A bit of deep thought for ya

[scotth266]

If God were to be something physical, he would be the entire state of existance (omnipresent and omnipotent). Therefore, it will always be impossible to "prove" God, because you would need to be outside the current state of existance, something which is impossible.

 

[Sindre1]

You know why some people hate religion? Its not fun getting it pushed down your throat.
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself!

 

[Uncompetative]

This is just a little something I've been thinking up... Perhaps its physical side it us (animals, planets, rocks, planets, space dust, atoms, etc) but... yeah. It defies logic that if witnessing it, it would destroy people's minds. We're too dependent on this logic we have.

If your God is omnipresent (in all things), do you consider yourself to be apart from God? Is God in you?

Where is freewill?

Where does God's omniscient omnipresence end and your consciousness begin?

How do you know your thoughts, your reasoning, is your own?

 

[PurpleRain]

Don't debate existance, reality, religion or anything concerning related topics.

I actually know the answers to these things.
None of you do.
I don't know EVERYTHING but I know what's what.
There is no god.
No afterlife.
No man but I can say without doubt that there is absolutely no god, no fate and no course of action but that we manifest.
Nobody can disprove or prove god, some may deeply beleive they are right, but everyone is wrong, the athiests and agnostics are much closer to the truth, but they are wrong.
All you people are doing is taking guesses
I know the truth
None of you do


So shut up and get on with your lives

Ahh... okay. Moving on now.

That's what seems to be the misunderstanding here. By logic itself you cannot prove anything about the real world. All you can get with logic and philosophy is 'I think, therefore I am' before you have to make assumptions. And logic cannot be used to determine the validity of those assumptions. You need something else to test them with, usually our senses and some kind of physical evidence.

One of my assumptions is that the universe as mostly correctly presented by my senses is in fact real and by examining it I can make predictions of it. In essence, I assume that the 'Matrix-scenario' is untrue.

Again, you have proved my point. You have stated that you view the universe to how your sense and physical evidence. I have said, this is where logic dwells. It ends here too. I'm talking things beyond our senses and physical planes. Logic no longer applies.

Okay, a debate about religion is quite uninteresting but a debate regarding the applicability of logic....Ahh. Here's the interesting thing, how can you say logic no longer applies?

By what basis do you make that statement?

Well, firstly I couldn't imagine what illogical things could be. But it seems strange to me that everything ends with logic. There is an infinity universe. Time and space travel forever. We have spent an entire history of man trying to prove certain things such as the formentioned and have come up with nothing but a system to monitor it. These things are so grand and big, but we are used to them. I'm really just saying, things can't just exist here and now. Not just in atoms. We are physical creatures and only live in a physical sense. There has to be more. Things we can't preceive. It's not an agrument to prove me right, but to open your mind to an infiniy of possibilities out there.

If God were to be something physical, he would be the entire state of existance (omnipresent and omnipotent). Therefore, it will always be impossible to "prove" God, because you would need to be outside the current state of existance, something which is impossible.

I'm arguing that is impossible for us meat bags.

You know why some people hate religion? Its not fun getting it pushed down your throat.
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself!

I have no idea what that has to do with anything in this thread.

This is just a little something I've been thinking up... Perhaps its physical side it us (animals, planets, rocks, planets, space dust, atoms, etc) but... yeah. It defies logic that if witnessing it, it would destroy people's minds. We're too dependent on this logic we have.

If your God is omnipresent (in all things), do you consider yourself to be apart from God? Is God in you?

Where is freewill?

Where does God's omniscient omnipresence end and your consciousness begin?

How do you know your thoughts, your reasoning, is your own?

I think this is too big to say anything really. I feel we have our own free will. Perhaps we are god, a form of brian wave. We could be an aftermath of it just floating by. It might even feed off our emotions, even fear and anger, to some major pleasure beyond any we can feel.

See what I'm doing? I'm saying that it may be so amazing that we don't and can't understand.

 

[Moccamonster]

Snip

Okay, now I feel you're ignoring what I was saying and sort of proving it. I said scared people cling to logic as it has bounds and is safe.

The universe is boundless. Why should logic apply to everything on every plane of existance passed that of physical?

I'm not talking just god either (and you have some fixation that I mean white bearded man that made humans out of clay) I'm talking everything.

I will waste my life on this for it seems to build me as a character, my soul and my mind.

Sorry, kinda mellowed out right now, so my blurbering doesn't always make sense.


People cling to logic because it is the better option for them.
I would rather believe in logic then God, an endless force, or things that go above the planes of existence.

This is probably a fault in me as a person rather then any fault in your argument, but logic always exists.

You say the universe is boundless. Assuming it is, why does that go beyond logic?
There are surely more then we can perceive, but they all make sense in one way or another, even if you have to research it for a million years before you can find any logical connections between one another.

And using this to build your character, you should ask yourself if this is worth it. Wouldn't you rather fixate on actual problems rather then thinking about 'planes of existence'? Because it's not a philosofist who'se gonna cure cancer...


Now either this is a decent response, or i offically have no clue what you're aiming for.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

*Snip*

I think you're confusing physical evidence for logic. Physical evidence is what we can sense. Logic's just the thought process - the understanding of something. Physical evidence isn't the only kind of demonstration needed for logic - you can use logic on moral debates, you'd have to, but physical evidence doesn't always enter into it. It's why you can be a philosopher and not a logical positivist.

You can say there's no evidence for a god - but if a god were beyond logic, how would that work, exactly? Gods aren't beyond logic, they're the invention of pre-scientific logic. People used to, and still do, treat the issue of god with logic. If you went back 1000 years and told the kings and priests that their god was improvable with logic, they'd string you up for heresy!

We know better now, thus you put god "off-limits" from logic. Now he's safe.

 

[Tharwen]

No god exists, because there is simply no more room for one after you fill in the universe with the laws, rules and facts that we now know and didn't when they were created. Religion is a method of making large groups of people willingly remain under control. If you can convince someone that there is no hope of resisting the leader of a society, that person will never try to do it. Why should the same logic not apply to a god?

Before we understood why things happened (e.g. why the Sun comes up, why volcanoes erupt, how people are born etc.), it was necessary to attribute them to a higher being or force. In modern society there is no need for this as we can explain things so much more precisely with modern knowledge (note that logic hasn't changed since religion was founded, but the things it has to deal with have).

Life is pointless. I don't mean this in a depressive sense, but simply in the sense that we have no purpose and are in fact a collection of amazingly complex reactions and charges that create, to themselves, the semblance of sentience. Nothing matters, but our brains have evolved (quite unintentionally) to be able to convince ourselves that it does.

Slightly more trivially, and though it is really obvious once you consider it, if, for example, you were to say, "It hasn't rained for days" and in the next hour or so it began to rain, you would be likely to attribute it to (bad) luck. It would in fact be only because you had begun to think about how it hadn't rained and thus you noticed more easily when it next did. It is likely that it had rained at some point recently, but because you were gaming inside (or whatever) you didn't notice.



I'd love to see more people understanding this as well as several on this thread.

 

[PurpleRain]

Snip

Okay, now I feel you're ignoring what I was saying and sort of proving it. I said scared people cling to logic as it has bounds and is safe.

The universe is boundless. Why should logic apply to everything on every plane of existance passed that of physical?

I'm not talking just god either (and you have some fixation that I mean white bearded man that made humans out of clay) I'm talking everything.

I will waste my life on this for it seems to build me as a character, my soul and my mind.

Sorry, kinda mellowed out right now, so my blurbering doesn't always make sense.


People cling to logic because it is the better option for them.
I would rather believe in logic then God, an endless force, or things that go above the planes of existence.

This is probably a fault in me as a person rather then any fault in your argument, but logic always exists.

You say the universe is boundless. Assuming it is, why does that go beyond logic?
There are surely more then we can perceive, but they all make sense in one way or another, even if you have to research it for a million years before you can find any logical connections between one another.

Now either this is a decent response, or i offically have no clue what you're aiming for.

That was a good response. Though science and research has to be based on laws right? What if things defied those laws?

I would love to explain and argue further, but bed beckons me. Thanks for this anyway.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

If it can be measured (infinity is a measurement) it is real and therefore logical. Because we dont understand why it does it doesnt make something illogical. If it consistently acts/reacts in a reliable pattern then it is explainable.

We can explain things that can't be measured. Death isn't illogical, but you can't measure that. You're either dead or your not. Evolutionary theory can't be measured, we either evolved from our ancestors or not.

If that was a rule for reality and logic, logic would be quite limited.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

That was a good response. Though science and research has to be based on laws right? What if things defied those laws?

I would love to explain and argue further, but bed beckons me. Thanks for this anyway.

In that case, you just revise the "laws" or find out why something appears to be violating those laws, until you get an answer that works repeatably and under scrutiny. You don't throw science away completely just because something's incomplete - you revise it. That's why it's science.

 

[Zacharine]

Well, firstly I couldn't imagine what illogical things could be.

Congratulations, you understand that you are essentially a logical being.

But it seems strange to me that everything ends with logic.

But everything doesn't. Logic isn't some kind of property of space-time or matter/energy. Remove all thinking minds from the universe and you ahve removed logic. Yet the universe will still stand.

There is an infinity universe.

This is actually wrong, we have quite a good idea of the total size of the universe. Infinity exists only as a concept.

Time and space travel forever. We have spent an entire history of man trying to prove certain things such as the formentioned and have come up with nothing but a system to monitor it.

Actually we have done more than that. We have managed to prove that the universe did begin. Not a small feat. And since the universe has a beginning, it isn't infinite. It can never be infinite as long as it expands with finite speed. Even with an infinity of time, the universe would still have a measurable size. Even the current size might be mind-boggling, but it can be presented as a number.

These things are so grand and big, but we are used to them. I'm really just saying, things can't just exist here and now. Not just in atoms. We are physical creatures and only live in a physical sense. There has to be more. Things we can't preceive. It's not an agrument to prove me right, but to open your mind to an infiniy of possibilities out there.

This is an interesting proposition. 'There has to be more' exactly what makes you think that? Is the currently detectable universe not large enough? Is it not exiting enough? Is it not grand enough? Is it not complex enough? Is the intricate dance of forces keeping a simple helium-atom together not facisnating enough?

Is the barely understood concept of energy=matter=energy, sometimes both simultaneously, not mysterious enough?

Why must there be more?

I'm open to possibilities, but to so strongly state that there has to be more...Especially when that something is non-detectable as well.

That's generally known as gullibility. After all, the diamond ring the ragged street peddler is selling for only 70 dollars is really a diamond. It does sparkle nicely and there has to be something more to it than simple polished glass...

 

[AngloDoom]

We're too dependent on this logic we have.

Since this is essentially a philosophical discussion, you can't use logic in philosophy; it doesn't work like that. Things like faith, love, friendship: none of these things have any logical basis, and yet everyone experiences them to some degree or another.

Call me ignorant, but I'd actually disagree. Again, I'm stating my opinion, so please don't view this as any sort of 'attack' on you or the such.

Anyway, I don't believe that things are 'logical' and 'illogical', I simply believe there is logic, unless there is a kind of abnormality such as a mental disorder. Emotion is logical, as far as I see. Friendships are formed to keep us close and to encourage social unity; in terms of nature and instincts, we are a social race and as such we need unity. We have no natural weapons, so we have numbers and a developed language to allow us to communicate efficiently. Friendships help keep us alive, back in ye olde times before we started making lightbulbs and cars.

Similarly, we are a curious race; our inquisitive nature allows us to make the most of our environment. Chimpanzees are not born knowing what food is ripe or poisonous, they try it and through their success and failures they teach their offspring. Without a curious nature, we'd probably still be back at the stage before fire. We yearn to learn as much as we can, and not understanding leaves us somewhat empty and often stressed. Faith is a way of filling in a lot of those 'gaps' we have. We'll probably never know how the universe came to be, but if we use faith then we fill in the blanks. This is why I personally believe that a lot of people who believe they have 'wasted' their lives or begin to question their purpose turn to religion; it's simply an easy way of fulfilling our urge to learn and curiosities.

As such, I simply do not see any 'illogical' behaviour. Even things such as throwing yourself under a car to save a child can be explained logically; some people do it before thinking about their personal safety. Sometimes its not a sacrifice, but a mistake. Other times, it is usually a 'vulnerable' or 'important' person we save. An example would be a child, who is vulnerable and the future of our race. We naturally care for children because they are our future; similar to how pack animals such as wolves will fiercely protect their young to the death. Women are also another 'important' exception; biologically speaking women are more necessary than men. You need approximately one man per five women to keep the population stable, and as such men are programmed to protect women. Hence 'do not hit girls', and hence why psychologists have found that women and men are treated different within laboratory experiments; psychologists (regardless of gender) were supportive and helped women during difficult challenges, or helped them in areas they were confused. However, men received little to no help, regardless of who was performing the experiment.

We obviously can go against our instincts, such as why women are hit, but this does not mean it is illogical. We don't do things without a reason, even a schizophrenic will believe what they are doing is right at the time; they are not 'controlled' by their affliction, but given different messages and input to act upon due to perceiving the world differently.


So, yeah...my opinion is that logical is basically all that exists in terms of behaviour; although I'd love to hear any different opinions.

 

[Sewora]

Haha, this is so simple..


"God" is a term coined by MANKIND, thus it falls within our limits of imagination. There cannot be a god without human logic, therefore- if you rule out logic, there will be no god.

God is a human answer to a riddled question. A solution to an unsolvable problem so to speak.

Discussing the existance of a god is as pointless as discussing whether or not water is essential to our survival.


If I call my box of juice "god" and worship it frequently, then it IS by human definiton a god of a kind. So god is whatever we make of it. If you believe in god, he exists. If you don't, he doesn't.

 

[Beltaine]

Everything can be proven or disproven logically.

The problem is finding the evidence that either proves or disproves.

Just because we haven't found the linking evidence does not mean that god exists or does not exist.

Abandoning all logic is not a matter of fear, it's a matter of being able to remain sane.

The post from the user claiming he knew the answers and we all knew nothing was immediately brushed aside. Why? Do you have proof that he was incorrect? or correct? If you are to abandon all logic, then for all sake of argument, he could be correct. However, he was shrugged off as being crazy, perhaps?

For the sake of argument, Jesus claimed he was the son of God. He preached and taught and built a group of followers based on the belief that his teachings were directly from God, be cause was actually God's son.

In a time where education was nonexistant, communication had to travel by foot or by animal, and science was the beginnings of alchemy and astronomy at best, Jesus was believed.

So, if there actually was a Son of God on Earth now, would anyone believe him?

If you must abandon all logic to find God, then you must abandon it in everything.

 

[Moccamonster]

Well, firstly I couldn't imagine what illogical things could be.

Congratulations, you understand that you are essentially a logical being.

But it seems strange to me that everything ends with logic.

But everything doesn't. Logic isn't some kind of property of space-time or matter/energy. Remove all thinking minds from the universe and you ahve removed logic. Yet the universe will still stand.

There is an infinity universe.

This is actually wrong, we have quite a good idea of the total size of the universe. Infinity exists only as a concept.

Time and space travel forever. We have spent an entire history of man trying to prove certain things such as the formentioned and have come up with nothing but a system to monitor it.

Actually we have done more than that. We have managed to prove that the universe did begin. Not a small feat. And since the universe has a beginning, it isn't infinite. It can never be infinite as long as it expands with finite speed. Even with an infinity of time, the universe would still have a measurable size. Even the current size might be mind-boggling, but it can be presented as a number.

These things are so grand and big, but we are used to them. I'm really just saying, things can't just exist here and now. Not just in atoms. We are physical creatures and only live in a physical sense. There has to be more. Things we can't preceive. It's not an agrument to prove me right, but to open your mind to an infiniy of possibilities out there.

This is an interesting proposition. 'There has to be more' exactly what makes you think that? Is the currently detectable universe not large enough? Is it not exiting enough? Is it not grand enough? Is it not complex enough? Is the intricate dance of forces keeping a simple helium-atom together not facisnating enough?

Is the barely understood concept of energy=matter=energy, sometimes both simultaneously, not mysterious enough?

Why must there be more?

I'm open to possibilities, but to so strongly state that there has to be more...Especially when that something is non-detectable as well.

That's generally known as gullibility. After all, the diamond ring the ragged street peddler is selling for only 70 dollars is really a diamond. It does sparkle nicely and there has to be something more to it than simple polished glass...

How is infinity but a mere concept.
So, our line of numbers ends somewhere?


ps, not a mathematician or anything, so mind my low education on infinity...

 

[Sewora]

I think it was Wilmhelm Von Humboldt in 1820-or-so who said that "Humans are only human because of our ability to speak.". And this falls within the same area.

If we stop what makes us human in a search for an answer to something we're obviously not supposed to know, then we've failed utterly. Because if we doesn't find a human answer to a human question, the answer is useless.

God is a human concept, because we invented him.


The question is not "Does god exist?", because he does, and has; Ever since we created him.

The question is "why does he exist?", now there's something to think about.


Edit:

"How is infinity but a mere concept.
So, our line of numbers ends somewhere?

ps, not a mathematician or anything, so mind my low education on infinity..."

Infinity is a concept, nothing we know of lasts infinate, everything has a beginning and an end.
Except for god, which is illogical, because the term "infininate" implies that god existed before god, and that doesn't work.

 

[Kell478]

Most Physicists believe in God or some form of ultimate single entity because the universe itself is so complex, with subtle nuances, that every question they answer 10 more questions come up. Einstein himself said "God did not throw dice with the Universe.". Everything does have a natural logic to it, just because we cannot see it or understand it does not mean it automatically doesn't. Logic doesn't bind us or shelter us from anything. In fact, the truth of the matter is that logic is scarier than mystisism or spirituality. The latter would have you believe that you are part of something, logic says you are a part of something, an insignificent part. What's scarier? "I am one with the Universe." or "Yes I am one with the Universe, but the Universe will get along with or with out me.". Many people experience things that they can't explain or don't even give a second thought. I don't understand JAVA or even electricity. Does that me everytime I turn on the computer or a light switch that I should get on my knees and that God. No. At the end of the day though I do get on my knees and pray and thank him for inspiring the men and women who did. Because when it comes down to it, God invented everything. We just discover his inventions.

 

[Moccamonster]

I think it was Wilmhelm Von Humboldt in 1820-or-so who said that "Humans are only human because of our ability to speak.". And this falls within the same area.

If we stop what makes us human in a search for an answer to something we're obviously not supposed to know, then we've failed utterly. Because if we doesn't find a human answer to a human question, the answer is useless.

God is a human concept, because we invented him.


The question is not "Does god exist?", because he does, and has; Ever since we created him.

The question is "why does he exist?", now there's something to think about.

But getting to a quote of Ceasar, if we invented God, then he is not a sentient being.
If he does not think, he does not exist...

 

[Zacharine]

How is infinity but a mere concept.
So, our line of numbers ends somewhere?
ps, not a mathematician or anything, so mind my low education on infinity...

That's just it, the line of numbers is nothing more than a concept, a derivative of human mind and imagination.