A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
2,283
1,153
118
I read that underlined part and mentally omitted the first comma which led me to believe you suggested rape was an example of "you did something to fuck up" that "wasn't too bad." Fortunately, I read it back and caught my error before I penned a response in misunderstanding. Not on topic at all, just found it funny and wondered how many of us get into these discussions and might miss a little thing that changes everything, lol. As you were!
Yeah that was probably poor choice of phrasing on my part. My bad. To clarify, General Under Honorable Conditions, is a step down from Honorable as far as discharge categories. It doesn't always mean you did something criminal, though it can often mean exactly that. Basically, there are 2 descriptors when a service member is discharged. The character of discharge (Honorable, Dishonorable, Bad Conduct, etc) and then the REASON for discharge. The reason is where they give a short explanation as to why you were let go. This could be anything from Medical Discharge (due to injury from service, considered Honorable), Completion of Contracted Time (Meaning you did your contracted term of service, and were let go without issue, considered Honorable), or the one I often see with General (In Lieu Of Court Martial). Meaning you did something to seriously fuck up, bad enough to warrant criminal action (DUI, Narcotic Possession, other various crimes that are unbecoming a soldier, but aren't like REALLY bad things). But, to keep the branch of service looking good, and maybe because you did a plea bargain, they just let you go. Now you can have General without doing a crime, for things like "failed to meet standards of improvement", usually means you washed out in Basic Training or whatnot. Personality disorders (could be anything from you being a paranoid Qanon fuckwad, to "he's kind of an asshole who just can't follow orders, and does not mesh with the unit, so we're letting him go") General discharge allow veterans to still apply for any VA benefits they might qualify for, except education benefits, which are limited to Honorable service only.

Other Than Honorable (OTH) is a step further down from General, and this is when you are really doing bad shit. Bad Conduct is even worse than OTH, but we don't see too many of OTH or BC, they just don't come looking for benefits very often.

So if he's got an E2 rank after 2 years, it means, like @Dalisclock said, he either didn't do shit to improve and get promotions (probably tied to what he was discharged for), or he fucked up and had his paygrade reduced when they let him go, which happens a lot. I'd guess he probably just never advanced beyond the E2 rank, and they just let him go because of reasons. If he had served like 5+ years, and his DD 214 showed E2, I'd suspect they reduced his rank as part of his punishment for whatever he did.
 

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
771
575
98
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Yeah that was probably poor choice of phrasing on my part. My bad. To clarify, General Under Honorable Conditions, is a step down from Honorable as far as discharge categories. It doesn't always mean you did something criminal, though it can often mean exactly that. Basically, there are 2 descriptors when a service member is discharged. The character of discharge (Honorable, Dishonorable, Bad Conduct, etc) and then the REASON for discharge. The reason is where they give a short explanation as to why you were let go. This could be anything from Medical Discharge (due to injury from service, considered Honorable), Completion of Contracted Time (Meaning you did your contracted term of service, and were let go without issue, considered Honorable), or the one I often see with General (In Lieu Of Court Martial). Meaning you did something to seriously fuck up, bad enough to warrant criminal action (DUI, Narcotic Possession, other various crimes that are unbecoming a soldier, but aren't like REALLY bad things). But, to keep the branch of service looking good, and maybe because you did a plea bargain, they just let you go. Now you can have General without doing a crime, for things like "failed to meet standards of improvement", usually means you washed out in Basic Training or whatnot. Personality disorders (could be anything from you being a paranoid Qanon fuckwad, to "he's kind of an asshole who just can't follow orders, and does not mesh with the unit, so we're letting him go") General discharge allow veterans to still apply for any VA benefits they might qualify for, except education benefits, which are limited to Honorable service only.

Other Than Honorable (OTH) is a step further down from General, and this is when you are really doing bad shit. Bad Conduct is even worse than OTH, but we don't see too many of OTH or BC, they just don't come looking for benefits very often.

So if he's got an E2 rank after 2 years, it means, like @Dalisclock said, he either didn't do shit to improve and get promotions (probably tied to what he was discharged for), or he fucked up and had his paygrade reduced when they let him go, which happens a lot. I'd guess he probably just never advanced beyond the E2 rank, and they just let him go because of reasons. If he had served like 5+ years, and his DD 214 showed E2, I'd suspect they reduced his rank as part of his punishment for whatever he did.
Oh, no, you didn't mis-type at all; I just misread it; my second, more attentive read cleared up what you were actually saying.

But thank you for this additional detail; had no idea military discharges were as nuanced as this; I figured it was either "you done good, buh-bye" or "you dun't fucked up, get the fuck out."
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,147
430
88
But it is a reminder that "being a veteran" doesn't really mean much, because a lot of us have spent time in various parts of the military without doing anything that's really hardcore (though might be really vital to the military) and statistically most US servicemen will not have served combat duty tours in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Remember in the old forums how xDarc (I think) was a veteran because he completed part of basic training? I've always considered the word to be used for people who've seen a lot of stuff during their service, but apparently not.

EDIT: Oh, that guy is going to be famous once he gets out, and spend the rest of his life on talk shows, isn't he?
 
Last edited:

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Apr 18, 2020
672
512
98
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Yeah that was probably poor choice of phrasing on my part. My bad. To clarify, General Under Honorable Conditions, is a step down from Honorable as far as discharge categories. It doesn't always mean you did something criminal, though it can often mean exactly that. Basically, there are 2 descriptors when a service member is discharged. The character of discharge (Honorable, Dishonorable, Bad Conduct, etc) and then the REASON for discharge. The reason is where they give a short explanation as to why you were let go. This could be anything from Medical Discharge (due to injury from service, considered Honorable), Completion of Contracted Time (Meaning you did your contracted term of service, and were let go without issue, considered Honorable), or the one I often see with General (In Lieu Of Court Martial). Meaning you did something to seriously fuck up, bad enough to warrant criminal action (DUI, Narcotic Possession, other various crimes that are unbecoming a soldier, but aren't like REALLY bad things). But, to keep the branch of service looking good, and maybe because you did a plea bargain, they just let you go. Now you can have General without doing a crime, for things like "failed to meet standards of improvement", usually means you washed out in Basic Training or whatnot. Personality disorders (could be anything from you being a paranoid Qanon fuckwad, to "he's kind of an asshole who just can't follow orders, and does not mesh with the unit, so we're letting him go") General discharge allow veterans to still apply for any VA benefits they might qualify for, except education benefits, which are limited to Honorable service only.

Other Than Honorable (OTH) is a step further down from General, and this is when you are really doing bad shit. Bad Conduct is even worse than OTH, but we don't see too many of OTH or BC, they just don't come looking for benefits very often.

So if he's got an E2 rank after 2 years, it means, like @Dalisclock said, he either didn't do shit to improve and get promotions (probably tied to what he was discharged for), or he fucked up and had his paygrade reduced when they let him go, which happens a lot. I'd guess he probably just never advanced beyond the E2 rank, and they just let him go because of reasons. If he had served like 5+ years, and his DD 214 showed E2, I'd suspect they reduced his rank as part of his punishment for whatever he did.
Thanks for the explanation, this might actually come in handy for my job.
 

Dalisclock

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 18, 2020
1,792
859
118
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Remember in the old forums how xDarc (I think) was a veteran because he completed part of basic training? I've always considered the word to be used for people who've seen a lot of stuff during their service, but apparently not.

EDIT: Oh, that guy is going to be famous once he gets out, and spend the rest of his life on talk shows, isn't he?
Technically if you finish Basic, you're a vet once you get out. However, you don't get the benefits without an honorable or something akin to it discharge(normally medical).

And yeah, it gets overused a lot among the populace and even as a vet myself, I roll my eyes at the "All vets are heros" line. Some are, most did a job in the military for an enlistment or 5, and some slipped past the enlistment process only to create headaches for everyone else once they were in(There's a joke about writing "Recruiter Error" on the bad evals and as someone who did recruiting for a few years, that joke is both funnier and more true then I initially thought).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gethsemani

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
2,283
1,153
118
Technically if you finish Basic, you're a vet once you get out. However, you don't get the benefits without an honorable or something akin to it discharge(normally medical).

And yeah, it gets overused a lot among the populace and even as a vet myself, I roll my eyes at the "All vets are heros" line. Some are, most did a job in the military for an enlistment or 5, and some slipped past the enlistment process only to create headaches for everyone else once they were in(There's a joke about writing "Recruiter Error" on the bad evals and as someone who did recruiting for a few years, that joke is both funnier and more true then I initially thought).
@Thaluikhain
Yeah, if you finish Basic Training, and are issued a DD 214 (Discharge Papers), you are technically a Veteran. You probably won't get anything if all you did was Basic (usually 3 months, maybe additional 3 for AIT, Advanced Training), but yes, you can say you are a veteran.

And to be fair to those who get out in less than the minimum 90 days, sometimes it's legit. Like, you were doing basic, being a good little soldier, and were ordered to go jump off this platform or whatever. You follow your orders....and seriously fuck up your body. So bad they HAVE to let you go, as you can't serve. Those situations, are Honorable (because it's Medical Discharge), and you can get whatever benefits you might qualify for. Normally there is a minimum service required to get most benefits, and these days it's usually (2 years of service, or completion of a tour of duty) This is for people in the National Guard, or Reserves, who will often get called up for say, a 10 month tour in Iraq/Afghanistan, and come home again. Since they are only temporarily on duty, and the rest of the time are basically civilians, they are allowed benefits even if all they ever had was that 10 month tour.

Often though, if you wash out of Basic (or even if you finish basic just fine, but aren't called up to full service), they will usually give you Uncharacterized. It's not really anything. Not honorable, or dishonorable it's just an acknowledgement that you did the basic training and....that's it.

As to the "all vets are heroes" thing, yeah it's kind of nuts. I work with the VA, and I've asked my coworkers for years, if they actually like the way the civilian population reveres and lionizes them. With all the "thank you for your service" every time they turn around. Most of them REALLY don't like it. Partly because, as others have posted above, they were just a clerical assistant or whatever, doing a job, necessary but not Michael Bay action film with slow motion flag in a breeze and explosions kind of job. And yet, people will just fawn over them.

It's frankly kind of insane, and it's partly how we came to be in this situation with Jan. 6 in my opinion. Generations of alpha douchebags, weened on Rambo and John Wayne films, and then other military movies, and being told by their pastors and everyone else to basically worship the military, and now they want to pretend they are soldiers, when all they are, are toxic fuckwits with guns and no scruples. Thinking they are living out some patriotic action film, and they will "save the day" and reclaim the country, and all that bullshit that you think only shows up in the scripts for schlocky, b-movies. But nope!! It's just the Republican party and their ilk!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
1,347
682
118
Australia
@Thaluikhain
Yeah, if you finish Basic Training, and are issued a DD 214 (Discharge Papers), you are technically a Veteran. You probably won't get anything if all you did was Basic (usually 3 months, maybe additional 3 for AIT, Advanced Training), but yes, you can say you are a veteran.

And to be fair to those who get out in less than the minimum 90 days, sometimes it's legit. Like, you were doing basic, being a good little soldier, and were ordered to go jump off this platform or whatever. You follow your orders....and seriously fuck up your body. So bad they HAVE to let you go, as you can't serve. Those situations, are Honorable (because it's Medical Discharge), and you can get whatever benefits you might qualify for. Normally there is a minimum service required to get most benefits, and these days it's usually (2 years of service, or completion of a tour of duty) This is for people in the National Guard, or Reserves, who will often get called up for say, a 10 month tour in Iraq/Afghanistan, and come home again. Since they are only temporarily on duty, and the rest of the time are basically civilians, they are allowed benefits even if all they ever had was that 10 month tour.

Often though, if you wash out of Basic (or even if you finish basic just fine, but aren't called up to full service), they will usually give you Uncharacterized. It's not really anything. Not honorable, or dishonorable it's just an acknowledgement that you did the basic training and....that's it.

As to the "all vets are heroes" thing, yeah it's kind of nuts. I work with the VA, and I've asked my coworkers for years, if they actually like the way the civilian population reveres and lionizes them. With all the "thank you for your service" every time they turn around. Most of them REALLY don't like it. Partly because, as others have posted above, they were just a clerical assistant or whatever, doing a job, necessary but not Michael Bay action film with slow motion flag in a breeze and explosions kind of job. And yet, people will just fawn over them.

It's frankly kind of insane, and it's partly how we came to be in this situation with Jan. 6 in my opinion. Generations of alpha douchebags, weened on Rambo and John Wayne films, and then other military movies, and being told by their pastors and everyone else to basically worship the military, and now they want to pretend they are soldiers, when all they are, are toxic fuckwits with guns and no scruples. Thinking they are living out some patriotic action film, and they will "save the day" and reclaim the country, and all that bullshit that you think only shows up in the scripts for schlocky, b-movies. But nope!! It's just the Republican party and their ilk!

The weird thing about being weened in Rambo leads me to believe they just remember seeing the last hour or so of First Blood part II a few dozen times. Because if they remembered the climax, the proper one after the machine gun stops firing, of First Blood as clearly then they may feel more circumspect about how they go about showing their gratitude.
 

Gethsemani

Hardcore Feminazi
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
824
648
98
Country
Sweden
Remember in the old forums how xDarc (I think) was a veteran because he completed part of basic training? I've always considered the word to be used for people who've seen a lot of stuff during their service, but apparently not.

EDIT: Oh, that guy is going to be famous once he gets out, and spend the rest of his life on talk shows, isn't he?
In Sweden a veteran is explicitly someone who's done UN service or been in an actual war, regardless of what they did during their tour abroad. That feels more honest then calling the likes of me veteran who did a conscription year and then spent a few years weekend warrioring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
657
468
68
Country
United States

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,661
691
118
Apparently, the panic buttons were removed from the offices of one of "the squad" without her knowledge for unknown reasons

Before the takeover. That's weird, right?
We also have this:


The Washington Post has reported that the outgoing Capitol Police Chief, Steve Sund, believes his efforts to secure the premises were undermined by a lack of concern from House and Senate security officials who answer directly to Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate leader Mitch McConnell.
If this were a "false flag" operation, a staged attack planned to scare congressmen and senators and turn the nation against Trump, I don't know how anyone could trust this country ever again.

But it's probably not that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dwarvenhobble

MrCalavera

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2020
431
365
68
Country
Poland
We also have this:




If this were a "false flag" operation, a staged attack planned to scare congressmen and senators and turn the nation against Trump, I don't know how anyone could trust this country ever again.

But it's probably not that.
Might've been a fash-adjacent "inside job".
 
Last edited:

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
657
468
68
Country
United States
We also have this:




If this were a "false flag" operation, a staged attack planned to scare congressmen and senators and turn the nation against Trump, I don't know how anyone could trust this country ever again.

But it's probably not that.
Yeah, that would require the democrats to be both competent and ruthless.

Much more likely there's a handful of Capitol Police in on it, what with the selfies and all
 
  • Like
Reactions: tippy2k2

Gethsemani

Hardcore Feminazi
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
824
648
98
Country
Sweden
Yeah, that would require the democrats to be both competent and ruthless.

Much more likely there's a handful of Capitol Police in on it, what with the selfies and all
I think most of it can be adequately explained by a failure to take the threat seriously. As the Boston Globe article you posted points out: “Living four days a week in D.C. over the last 20 years, you see a lot of protests,” Lynch said. “There’s a certain rhythm to the district. So I wasn’t alarmed.”

Everyone figured there'd be a protest, maybe a few hundred people would stand outside the Capitol, shout a little, brandish their weapons and tacticool gear and be menacing. No one really thought it'd escalate into an outright assault on the Capitol. No one was prepared for the POTUS to call on them to march on Capitolium to stop the democratic process.

Sund had asked for the NG to be at the ready sure, but he hadn't done anything else, like issuing riot gear or having every officer on duty, to prepare for an eventual violent riot. His claims to have asked for NG units on standby should probably be seen as his attempt at mitigating his own culpability in the lack of preparedness and not as him having correctly predicted the violent riot that ensued.

Couple lack of preparation with a bunch of cops on duty that are sympathetic to the MAGA crowd and ready to shrink from doing their duty to buddy it up with the rioters and you've got a recipe for the kind of disaster that 1/6/21 will be remembered as.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,147
430
88
Everyone figured there'd be a protest, maybe a few hundred people would stand outside the Capitol, shout a little, brandish their weapons and tacticool gear and be menacing.
If they are rocking up armed and want to be scary, that sounds like a situation which can quickly escalate and needs to be prepared for, even if it's not the intent or likely toi happen, though.

EDIT: Fixed the quote.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
1,066
958
118
Country
United States of America
but find exterior agents to blame for having been set them up to fail or a society that stops them from being successful.
They're not necessarily wrong about that when expressed in such broad terms.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
2,283
1,153
118
If they are rocking up armed and want to be scary, that sounds like a situation which can quickly escalate and needs to be prepared for, even if it's not the intent or likely toi happen, though.
*looks at what you quoted* Um, I don't recall saying that at all. Did you by chance misquote or something somehow?
 

Agema

Ph'nglui mglw'nafn Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
2,921
2,075
118
What's far more likely is that:
A) Internet chatter was long about making a protest at the Capitol before the 6th. Some protestors probably just didn't bother to attend Trump's speech, just were ready around the Capitol.
B) The speech would have been available live. It could have been watched it online from wherever. Like, for instance, much nearer the Capitol.
C) Trump announced early in the speech (I'm guessing ~12.15) they would march on the Capitol, although he carried on much longer. Some protestors may have taken that as a cue to go to the Capitol at that point. They would arrive in about 30 minutes walk if starting at the Ellipse. About 12.40, in fact...

Thus is it entirely plausible an advance group started converging on the Capitol before the speech finished, which gradually built up well before the main mass who attended at the Ellipse and waited for Trump to finish would have arrived. This main mass listening to Trump who stayed to the end of the speech would have started arriving at the Capitol about 13.40. This of course may be what prompted the police to abandon the defence, because they saw a massive flood of thousands more protestors incoming and decided they couldn't hold.
 

Gethsemani

Hardcore Feminazi
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
824
648
98
Country
Sweden
If they are rocking up armed and want to be scary, that sounds like a situation which can quickly escalate and needs to be prepared for, even if it's not the intent or likely toi happen, though.
I agree, but if there's one thing we have learned in the last year it is that US law enforcement makes very different threat assessment of "unarmed black people non-violently protesting" and "armed, organized white people non-violently protesting". One of these are met with tear gas, rubber bullets and riot gear, the other gets asked to assist law enforcement against the former. Considering that history, it wouldn't surprise me if everyone in charge just assumed it was the militias out to show off and downplayed how dangerous hundreds of armed people really are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Satinavian