A bit of deep thought for ya

[teisjm]

I think it's possible that other creatures have (or could have) other senses.

On the top of my mind i'm thinking stuff like

A sense that tells you how high (in the air) you are, or how deep (in water) you are. Sortof like beeing able to tell the athmospheric preassure precicely enough tp "use" it

A sense of direction, like a build in compas. Sortof wondering whether some sea animals have it since they can swim halfway across the world and find the beach at which they we're born.
I'm not talking about stuff like visual clues like navigating by the sun/stars, or figuring out directions by other stuff like moss grows on the north? side of trees. I'm talking about a sense, just like we see light and hear sound we could "sense" north.

But it hink that from a scientific point of view you could argue that if we're able to build a machine that can sense it, it's possible for a creature to have that sense as well.

Also, female intuition. I'm freaked out by the fact that my girlfriend seems to be able to read my mind sometimes.

 

[Zacharine]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

 

[Sneaklemming]

Isnt there like loads of things we cant see/feel/touch etc... like radiation and stuff?

 

[Moccamonster]

Correction; Time ends when sentinent beings ends. Time is an illusion we've created, so it ends when we end, because then none will be left to grasp it. Moving in on philosophical territory though

Yes, that is more philosophical, because how does time end without any sentient beings?

Let's say we rid our solar system of all sentient beings, assuming our solar system is where the universe ends(not saying it is).

Time would still go on. At time-unit A, Earth would be at location B.


Time still goes on.

 

[Moccamonster]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

But was there truly nothing before the big bang?

The bing bang just...happened?

Wouldn't that break the entire law that there can never be more or less atoms in the universe?


Again, not a physician or anything, so mind my stupidness..

 

[Zacharine]

I think it's possible that other creatures have (or could have) other senses.

On the top of my mind i'm thinking stuff like

A sense that tells you how high (in the air) you are, or how deep (in water) you are. Sortof like beeing able to tell the athmospheric preassure precicely enough tp "use" it

A sense of direction, like a build in compas. Sortof wondering whether some sea animals have it since they can swim halfway across the world and find the beach at which they we're born.
I'm not talking about stuff like visual clues like navigating by the sun/stars, or figuring out directions by other stuff like moss grows on the north? side of trees. I'm talking about a sense, just like we see light and hear sound we could "sense" north.

But it hink that from a scientific point of view you could argue that if we're able to build a machine that can sense it, it's possible for a creature to have that sense as well.

Also, female intuition. I'm freaked out by the fact that my girlfriend seems to be able to read my mind sometimes.

Of course, we have birds seeing in the ultraviolet band of radiation. Many birds also navigate using the magnetic field of the earth, having their very own internal compass to navigate by - many species can find with 100% accuracy the precise nest they left the past fall!

Yes, these things do exist. Pretty much anything nature can make use of, it does. Did you know there is a species of bacteria that eats pretty much only nylon? And nylon is a completely human made synthetic product... makes you think, doesn't it...

 

[teisjm]

Of course, we have birds seeing in the ultraviolet band of radiation. Many birds also navigate using the magnetic field of the earth, having their very own internal compass to navigate by - many species can find with 100% accuracy the precise nest they left the past fall!

Yes, these things do exist. Pretty much anything nature can make use of, it does. Did you know there is a species of bacteria that eats pretty much only nylon? And nylon is a completely human made synthetic product... makes you think, doesn't it...

If it's edible, something will eventually learn to live off of it.

 

[Sewora]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

But was there truly nothing before the big bang?

The bing bang just...happened?


Again, not a physician or anything, so mind my stupidness..

Again, exactly. You're right on spot. That's where the limit of human imagination ends.

We cannot imagine that nothing whatsoever existed, therefore we created god in that place.

The english Biologist J B S Haldane once said:
"The universe isn't just stranger than we imagine, its stranger than what we are ABLE to imagine!"

 

[Moccamonster]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

But was there truly nothing before the big bang?

The bing bang just...happened?


Again, not a physician or anything, so mind my stupidness..

Again, exactly. You're right on spot. That's where the limit of human imagination ends.

We cannot imagine that nothing whatsoever existed, therefore we created god in that place.

The english Biologist J B S Haldane once said:
"The universe isn't just stranger than we can imagine, its stranger than what we are ABLE to imagine!"

But saying that we replaced nothing with God, is assuming nothing has existed once.
However, can this be proven?

 

[Sewora]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

But was there truly nothing before the big bang?

The bing bang just...happened?


Again, not a physician or anything, so mind my stupidness..

Again, exactly. You're right on spot. That's where the limit of human imagination ends.

We cannot imagine that nothing whatsoever existed, therefore we created god in that place.

The english Biologist J B S Haldane once said:
"The universe isn't just stranger than we can imagine, its stranger than what we are ABLE to imagine!"

But saying that we replaced nothing with God, is assuming nothing has existed once.
However, can this be proven?

That's my point. We cannot prove it, because it's far beyond human understanding.

 

[Moccamonster]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

But was there truly nothing before the big bang?

The bing bang just...happened?


Again, not a physician or anything, so mind my stupidness..

Again, exactly. You're right on spot. That's where the limit of human imagination ends.

We cannot imagine that nothing whatsoever existed, therefore we created god in that place.

The english Biologist J B S Haldane once said:
"The universe isn't just stranger than we can imagine, its stranger than what we are ABLE to imagine!"

But saying that we replaced nothing with God, is assuming nothing has existed once.
However, can this be proven?

That's my point. We cannot prove it, because it's far beyond human understanding.

But saying humanity simply replaced it with (a) God, isn't a casual connection.

 

[rowan-thats-me]

im all for ditching logic XD

also i actually believe the soul exists, but the possibility of more senses? im open to it, but i cant think of what they would be

I dont think its possible to think what a new sense would be, just as its impossible to think up a new colour, every time I try my head just hurts a little bit

 

[Zacharine]

Final example: TIME.

Time, in any way, is infinite. Even if the universe would collapse, and existence is gone, you could still count on time...

No, it's called space-time for a reason. Time and space cannot be separated. There is no time before the big bang, since there was no space either.

Asking the very question 'what was before the big bang' is as meanigless as asking 'What is the differencce between an orange?' A required set of data is simply missing from the question.

So, time had a beginning. Therefore, not infinite. It began = not limitless = not infinite.

But was there truly nothing before the big bang?

The bing bang just...happened?

Wouldn't that break the entire law that there can never be more or less atoms in the universe?


Again, not a physician or anything, so mind my stupidness..

No, no think nothing of it. It's actually quite high level of physics to truly understand what this is all about.

But on to the answer. Even in perfectly newtonian physics, things might just happen with no visible reason. Much more so in the quantum realm of things, where effect actually sometimes might precede the cause!

In other words, an event can cause itself.

Boggles the mind doesn't it.

watch this video, might clarify things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnQxDVyd8M

"The Dome - Indeterminacy in Newtonian Physics"

So, we know effects can precede the cause. We also know (due to some deep physics) that the energy state of a vacuum is never zero. A pair of particles actually can come spontaneously into existance. But when they meet, they annihilate each other and return to the energy state they were in before. But, and this is the big but, this meeting of these particles, once born, is not necessitated. In essence, the tiny energy imbalance of vacuum can spontaneusly give birth to matter.

Something similar might have happened with the universe. We don't know.

Also, this might really clarify things in a manner that requires no physics education.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DB23537556D7AADB

"From Big Bang to Us -- Made Easy"

 

[Zacharine]

Also this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FPUutjtqfw&feature=related

"An Introduction to the Big Bang Theory (Part 1)"

Guys who know the stuff, explaining it in simple terms.

 

[Larenxis]

"because I cannot conceive God unless as existing, it follows that existence is inseparable from him, and therefore that he really exists: not that this is brought about by my thought, or that it imposes any necessity on things, but, on the contrary, the necessity which lies in the thing itself, that is, the necessity of the existence of God, determines me to think in this way: for it is not in my power to conceive a God without existence, that is, a being supremely perfect, and yet devoid of an absolute perfection, as I am free to imagine a horse with or without wings."

Huh. Looks like Descartes feels that God is subject to logic. Go him.

 

[Moccamonster]

Ok, my brain has started consuming itself right now, so i'm calling it a quits here.

Thanks for the great discussion everyone!

 

[CuddlyCombine]

This is just a little something I've been thinking up. While it really warrents no direct discussion, I would like to see some arguments raised or some more points expanded to get a more fixed idea on what's going on in my head.

More than happy to provide.

An animal born without eyes or any idea of sight, how would it understand light? It could not comprehend light or the spectrum or colours.
So why are we only limited to five senses? That can't be all of them? There's more. I find it kind of close-minded to think otherwise.

I've always used that same comparison. You have a point, though. Humans as a species are very limited; we see in 3D, and even then, only a limited spectrum. Compared to dogs, our olfactory and taste receptors are meaningless. Compared to bats, we can't hear a thing. We perceive the universe in a very unique view. This is why I'm agnostic; I feel that maybe there are forces we can't understand or comprehend, though there is always the possibility there aren't.

Logic can only prove things that are in the physical plane of existence. How do we know that we have more senses, or souls? To even think about it, you NEED to leave logic behind. Those that cling to it are too scared and want the shelter of something safe and familiar.

I love you. I've been making this argument for years, usually whenever a religion vs. science debate pops up. I always start my reply or insight by detailing how faith and logic are completely incompatible; to have faith is to rely on something completely alien to logic and any rational thought. People who live purely based in logic or faith are not experiencing life to the fullest, I think.

So how is it that people want to disprove god? You can disprove religion but not god. I find religion only helps to serve us. I find it is different to god. Religion, whether helpful or not, is something we made up for an understanding of the universe, faith, spiritual meaning. Seeing as it was written by the hand of man, it is a physical thing making it exist where logic rules. Thus Religion has to fight with logic and seeing as we as a race have excelled terrifically at logic and science, we find it too easy to disprove and prove things.

The reason that science, logic, and other rational processes can't disprove God is because they're not playing on the same field. If there was a God, He would not go by any established rules or processes we have. He would not follow logic. I mean, logic is a purely human construction; it isn't like the universe arbitrarily assigned it to all sentient species. Likewise, faith doesn't necessarily have to be omnipresent. There are other unfathomable aspects of life which we may not ever even know exist.

But you can't deny a presents of something great and amazing that lives on planes without logic. This is why I don't see god as any physical being, because something as great as that, and to live on every level of existence, to feel more than five senses, and to obtain more emotion, it can't be logical. Perhaps its physical side it us (animals, planets, rocks, planets, space dust, atoms, etc) but... yeah. It defies logic that if witnessing it, it would destroy people's minds. We're too dependent on this logic we have.

Personally, I don't think God exists; however, I don't mean that in quite the way most people do. See, existence is meaningless to the metaphysical, or at least, I think it is. Our idea of God is an abstract of emotions and ideals that we apply to a force we do not understand and cannot prove exists. However, I'm not saying God couldn't be real. Take your mind, for example; it doesn't exist as a spatio-temporal entity, yet you'd probably argue that it is fully real.

I like this topic, PurpleRain. Finally, something to provoke deep discussion! Unless it gets unseated by a thread asking me how often I have sex (which, for some reason, would be found to be more popular by the plebeians of these forums).

 

[Anarchemitis]

God is a nice justification to be a helpful and happy person in my sights.
When the [what comes off to be] nihlisticism of Atheism kinda points out to me is that there is no purpose to life and that compounded with Richard Dawkin's famous Bus posters "There probably is no God so go ahead and enjoy life" or something to that effect really annoys me because if there is no God, why would we justify any enjoyment whatsoever if it doesn't matter?

 

[AnGeL.SLayer]

Religion has nothing to do with logic...it all based on faith. Faith is basically leaving locig behind to believe with your heart rather than your mind.


^_^

 

[Larenxis]

God is a nice justification to be a helpful and happy person in my sights.
When the [what comes off to be] nihlisticism of Atheism kinda points out to me is that there is no purpose to life and that compounded with Richard Dawkin's famous Bus posters "There probably is no God so go ahead and enjoy life" or something to that effect really annoys me because if there is no God, why would we justify any enjoyment whatsoever if it doesn't matter?

You know, I kept trying to write things about "just being good 'cause it feels good", but God is a concept of pure good, a perfect being (not 'being' as in a person, but 'being' as in God is capable of the verb 'to be'). I don't think a God that judges what we do as being good or bad is necessary (or desirable, to some), but as God encapsulates absolute good, how can we have good without God?