A bit of deep thought for ya

[Lullabye]

If you know much about recent physics theories, think about senses in terms of the Higgs Field... I thought about it when they taught me it in A-Level physics and my brain nearly overloaded O.O
A pause for thought, mass is only a perception, and doesn't really exist, it's only caused by interactions with the Higgs Field... (brain dies)
EDIT: if particle physics is anything to go by. They built something worth 6 billion euros to try and justify it. Aww, bless

do go on. What is this higgs field. I'm terribly fascinated by this sorta thing and is exactly what i need to get me revved up for my experimental psych class.

 

[PurpleRain]

I'd agree with you. God is outside of the realm of logic because you can never disprove the existence of an all powerful being. If you accept that God can break the laws of nature and conceivabily due to his/her omnipotence then God could also exist in spite of any logical contradictions inherant in the concept of God.

Then his existence or lack thereof is of absolutely no consequence to us and if it decides to fuck us over then there is nothing to be done. Hence the term 'God'. So why even care?

Because you can hurt and destroy people. There is absolutly nothing stopping you from arresting a man's life, but don't you also feel that emotions and the emotions of others dictate a lot of our lives? If you don't or can't see, you must be cold.

im all for ditching logic XD

also i actually believe the soul exists, but the possibility of more senses? im open to it, but i cant think of what they would be

Neither would the blind animal be able to think of what the colour purple is.

This ia a thought not a good one but... more of a question on what you think. If you flip a coin to determine what you do in a circumstance the way the coin falls is that your god's almighty powers or a physical process that can only be explained by probability.... or somethin.

The way you flipped it, gravity, not much else. I don't feel god's hand has a say in things. And why would it?

I am really starting to sound like a hippy now, but I don't care!

NB: I realise I'm getting a little off the subject of whether God can be explained logically or not, but I interpreted this as a discussion of logic in our lives in general. Apologies if I was wrong.

Few things, I totally agree with you. Hippy is good. And this topic was meant for further thinking, aka what love is.

...because it is my right.

So, because it is your right to think, god doesn't exist?

No. Because it is my right to have my own opinions and beliefs, I choose to believe that God doesn't exist. Because it is my right to have my own opinions and beliefs. /recap

So what do you think about the universe then? I'm curious is all. I haven't conformed to any religion, and don't think of god as... well, god. Just a massively powerful beingthat surpases all that we think and can believe with our tiny brains.

 

[Zacharine]

Otherwise an interesting OP, but with one tiny mistake...

You can prove ANYTHING with pure logic. Since logic by itself makes no stance regarding the validity of the premises the logical chain is built upon (And simply assumes them wrong/right), I can quite easily prove I'm the king of the universe.

Premise 1. The Escapist Magazine Forum writer by the nick SakSak is the only brunette in existance.
Premise 2. The king of the universe is a brunette.
Conclusion 1. SakSak is the king of the universe.

See, easy. But we all know this to be false in reality. Why? Premise 1 is easy to prove wrong and we have no way to prove premise 2 correct or incorrect. The problem with metaphysical is that you cannot in any way, shape or form determine the validity of the premises, i.e. the existance of a god, the existance of an itelligent creator, universal design comittee, all the ghosts of ancestors ganging up to do some serious metaphysical voodoo etc.

Therefore, any logical chain of though regarding the metaphysical remains a matter of speculation.

As an FYI, I'm an agnostic atheist.

 

[PurpleRain]

Otherwise an interesting OP, but with one tiny mistake...

You can prove ANYTHING with pure logic. Since logic by itself makes no stance regarding the premises the logical chain is built upon (And simply assumes them wrong/right), I can quite easily prove I'm the king of the universe.

This is quite narrow minded of you. How do you prove something utterly illogical with logic?

EDIT I reread what you wrote. What I mean is, how can you try to understand something that is beyond what we know and can comprehend with logic or science?

 

[youalleverybody]

Well i guess religion HELPS people and has NEVER hurt anyone right? Seriously, those witches had it coming...

 

[Anachronism]

As an FYI, I'm an agnostic atheist.

No such thing. An agnostic is undecided; an atheist does not believe in God. You can't be both.

Otherwise an interesting OP, but with one tiny mistake...

You can prove ANYTHING with pure logic. Since logic by itself makes no stance regarding the premises the logical chain is built upon (And simply assumes them wrong/right), I can quite easily prove I'm the king of the universe.

This is quite narrow minded of you. How do you prove something utterly illogical with logic?

I agree with Rain on this one; there are plenty of things you can't explain by logic. Continuing with the theme of my previous posts, how do you explain love and friendship by logic? I won't go into the reasons why I'd argue you can't, because I'd just be repeating myself.

I'm interested to hear your point of view, SakSak, but I just don't see how everything can be explained by logic. Religion, for instance. How do you logically explain a belief in a higher power when there has been no tangible evidence for its existence?

 

[dmase]

This ia a thought not a good one but... more of a question on what you think. If you flip a coin to determine what you do in a circumstance the way the coin falls is that your god's almighty powers or a physical process that can only be explained by probability.... or somethin.

The way you flipped it, gravity, not much else. I don't feel god's hand has a say in things. And why would it?

NO thoughts about how your mind could manipulate your "luck" with one of its non physical senses. Or how the big behomth himself may decide that your deserve to go down the forboding dark alley, based on a coin flip.

 

[PurpleRain]

Well i guess religion HELPS people and has NEVER hurt anyone right? Seriously, those witches had it coming...

Eh? You're getting a few things confused. I tried to make clear that it can help people. Individuals. But I wouldn't blame what happened in Salem or elsewhere on Religion. It was merely a tool to focus superstion amd fear through. Look at the inquisistion. I'm sure they missed a few parts of the bible.

This ia a thought not a good one but... more of a question on what you think. If you flip a coin to determine what you do in a circumstance the way the coin falls is that your god's almighty powers or a physical process that can only be explained by probability.... or somethin.

The way you flipped it, gravity, not much else. I don't feel god's hand has a say in things. And why would it?

NO thoughts about how your mind could manipulate your "luck" with one of its non physical senses. Or how the big behomth himself may decide that your deserve to go down the forboding dark alley, based on a coin flip.

I chose the latter of the choices (physical process) but now you're talking about luck and outcomes there of that may have changes in your life? Am I right? Because if you're talking about changes, hindging on little things like the flip of a coin, I have had a major one recently.

 

[Lullabye]

Hokay then. uhmmmm....first i hope you realize that you cannot have conscious thought without logic. Animals are stupid, but they are logical.
Any who, "But you can't deny a presents of something great and amazing that lives on planes without logic."
uh, yes i can. You see Purple, there is no real point to anything. Because of that anything can happen. So yes it is very possible and even likely that everything wasn't created. It just happened. The whole god argument isn't actually that deep. You said it yourself "I find religion only helps to serve us"
Now you said that god and religion are 2 different things. Which is true, but so is science and logic. But you can't have one without the other. In exception of course, to atheist religions, but they've never had to kill in the name of some imaginary being. SO heres a bit of logic for ya that will do nothing but better this world.
Fuck religion. All of it. WE don't need it. If there is a god(however unlikely) it hasn't shown itself(not counting obviously the chosen few who see him in a pretzel) so is therefore of no consequence. Omnipotent deities are out of our control and comprehension. So i say we all stop time wasting worship. And learn everything we can about this universe and life and existence. Then when thats said and done and we are all nothing but clouds of floating energy and immortal, then, if we haven't already, we can find god, and the ultimate meaning.
(oh and this is something else I've need to get off my chest. When religious individuals use the argument,"...how can something so beautiful have come to exist if not by god?" They seem to forget the point of evolution. See we evolved so that we would interpret the world and other things as "beautiful". I mean, its not very good for survival if you think of everything you see as ugly. We evolved to match the world, not the other way around.

I see what you're getting at, but so many things you say can go passed you and so much deeper to the point I'm not sure. Aka, your last statment on art and beauty.

You're right by understanding that I feel as if religion andgod are two seperate things, but why so quick to down religion? It's a way of thinking incorporated to help people. Sometimes it really doesn't but to individuals, it can get them through life. From Taoists to Judaism, they are all ways of faith and belief. It may not apply to you, and like I said, can disprove a lot of it with logic, but it still can help people.

yes yes , i know how good religion can be, i go to a Christian school. And now-a-days, it doesn't get much better. look i guess what i'm getting at is this. Gods existence is irrelevant. Believing in him or not will have no consequence. If he reigns down molten fire because we dont care about him anymore then what does that tell you? the problem people have is that they try to attribute human qualities to god. The bible says god made man in his image......The bible also says that we need to eat crackers in order to dissipate the sin we are all born with because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat a magical fruit. And people believe it. I wouldn't have a problem with religion if I knew that everybody out there was smart, and wasn't susceptible to the basic human instincts tat drive people to make religion, and the kkk and other oppressive organizations.
You know religion was created as a way to explain things. Thats still what it's used for. But it uses belief and hope(both totally illogical, though hope has never killed anyone...I hope.) and plays on peoples emotions and lack of understanding.
If i had my way, I'd operate on and breed out all people who are a)ignorant and stupid and have no wish to change b)have to much of a certain chemical that makes them overly...whatever. Balance man, we need balance.
No more zealots or killing in the name of an imaginary friend(at least not god anyway..) No more waging war over pieces of dirt. We'd have nothing to do but learn and learn and learn. Of course, I'm not talk'n robots or anything cause then life would be boring(also without some sorta stress, we'd all die young.) but I think we could do without much of the emotional distress that causes people to resort to religion and illogical speculation(of which we have no need anymore). I just wish we'd grow up enough to do this.
but alas, since everyone is simply set in the ways of Darwin, then the least we could do is achieve a sort of world piece for goddamn once. Starting with North Korea. Put down your nukes.
Also, religion is the very thing that caused 9-11. So as much as it helps, it hurts alot more.

 

[randommaster]

Well i guess religion HELPS people and has NEVER hurt anyone right? Seriously, those witches had it coming...

Eh? You're getting a few things confused. I tried to make clear that it can help people. Individuals. But I wouldn't blame what happened in Salem or elsewhere on Religion. It was merely a tool to focus superstion amd fear through. Look at the inquisistion. I'm sure they missed a few parts of the bible.

People are naturally greedy bastards, which is what society beats out of people. Without society, if you want to do something you do it. Other people's societies, however, are where everrything bad comes from, and if they have cool stuff, then that's a bonus. When society fails to keep people from being greedy bastards, then you get crusades, and wars, and whatnot.

The witch hunts were about people not wanting to share their society with The Enemy, even if the New Testament promotes peace and understanding.

 

[PurpleRain]

Snip

You're very negative and close minded on the subject. I thought of this a lot recently, and come to realise, religion is a way to learn. It's just down to the people to make the choices if they gain knowledge out of it. Those zealots, if not for religion would be zealots of other things. The bible as far as I can see are a bunch of guidelines, a few stroies with some neat morals.

(And people, let's NOT single it only of Christianity. I'd like some more variety. I never had another influence of religion in my life and would love to hear some)

Well i guess religion HELPS people and has NEVER hurt anyone right? Seriously, those witches had it coming...

Eh? You're getting a few things confused. I tried to make clear that it can help people. Individuals. But I wouldn't blame what happened in Salem or elsewhere on Religion. It was merely a tool to focus superstion amd fear through. Look at the inquisistion. I'm sure they missed a few parts of the bible.

People are naturally greedy bastards, which is what society beats out of people. Without society, if you want to do something you do it. Other people's societies, however, are where everrything bad comes from, and if they have cool stuff, then that's a bonus. When society fails to keep people from being greedy bastards, then you get crusades, and wars, and whatnot.

The witch hunts were about people not wanting to share their society with The Enemy, even if the New Testament promotes peace and understanding.

You're talking human nature. I fail to see where religion comes into this. We've also waged wars over money, land and power. Not just societies with a religious hold.

 

[7moreDead_v1legacy]

So why are we only limited to five senses? That can't be all of them? There's more. I find it kind of close-minded to think otherwise.

To be fair, there's actually 7 senses. People forget the sense of vertigo, or how up you are, and your sense of balance.

More, actually. While the number itself hasn't been decided on due to debate over what constitutes a sense, the agreed minimum number is nine: touch, taste, sight, hearing, smell, equilibrioception, proprioception, nocioception and thermoception.

I am going to stick with 5 Cause I can't say the others on the best of days! (But yes I agree) =)

I think I have the gist of this topic but my apologies if I am off track...Blame the heat and a lack of kip last night.

God in my eyes is a fabrication of a persons solutions to their fears/shortcomings/downfall and so on...See it as a self made pick me up. Having the believe that something is out there looking out for you - Too ask for help or to blame when shit goes tits up.

Religion or at least a selection considering how many different types there are, is then a spin off of this collective scape goat - Spinning the needs of law's in to a tale of crime and punishment, on to a collective believe in a higher being, that is for all lack of proper substance, an imaginary best friend...

Am I on topic, or should I give up and pretend I am doing some work?

 

[Toners]

If you know much about recent physics theories, think about senses in terms of the Higgs Field... I thought about it when they taught me it in A-Level physics and my brain nearly overloaded O.O
A pause for thought, mass is only a perception, and doesn't really exist, it's only caused by interactions with the Higgs Field... (brain dies)
EDIT: if particle physics is anything to go by. They built something worth 6 billion euros to try and justify it. Aww, bless

do go on. What is this higgs field. I'm terribly fascinated by this sorta thing and is exactly what i need to get me revved up for my experimental psych class.

well the Higgs Field is quite difficult to explain, and i haven't done this for a year, but...
Basically from what I understand, all the elemental particles (i.e. particles that can't be split down any further) don't have mass. The theory is that when these particles interact with the Higgs Field, they are slowed down from the speed of light and as such gain mass from the theory of relativity equation. This causes "existence" as we know it, supposedly. Basically, mass is an effect of the slowing down of elemental particles... at least I think that's what it is. The best way to visualise this is to imagine yourself in a swimming pool. If you stood completely still (i.e. particles inside you not vibrating, temperature at absolute zero) you would cease to exist. Since you are moving inside this field, particles travelling between infinitely small layers of Higgs Bosons (like yourself in comparison to the water molecules in the pool) will have the mass attribute.
If anyone has a better explanation without referring to an outside source, please call bullshit on me and put something better up, but not a massive splurge of scientific jargon, please

 

[PurpleRain]

I am on topic, or should I give up and pretend I am doing some work?

There's not a one set topic here. I want to hear people's opinion on things.

 

[Nmil-ek]

No one is trying to disprove god what would be the point? Religion makes the claim there is a god, science says its unlikely that there is the burden of proof falls on one making the claim. You cant just sweep logic aside like that, outside the scientific method and the world before us we have no concept yes that?s because it is impossible for us to do anything outside the spectrum we are within that argument is a fallacy. You cant disprove god, you cant disprove the giant death machine from mars either, doesn?t mean the odds are it exists.

 

[Lullabye]

I'd agree with you. God is outside of the realm of logic because you can never disprove the existence of an all powerful being. If you accept that God can break the laws of nature and conceivabily due to his/her omnipotence then God could also exist in spite of any logical contradictions inherant in the concept of God.

Then his existence or lack thereof is of absolutely no consequence to us and if it decides to fuck us over then there is nothing to be done. Hence the term 'God'. So why even care?

Because you can hurt and destroy people. There is absolutly nothing stopping you from arresting a man's life, but don't you also feel that emotions and the emotions of others dictate a lot of our lives? If you don't or can't see, you must be cold.

im all for ditching logic XD

also i actually believe the soul exists, but the possibility of more senses? im open to it, but i cant think of what they would be

Neither would the blind animal be able to think of what the colour purple is.

This ia a thought not a good one but... more of a question on what you think. If you flip a coin to determine what you do in a circumstance the way the coin falls is that your god's almighty powers or a physical process that can only be explained by probability.... or somethin.

The way you flipped it, gravity, not much else. I don't feel god's hand has a say in things. And why would it?

I am really starting to sound like a hippy now, but I don't care!

NB: I realise I'm getting a little off the subject of whether God can be explained logically or not, but I interpreted this as a discussion of logic in our lives in general. Apologies if I was wrong.

Few things, I totally agree with you. Hippy is good. And this topic was meant for further thinking, aka what love is.

...because it is my right.

So, because it is your right to think, god doesn't exist?

No. Because it is my right to have my own opinions and beliefs, I choose to believe that God doesn't exist. Because it is my right to have my own opinions and beliefs. /recap

So what do you think about the universe then? I'm curious is all. I haven't conformed to any religion, and don't think of god as... well, god. Just a massively powerful beingthat surpases all that we think and can believe with our tiny brains.

1) Now, this just shows how much faith you have in humanity when you say "If there is no god, whats stopping us from killing one another?" Well, for one, you'd be surprised at how many people like to have sex. Can't have sex if there is no one to do it with now can ya? Fact o the matter is, people have been killing each other for....well, since we started as a species i guess. We've even killed in the name of gods. Are you telling me it's okay to kill if god says so? And if you say yes, then by that logic, if anybody who I perceive as better than me or who has power over me says its okay to kill then it's a okay! I mean, if we were made to do gods bidding then whats the point of free will?
2)Yes, I do feel that what others do has a huge impact on your life. But whats that got to do with god?
3) on your last point there, your both wrong. "having a right" is a subjective concept and doesn't actually exist. How can you have a right when nothing is stopping you or limiting you besides yourself and other people?(other people can be dealt with) So no, you dont have a right to your own opinions and beliefs. But then, why do you need one?

 

[PurpleRain]

well the Higgs Field is quite difficult to explain, and i haven't done this for a year, but...
Basically from what I understand, all the elemental particles (i.e. particles that can't be split down any further) don't have mass. The theory is that when these particles interact with the Higgs Field, they are slowed down from the speed of light and as such gain mass from the theory of relativity equation. This causes "existence" as we know it, supposedly. Basically, mass is an effect of the slowing down of elemental particles... at least I think that's what it is. The best way to visualise this is to imagine yourself in a swimming pool. If you stood completely still (i.e. particles inside you not vibrating, temperature at absolute zero) you would cease to exist. Since you are moving inside this field, particles travelling between infinitely small layers of Higgs Bosons (like yourself in comparison to the water molecules in the pool) will have the mass attribute.
If anyone has a better explanation without referring to an outside source, please call bullshit on me and put something better up, but not a massive splurge of scientific jargon, please

I've heard a bit about absolute zero (and by that I mean, it was on TV and I was semi destracted by staring longingly into a girls eyes, BUT-) and so what you're saying, is that if we do achieve that, and stop the particles from vibrating, without mass they... I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN! My words trip and fail to create the doings in my head. I am very interested though.

 

[Moccamonster]

I understand your point, but in all honesty, i only try to disprove God when i'm challenged.

Like when i'm having a discussion with someone about, say, abortion, and suddenly a random christian barges in and says that's against the will of God.
I try to be reasonable, but when you constantly hear people ramble about how God is an almighty figure whom we should honor till enternity, then that turns me into a ranting version of the Hulk.

Because the bible and christians constantly disprove themselves i personally find it hard to believe that the bible is actually true.

For example, we should all help our fellow man, but donating organs is NO. Why is that?
Love thy fellow neighbour, unless he's homosexual. Why is that?!
God is a compasionat being who all loves us a big huggy bunch, but he still sends people to hell. Why the fuck is that?
God has given us free will, but if you so much as DARE to differentiate from all the rules and laws he has created, then you'll go to hell!

And i can go on for hours.


However, the answer to the question "does God exist", is only 1 simple sentence:
I'll see about that when i die.

 

[Anachronism]

Also, religion is the very thing that caused 9-11. So as much as it helps, it hurts alot more.

Wrong. Insane fundamentalists with corrupted understandings of the Qu'ran caused 9/11. Do you know what "Islam" is Arabic for? "Peace". Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it support or condone the killing of others for your beliefs; it's as against killing as Christianity, or any religion is. If the Qu'ran commanded Muslims to kill Christians, why does it acknowledge Jesus as a prophet of God?

Islam is always in favour of peace between different religions, and between all people. Religion is a way to gain an understanding of the world and of ourselves that we could not obtain through purely logical means. You cannot take a minority of fundamentalists who believe that people of other religions should be killed and use them as a way of saying "religion is wrong". They are a tiny minority who have been taught false religion by hate-filled zealots.