A bit of deep thought for ya

[GothmogII]

God is a nice justification to be a helpful and happy person in my sights.
When the [what comes off to be] nihlisticism of Atheism kinda points out to me is that there is no purpose to life and that compounded with Richard Dawkin's famous Bus posters "There probably is no God so go ahead and enjoy life" or something to that effect really annoys me because if there is no God, why would we justify any enjoyment whatsoever if it doesn't matter?

That's nice. How's it work for a believer though? If with atheism as you say, there can be no morality without god, then how can a believer justify their own? If the presumption is that he/it -does- exist, then if it were ever definitively proven to not exist, then what does that make anyone who had previously based their good natures and deeds on that existence?

Either both atheists, believers and humans in general are all subject to divinely inspired morality. Or they aren't.

Personally, I honestly don't know how to reconcile the idea with the fact that, there are quite clearly evil people in the world (as far as such are understood to be), which means, if morality is divinely inspired, then, it's more of a suggestion then something innate. If it were otherwise then free will is removed entirely from the matter and from what I've read, god doesn't work like that does he?

 

[Deacon Cole]

Also known as the Epicurean argument/paradox (after the philosopher Epicurus an all round nice chap into quantum physics and universal emancipation) who succinctly stated :-

'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?'

Yeah, I basically kit bashed that because I liked the line of reasoning, I just did not agree with the whole idea of god stopping evil. I'm not one of these people who expects god to stop the Vietnam War or to fix my car. Just let me know if it's there. Not much to ask and I have yet to be shown even that much.

 

[Ignignoct]

Snip

I'm more saying, logic is... well I think of it like this. Maths is a system to determine numbers. Though maths can't work out all. I wouldn't determine maths when laughing at a joke or finding art or colours interesting.

Logic can be used to identify and work out things in this plane. But what of others where logic is as useless as the maths formentioned.

Logic is good. Any thread that asks us to abandon logic in regards to God is always a bad thread. I do not see why we should stop using logic, it's worked well so far.

I'm saying. We may not to abandon logic to understand more of things not on physical planes. Spirits and souls, concepts of emotions and different understandings.

"Can't disprove God"

"What if things were +/- a sense?"

Deep thoughts? =p

I think you're confusing logic with strict math, physics, and science here and there.

It's logical to believe in god, after all, if he presents himself to Humanity.

It's also logical to not give a damn when hundreds of different sects of religions are all claiming to be the One True Faith without any demonstrable evidence.

I also think you're confusing god with religion.

Logic is good. Any thread that asks us to abandon logic in regards to God is always a bad thread.

It's also a bad idea for the christian apologist running that particular gambit. Like I said above, logic is just a formalized version of how we come to know or understand anything. Outside of this is delusion and insanity. So if god is outside of logic, then it's either a delusion or simply unknowable, making every religious text that describes this god a big, fat lie.

I really wish christian apologists would quit using this argument, but they've been using it for hundreds of years with no sign of slowing down.

I'm neither tlking Christianity. I also did say it would break your mind (or your ego. Though I mostly think that coming into conact would drive you insane, though, not in a negative way) in my OP.

So, don't give in to logic, and consider that everything came from a god that no one knows or can accurately articulate on?

I'm afraid there's no point in that.

Boil your view down to something pragmatic and applicable to life, please.

Edit: That was a bit knee-jerk of me. The first two sentences, anyway.

 

[PurpleRain]

Logic can be used to identify and work out things in this plane. But what of others where logic is as useless as the maths formentioned.

Look, this is not an issue of Strange Adventures. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Adventures] This is real life. Let's leave flights of fancy on the comic book page. What other planes? If logic does not apply, then they cannot be experienced.

I was thinking Weird Tales [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_Tales] but whatevs.

My point is to open your mind a bit. What makes the physical plane of being the only one? What can't there be layers we are not able (or do but not consciously) to know or feel?

So, don't give in to logic, and consider that everything came from a god that no one knows or can accurately articulate on?

I'm afraid there's no point in that.

Boil your view down to something pragmatic and applicable to life, please.

So you'll only take things to heart if they make sense and is fact as far as we know it?

You know my version of god could be the big bang. I never said god had to have a conscious understanding as we do.

 

[PurpleRain]

Double post! Damn, it's doing it again!

 

[Ignignoct]

So, don't give in to logic, and consider that everything came from a god that no one knows or can accurately articulate on?

I'm afraid there's no point in that.

Boil your view down to something pragmatic and applicable to life, please.

So you'll only take things to heart if they make sense and is fact as far as we know it?

You know my version of god could be the big bang. I never said god had to have a consious understanding as we do.

Aside from the trap of your absolutism that begs further hair-splitting, yes. My subconscious, instinct, and intuition fill in the gaps. It's not some deep profound life-changing epiphany; it's just over-analyzing the mundane, in my opinion. I feel like I'm watching someone build a tall sand castle next to a rising tide, that's all.

Why does any definition of your speculated god matter to anyone, aside from fluffy hypothetical-speak for the sake of fun? It has no practical use.

 

[Deacon Cole]

My point is to open your mind a bit.

Uhm.... uh-huh.

What makes the physical plane of being the only one?

You think this plane is purely physical?

What can't there be layers we are not able (or do but not consciously) to know or feel?

If we're not able to feel or know them, then what does it matter. Eating out your own grandmother may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'm not going to try to find out nor will I waste any time wondering about it.

 

[PurpleRain]

Human biochemical (pharmaceutical pyschology) and mechanical motion (Kinesiology) are reactions that are all measureable. Maths can determine a humerous joke, art is intrinsicly tied to maths (Da Vinci, blah blah blah, golden rectangles etc etc) & colours are measured on the colour scale which relates to visible light spectrum scale.

God is a concept of religion. Assuming a god exists, then religion is a concept of god. Either way the two are linked in the same way motoring is linked to automobiles.

How can you go insane in a non-negative way ? Again by definition insanity is a bad thing. Thats also a hell of a presumtion that the human mind cannot conceive of god (Wizard of Oz syndrome) given that the more legitimiate religions are based on human deification (Hindus and Buddhists) only christians beleive god will blind you and make you nuts (Ironic given the Torah has no issue and after all Christainity is a Jewish sect, God didnt seem to have any problems appearing in person until the New Testament.)

I was afraid someone was going to say that. It dawned on me later. But we can go into another discussion about brain chemistry effecting such things as love, and that would take us a full loop back to page 1.

I find they are two seperate things. A god is something with almighty power. A religion is something crafted by man as a form of belief system or faith.

Maybe you would come to understand the things that surpass you. I'm not really sure. It's more me thinking of a new level of thinking that is not the norm.

 

[Ignignoct]

My point is to open your mind a bit.

Uhm.... uh-huh.

What makes the physical plane of being the only one?

You think this plane is purely physical?

What can't there be layers we are not able (or do but not consciously) to know or feel?

If we're not able to feel or know them, then what does it matter. Eating out your own grandmother may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'm not going to try to find out nor will I waste any time wondering about it.

HAR!

I just told some kid in another thread that vaginas taste like chocolate milk.

We should hang out.

 

[PurpleRain]

My point is to open your mind a bit.

Uhm.... uh-huh.

What makes the physical plane of being the only one?

You think this plane is purely physical?

What can't there be layers we are not able (or do but not consciously) to know or feel?

If we're not able to feel or know them, then what does it matter. Eating out your own grandmother may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'm not going to try to find out nor will I waste any time wondering about it.

HAR!

I just told some kid in another thread that vaginas taste like chocolate milk.

We should hang out.

Real deep guys.

All I'm doing is trying to focus a thought in my head. To imagine what sort of things could surround our positions in the universe. if you don't want to be apart of it, I'm cool.

How dare you sully Weird Tales good name.

I honestly think you need to go away and clarify your position. Weeding through all the chaff I think your trying to say your a Deist, you beleive in a god that has no impact on the universe.

I would never!

Perhaps. I am just throwing things out there for brain food right now. I have yet to determine any position.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Thats odd in all civilised countries in the world they have a criteria for death to be declared. Soooooo measurement.

Evolution has stages so ...... measurement.

Im standing behind you in the queue to look up smart arse so please hurry up

No. Either you're dead, or you're not dead. You can't be a little dead. You can't be 80% dead. You can be dying, or brain dead, but those states aren't measurements, are they?

And while specimens can be plotted across a timeline - the actual theory of evolution, the idea, can't be quantified. Are you done?

 

[Delicious]

I see logic as our method of creating patterns to better understand our physical world. These patterns did not exist before we did, and as far as we know may not even exist at all. Logic is fallible, just like its creators, and should not be the ultimate method of defining anything beyond the physical and obvious as it is limited by our own understanding.

We cannot disprove God with logic because logic is a purely human idea, and is not applicable to something that we cannot make patterns about. People who propose ideas such as: "if God is omnipotent, can he make a rock he cannot lift? If he can not lift it, he is not omnipotent, and if he can not make it, he is not omnipotent" speak nothing of God's existence so much as they display their own limited and narrow understandings for they base this argument around the premise that if it does not make sense to them, it does not make sense at all.

 

[Ignignoct]

My point is to open your mind a bit.

Uhm.... uh-huh.

What makes the physical plane of being the only one?

You think this plane is purely physical?

What can't there be layers we are not able (or do but not consciously) to know or feel?

If we're not able to feel or know them, then what does it matter. Eating out your own grandmother may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'm not going to try to find out nor will I waste any time wondering about it.

HAR!

I just told some kid in another thread that vaginas taste like chocolate milk.

We should hang out.

Real deep guys.

All I'm doing is trying to focus a thought in my head. To imagine what sort of things could surround our positions in the universe. if you don't want to be apart of it, I'm cool.

How dare you sully Weird Tales good name.

I honestly think you need to go away and clarify your position. Weeding through all the chaff I think your trying to say your a Deist, you beleive in a god that has no impact on the universe.

I would never!

Perhaps. I am just throwing things out there for brain food right now. I have yet to determine any position.

Come now, you aren't truly that distracted by chocolate milk-flavored vaginas to answer any of my counter points to you, right? I mean, you're a really "deep" guy, and it shouldn't be a problem to elaborate on why you think it's important for people to consider the potential for a god, right?

I mean, if no one's allowed to pin down any solid information from you, then it's all ultimately in your head and nothing useful will come out of this thread =p.

So, again...

Define your hypothetical god in a matter that is useful for debate, vice the jello-defense of "well maybe god's not like that, maybe I'm using a different god."

 

[PurpleRain]

Define your hypothetical god in a matter that is useful for debate, vice the jello-defense of "well maybe god's not like that, maybe I'm using a different god."

MY hypothetical god is something I haven't made up yet. I never thought of god in the way of a heaven or angels. I don't believe in that. Though it doesn't mean I can't havea discussion about god.

I see logic as our method of creating patterns to better understand our physical world. These patterns did not exist before we did, and as far as we know may not even exist at all. Logic is fallible, just like its creators, and should not be the ultimate method of defining anything beyond the physical and obvious as it is limited by our own understanding.

We cannot disprove God with logic because logic is a purely human idea, and is not applicable to something that we cannot make patterns about. People who propose ideas such as: "if God is omnipotent, can he make a rock he cannot lift? If he can not lift it, he is not omnipotent, and if he can not make it, he is not omnipotent" speak nothing of God's existence so much as they display their own limited and narrow understandings for they base this argument around the premise that if it does not make sense to them, it does not make sense at all.

See, your first point I totally and utterly agree with. But as I see god as a creature with different planes, the second to me is justafiable. Maybe he (she/it) can't make a rock big enough for whatever physical possestion it has to pick it up, though it could still destroy it with powers beyong us.

 

[GothmogII]

Thats odd in all civilised countries in the world they have a criteria for death to be declared. Soooooo measurement.

Evolution has stages so ...... measurement.

Im standing behind you in the queue to look up smart arse so please hurry up

No. Either you're dead, or you're not dead. You can't be a little dead. You can't be 80% dead. You can be dying, or brain dead, but those states aren't measurements, are they?

And while specimens can be plotted across a timeline - the actual theory of evolution, the idea, can't be quantified. Are you done?

Yes they are states and as such can be placed on a scale and MEASURED.

I personally consider DNA to be a measure & therefore quantifiable spectrum of change.

Are you done? Thats a bit aggressive, if your going to get upset when someone points out a flaw in your arguement please dont participate.

Not really...I mean, yes, you can look what's come before and try to make measurements and conjecture based off that evidence, but you can't really say: This animal is going to look like this in X number of years. Can You?

As for the death bit...I don't think you disagree with that yourself yes? Dead is dead...pretty small scale I'd say: Alive - Dying - Dead. And even then, you get dying from a logical deduction based on presentable evidence 'This man has multiple gunshot wounds, he is dying'. Right?