their belt before thay can work for the big companie, even if the experience they gain is animating the sequence that occurs when the player selects "Rape Ayumi". But hey, even I had the bad job once before.

 

[DuelDesert]

OK so we are a western culture, and they are an eastern culture. Each with it's own viewpoints and morals, ect, ect...But I look at it and think haven't the women have been raised submissive over centuries (sp?) so it doesen't suprise me that a game that revolves around the pleasuring of the male audiance exists...

 

[S_K]

Judge if you want but I tried this game and it really is as creepy as he says. The AI is almost more like bad actors rather then people with their own personalitys, the numbers don't change much, everything is pretty much just yes or no with no middle ground, even more so if you throw in the hacks.

It amused me most of all when one of the girls interacted with me for a change showing the slightest signs of personality on her own, hugging and not letting go, rather then me starting anything (which is normally how the game pans out) before the game promotly crashed! I'm guessing the crash was not supposed to happen, but it just seemed symbolic to me of how shallow the game was =P

 

[seorang]

A Zero-Punctuation semi-regular viewer, and I was wondering why there was AG3 on the side banner. 1 article later, hello new user.

Illusion's 3D-eroge always bored me really quick the few times I tried them. Nice 3D graphics amused for a while, before I got bored cause there was nothing else different, and no story/plot worth maintaining interest in.

That said, I found the whole "this is creepy" statement to be pretty hypocritical. If you're applying this to real life, this is just as disturbing as ManHunt, GTA, and so on. Only difference is that one is sex, the other is violence. Not criticising ManHunt, GTA and so on, but my point is, they're just games.

Oh, and thanks for the Hongfire plug. Don't hurt to add more views to a thread with 1.2million views already.

 

[messy]

But reducing something like attraction to a mathematical equation to me just seems completely wrong. Something like Love is almost by definition, you don't always pick the person who'll be easiest to "obtain" or the most classically good looking or it could be someone who you almost know it won't work it.

You base it on some other emotion which cant really be calculated and defies logic for the choosing of a partner. I know video games are reality but this just seems one of the things people shouldn't try to represent solely with 1 and 0s.

Also people playing this game are likely to have poor social skills, this would only seek to further worsen them since no vestige of actual social interaction remains. And the process of "designing a girl" is also heavily removed from the real world where perfection is pretty much impossible and personally I don't think should be ever be realistically sought after

 

[HentMas]

Girls of your own creation...it feels too much like a fatherly idea (at the beginning anyway) for me to fully appreciate it

Try the Princess Maker series. Fathering a girl is basically the point of the game.

i had that game, it was interesting and fullfiling to make her either crash and burn in a whorehouse or become the queen of the kingdom

and the "hunter" was a good option too, quite an interesting and entertaining game

 

[HentMas]

Judge if you want but I tried this game and it really is as creepy as he says. The AI is almost more like bad actors rather then people with their own personalitys, the numbers don't change much, everything is pretty much just yes or no with no middle ground, even more so if you throw in the hacks.

It amused me most of all when one of the girls interacted with me for a change showing the slightest signs of personality on her own, hugging and not letting go, rather then me starting anything (which is normally how the game pans out) before the game promotly crashed! I'm guessing the crash was not supposed to happen, but it just seemed symbolic to me of how shallow the game was =P

(somewhere in a little code line inside the games software)

"WHAT!?!? she is showing signs of real personality to the player!?!? EMERGENCY: CRASH THE GAME NOW!!!"

 

[HentMas]

Alright, at the risk of totally damning myself to everyone here at one of my favorite websites. I got a hold of this game like a year ago and and me and my finance of five years this December thought it was pretty fun. Not as like a foreplay kinda thing just a game like any other game. Sure this game has very adult themes but, we are adults and I can't see how it's all that different from porn or playboy even thought my girl and I had that phase earlier in our relationship I guess you can say we grew out of it. Still we enjoyed all those kinds of things from a perspective of lightheartedness and humor.

We took turns making girls and dressing them up populating our city with them and chasing them though it. Had our laughs and then just like most other games after you see all it had to offer and "completed" all the goals we but it away to find something new. But unlike the adult moves and mags from our past which neither of us are really interested in anymore we do get a little excited when headlines pop up about adult content here at the Escapist only to become disappointed to see that nobody wants to really try to take a game like this seriously. Sure I have an idea of the risks from the industry standpoint but that don't mean I have to like it.

Now go ahead and call me a perv I AM! and lucky for me so is my baby and, as long as we are happy that way and, we don't hurt anyone while doin it I can't see what wrong with it. So I guess the point I wanna make is its a game and it entertained me and if you don't like the premise don't play it. It didn't turn me into an obsessed, socially stunted, women objectifying, weirdo. Still I know that does happen at least the the obsessed, stunted, weirdo part because W.O.W. was a game she never got into but let me tell you I had a problem. But I fixed it and if any of you have been there with whatever game you know you have only yourself to blame.

dude, what an amazing wife you have, my wife is soo prudish that if i ever showed her what i have in my HD she would probably either trow my computer into a lake or ask me for a divorce

and yes, i kind of see your point about this game, i love eroge games as much as any other games because in general I LOVE GAMES

they are just a distraction, a stupid way to spend time, just that, i dont understand why people condemn games because of their sexual content but can bare with a manly man slizing people in two with a chain saw.

 

[antipunt]

Guess it wasn't so short after all? I never really was good at that.

LOL, it's OK. I'm kind of the same way.

Quite frankly, I don't care to debate it, as I am not prepared and don't particularly want to do the research. However, I will not accept it at face value.

I understand your feelings and will, like you, "bow-out" of this 'debate'. With me, it's not so much the research...it's the 'rationality of fighting'. The prime-motive of our debate in the first place, was because you (understandably) misinterpreted my post as being directed at -everyone-, when in reality I was only really responding specifically towards Ben-neb's post. I also think we both realize this is a naturally controversial topic. For these reasons, our debate is somewhat pointless, as it arose from mainly, a general misunderstanding (I was never really trying to prove a stand-alone point to begin with; just trying to counter Ben-neb and, from what I interpreted anyway, malinformed moral-high-horsing).

So I guess...have a nice day? (Haha)

 

[historybuff]

...that sounds creepy to me.

Like those people that get those patches for the Sims so they can see them naked in the shower.

 

[Sick Sad World]

The games follow anime/erotic manga relationship logic, they are treated like interactive comics that lead to a relationship(intereactive jerk off material). A large number of eroge come from novels and manga, they are the sexual equivalent to point and click games and text adventure.

The article was funny until the "are you serious?" alarm started ringing when i read: "It suggests that all women are attainable if you learn the correct sequence of events to perform in their presence.Consequently, any rejection suffered in real life is more easily rationalized: It wasn't your fault; you simply didn't have the right code." cos the creators and players of those games dont see it as a guide to real life dating or as a depiction of real life women, the line between real and sim is quite clear.

The aim of these games is to create and choose the girl's you want to have a sex with, how else would they do it aside from sequenced events and relationship levels? and when they do it becomes a puzzle.

And to be honest, aren't relationships built on a series of events affected by your actions?

seorang nailed it on the head refering to gta and manhunt cos anyone could say that the creators and players see real life how they depict the games they make and play.

Eroge players dont see real life women as puzzles and submissive.
GTAIII players dont see real life people as target practice and prostitutes as fucking/punching bags.

They are just games.