A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

TheMysteriousGX

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See, I've *I* were in charge of the definitely really real national organization of antifa, I'd be getting some black bloc folks together to push back these fascists on whatever day they plan their next move.

You know, pull a "we have serious problems with the US government but we'll be fucked if we let these assholes tear it down and we obviously can't count on the Capitol Police" sort of thing. Make the fascists fight against some American flags.
 

Terminal Blue

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Problem with applying Dunning Kruger, only tends to be applicable when a person is clearly shown to think they're better than most other people. That their opponents are morons who know nothing and are idiots which unfortunately requires you to make a number of assumptions about positions I hold in regards to others here and not merely that maybe it was aspects people had overlooked I was trying to point out in a somewhat humorous way.
Dunning Kruger is a generalization that people with a small amount of knowledge or expertise in a subject tend to overrate their own knowledge, because they are incapable of grasping the true complexity of the topic and thus don't see the limitations of their own knowledge. As people learn more and develop greater expertise in a topic, they tend to become less certain in the knowledge they do have because they are aware that there is so much more beyond their own knowledge. In academia and other intellectually demanding careers, this is often called imposter syndrome. Only when a person reaches a position of genuine expertise do they begin to feel confident in their own understanding again.

Dunning Kruger does not apply only to people who think that they are better than most other people. That's another related cognitive bias called the Lake Wobegone effect, whereby most people generally tend to rate themselves as above average in various areas despite the fact that it is statistically impossible for most people to be above average. Dunning-Kruger relates to the confidence a person has in their own understanding relative to the actual scope of their understanding. It applies as much to the highly educated grad student who feels intimidated because they're surrounded by experienced academics all the time as it does to the idiot who mouths off about stuff they learned in elementary school as if that settles the argument.
 

tstorm823

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See, I've *I* were in charge of the definitely really real national organization of antifa, I'd be getting some black bloc folks together to push back these fascists on whatever day they plan their next move.

You know, pull a "we have serious problems with the US government but we'll be fucked if we let these assholes tear it down and we obviously can't count on the Capitol Police" sort of thing. Make the fascists fight against some American flags.
That demonstrates you don't understand the dynamics here. Antifa loves actual fascists. Actual fascists are their excuse to try and tear down all of society, and without them, regular people who be even more against Antifa than they are now.

The Antifa of 1930s Germany took the position that they would rather see the Nazis in power than lift a finger to save the Republic. Modern antifa is no different, the clash in their mind isn't just with the people you or I might consider fascist, their clash is with capitalism and liberal democracy as well. And if regular people were the only fascists they had to fight with, they'd be condemned totally, so effectively fighting fascism is counterproductive for them.
 

Silvanus

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That demonstrates you don't understand the dynamics here. Antifa loves actual fascists. Actual fascists are their excuse to try and tear down all of society, and without them, regular people who be even more against Antifa than they are now.
Right, but you've never actually offered very reliable descriptions of what your opponents believe.
 

Terminal Blue

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The Antifa of 1930s Germany took the position that they would rather see the Nazis in power than lift a finger to save the Republic.
We've gone over this. It's a gross myth created by people whose political antecedents literally voted in favour of the enabling act because they thought Hitler was their cool friend who only wanted 4 years of dictatorial powers to save Germany from communism. In order words, people like you.

German communists in general didn't want to save the Republic because the Republic, even the social democrats, had a long history of literally cooperating with far-right militias to murder thousands of communists. For Antifa, which in the 1930s was an attempt by the KPD to create a red front under its own leadership, there was no possibility of cooperating with parties like the SPD, because the SPD was literally using its own paramilitaries to attack and murder communists.

Modern antifa has no relationship to the 1930s organisation, it's not organized by any political party or movement. It's literally just a set of shared symbolism and tactics. That's why you'll see the Iron Front's "three arrows" symbol at Antifascist actions alongside Antifa's two flags (which is itself modified to include the black flag of anarchism, anarchists who were specifically excluded from the 1930s antifa) despite the fact the SPD and the KPD, whom each organization represented, were bitter enemies. The three arrows specifically represents democratic socialist opposition to fascism, which is just as much a part of modern antifascist action as action by revolutionary socialists and anarchists.

Modern antifa is no different, the clash in their mind isn't just with the people you or I might consider fascist, their clash is with capitalism and liberal democracy as well.
Again, that may be true for a lot of people who engage in antifascist action, but it isn't true for everyone and neither is it required to be. But, if you want to understand why some people see liberalism and capitalism as part of the problem, consider happened in the 1930s when, again, liberal and conservative parties alike outright cooperated with the Nazis and helped to put them into power.

That's not an accident. Fascism and capitalism facilitate and enable each other.
 
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tstorm823

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Again, that may be true for a lot of people who engage in antifascist action...

That's not an accident. Fascism and capitalism facilitate and enable each other.
I feel like this about covers it. Like, you can disagree with me on some minutia, and some people may be exceptions to the rule, but I believe you'll agree that "Antifascists" are not about to take up American flags to push back on fascists.
 

Houseman

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News on the Capitol Policeman who died:


According to sources familiar with the matter, authorities believe Sicknick's death was driven by a medical condition. They're also investigating reports that he was attacked with a fire extinguisher or another item at the Capitol, sources said. So far, reports of an attack haven't been confirmed and authorities are hoping to locate video or other imagery from the scene.
Sicknick's family said in a statement, "Many details regarding Wednesday's events and the direct causes of Brian's injuries remain unknown and our family asks the public and the press to respect our wishes in not making Brian's passing a political issue."
 
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crimson5pheonix

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The sad thing is tht the evidence to the contrary just demonstrated so vividly is not going to cause the slightest dent in what they believe and claim.
Oh because they're already lining up behind "It was secretly Antifa BLM commies who did it as a false flag!"
 

Mister Mumbler

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Oh because they're already lining up behind "It was secretly Antifa BLM commies who did it as a false flag!"
While I'm not surprised it happened, I am kind of shocked at the speed it took to happen. Pretty much the second it looked like all of their "support" in the House/Senate evaporated, Trump was mewling on TV, and the arrests started happening.
 

Agema

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Oh because they're already lining up behind "It was secretly Antifa BLM commies who did it as a false flag!"
I wonder how many of them actually believe that, and how many are just saying it to keep the ball rolling?

I think we have this idea a lot of the leaders of these sorts of movements are cynical manipulators and propagandists knowingly lying. However, I suspect a substantial number of them are true believers. I'm not sure which is more worrying.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Eh, maybe. Right wingers hate facing an opposing crowd when they do this shit though.
I dunno we might see a few more limos get burned or like in 2016 a pregnant women stuck in her car on the way to the hospital when some-one smashes her windshield.


Dunning Kruger is a generalization that people with a small amount of knowledge or expertise in a subject tend to overrate their own knowledge, because they are incapable of grasping the true complexity of the topic and thus don't see the limitations of their own knowledge. As people learn more and develop greater expertise in a topic, they tend to become less certain in the knowledge they do have because they are aware that there is so much more beyond their own knowledge. In academia and other intellectually demanding careers, this is often called imposter syndrome. Only when a person reaches a position of genuine expertise do they begin to feel confident in their own understanding again.

Dunning Kruger does not apply only to people who think that they are better than most other people. That's another related cognitive bias called the Lake Wobegone effect, whereby most people generally tend to rate themselves as above average in various areas despite the fact that it is statistically impossible for most people to be above average. Dunning-Kruger relates to the confidence a person has in their own understanding relative to the actual scope of their understanding. It applies as much to the highly educated grad student who feels intimidated because they're surrounded by experienced academics all the time as it does to the idiot who mouths off about stuff they learned in elementary school as if that settles the argument.
Which is quite funny because it seems the person levelling the claim provided no actual evidence to support it just level it and hasn't actually bothered to follow up with evidence either. It was a mere attempt to cast an aspersion.

At no point have I suggested I'm really an authority on much. I have a few areas (one of which because I was on the team that helped develop the thing) but that's the only one I'd ever claim to be a true authority on.

What I do object to is people throwing claims out that somehow they have superior knowledge (by casting me as the inferior) and then not following up with any actual proof to show why I'm wrong. I'm ready to be proved wrong by people. I'm not ready to be told I'm wrong and expected to take that on blind faith, especially with a large amount of lack of good faith happening often in this subforum.

There's a reason I try to back up a lot of the claims I make. To try and show that I'm at least engaging in good faith.


Man, you're funny. Good to see your pro Cancel Culture though
Yeh no Cancel culture is extra judicial punishment being done and is bordering on being almost a Sesame Credit style system but without a number and purely at the whims of a mob with it relying on just blind belief in the claims made not actually looking into them.
 

SilentPony

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I wonder how many of them actually believe that, and how many are just saying it to keep the ball rolling?
These are people who legit believe Jewish zombies voted and that's why Trump lost. I think its fair to say reality has left them behind.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Modern antifa has no relationship to the 1930s organisation, it's not organized by any political party or movement. It's literally just a set of shared symbolism and tactics. That's why you'll see the Iron Front's "three arrows" symbol at Antifascist actions alongside the two flags (which is itself modified to include the black flag of anarchism, anarchists who were specifically excluded from the 1930s antifa) despite the fact the SPD and the KPD, whom each organization represented, were bitter enemies. The three arrows specifically represents democratic socialist opposition to fascism, which is just as much a part of modern antifascist action as action by revolutionary socialists and anarchists.



Again, that may be true for a lot of people who engage in antifascist action, but it isn't true for everyone and neither is it required to be. But, if you want to understand why some people see liberalism and capitalism as part of the problem, consider happened in the 1930s when, again, liberal and conservative parties alike outright cooperated with the Nazis and helped to put them into power.

That's not an accident. Fascism and capitalism facilitate and enable each other.
Ok I object to the idea AntiFA isn't organised. It's not co-ordinated on a larger scale but it does seem to operate more on a cell structure with different cells working with others fairly often. E.G. Riot Kitchen getting funded and driving to different states to either serve food or as has been suggested by a number of times they've been stopped by police deliver equipment to aid rioters efforts. How would they know where to deliver that to or set up to serve food?

On the whole communism vs capitalism thing. I find it funny really as companies were only allowed to keep going under Hitler as long as they were deemed to be working in favour of the state. If they weren't he'd happily have people willing to do his bidding installed. You can argue Hitler rose due to Capitalism but his government operations were closer to the CCP in terms of how they worked with or saw companies. I also can't see why people would find communism like in Russia to be all that appealing where people were seen as disposable bodies where in Wars they'd happily shoot any of their own found retreating regardless of what was happening.


I feel like this about covers it. Like, you can disagree with me on some minutia, and some people may be exceptions to the rule, but I believe you'll agree that "Antifascists" are not about to take up American flags to push back on fascists.
Quite the opposite I'd say. They'll take those flags from people.

This was some-one on their own side

 

Dwarvenhobble

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The sad thing is tht the evidence to the contrary just demonstrated so vividly is not going to cause the slightest dent in what they believe and claim.
Well we did have people in a thread before trying to pretend nothing happened in 2016 when Trump won lol


I wonder how many of them actually believe that, and how many are just saying it to keep the ball rolling?

I think we have this idea a lot of the leaders of these sorts of movements are cynical manipulators and propagandists knowingly lying. However, I suspect a substantial number of them are true believers. I'm not sure which is more worrying.
Happens on both sides.

Remember the Whitehouse Gorilla channel?

Or the Koi carp incident?

Or the Childs hat incident?

Or the 2 different Children in cages photos?