A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

Agema

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Conspiracy theorists don't work with those restraints.
My line of work is not dissimilar. You have a load of statistically verified data, they are double-checked, published; there are rules, and structure, and standards to meet.

My greatest frustration is perhaps in most internet debate is that so few people seem capable or willing to evaluate their information or sources, when it should be a bread and butter approach. Given many of these people have done degrees and so should have been formally taught how to evaluate evidence (including sources), I would sadly conclude modern education in many ways is a failure.
 
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Breakdown

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Just last year? And only those things? What about the inciting events? George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery?

What about the incidents afterwards? Casey Goodson Jr, Daniel Prude, et al?

What about the years previous? Unite the Right rallies, People being run over by cars, Churches Burned down, Innocent people being run down and shot like animals, the Hate Crime Surge since Trump came into office, and especially during the pandemic, Police Brutality, Trump downplaying the rampant Police Brutality that occurred while trying to suppress their voting ability at the same time, and etc.

You're right. It does seem like a natural progression. But not from the side you might be referring...
I don't really know or care that much about American politics, because I'm not American, but you referred to how the rest of the world would view this. Purely from an outsider's perspective, the message from the American left has been "mob rule is good, civil insurrection is fine, government buildings are fair game". It was obvious that the Trump supporters and right wing groups would respond in kind eventually, once they started to get organised. If you escalate a conflict, that's what generally happens.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I don't really know or care that much about American politics, because I'm not American, but you referred to how the rest of the world would view this. Purely from an outsider's perspective, the message from the American left has been "mob rule is good, civil insurrection is fine, government buildings are fair game". It was obvious that the Trump supporters and right wing groups would respond in kind eventually, once they started to get organised. If you escalate a conflict, that's what generally happens.
You are way over simplifying a complex issue. If people want to do damage to government property as a protest/riot then that is what it is, when that goes to private property then its too far. This isn't doing that though, this is a group literally trying to undermine the constitution by interrupting the peaceful transfer of power and overturn the will of the people to install a wannabe dictator.
 
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Avnger

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Police stations and court houses burned to the ground
Where? Show proof that a single one (let alone multiple stations and multiple courts) was burnt to the ground.

You see the conspiracy theorists the others are talking about? They mean people like you. You have no real idea what you're talking about, but you're so damn confident in it. You either don't care about the truth or don't have the ability to discern it from patently false information.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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I don't have any problem with the idea of storming the Capitol building *in general*, I've got a problem with the specific reason being "lost as fair an election as the United States has ever had"

Context

Some of our allies are thinking it was an attempted coup.
 

tstorm823

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I dont know about the admiring bit. Most of the time the only way to get them to admire you is to agree with everything they said... which is counterproductive
I'm not saying it's an easy thing, or even always plausible, but mid-argument options are certainly limited. Outside of an argument, there's a better chance. The piece Worgen linked to is a good example.
Cracked has a really interesting article from a used to be 9/11 truther about how he got into the conspiracy and how he ended up getting out of it.
This was someone emotionally hooked into 9/11 conspiracies, who was then presented with all the facts, but the moment that broke him out of it:
For Charlie, the worst moment was meeting Alice Hoagland, whose son, Mark Bingham, perished aboard Flight 93.

"I cracked and broke down in tears. It was the true human emotion of a mother who lost her kid that changed me. The others believed it was a fake recording and that she was in on it. It was the monstrous ugliness of the other theorists which set me on edge. I'm made to believe they're all a part of the 10,000-man-strong Illuminati? I said to the producers on day five, 'I've changed my mind.'"
An ardent conspiracy theorist was presented not only with the facts to change his beliefs, but also an emotional reason to want to change his beliefs. Like, appeal to emotion may be a logical fallacy in reasoned debate, but beliefs aren't made of pure reason by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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Houseman

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You are way over simplifying a complex issue. If people want to do damage to government property as a protest/riot then that is what it is, when that goes to private property then its too far. This isn't doing that though, this is a group literally trying to undermine the constitution by interrupting the peaceful transfer of power and overturn the will of the people to install a wannabe dictator.
You can make anything sound bad or good, based on the wording. That's why facts are more important than rhetoric.

Your claim that they wanted to "overturn the will of the people" is not a fact. From their perspective, the will of the people was discarded months ago due to election fraud.
Your claim that they were trying to "undermine the constitution" is not a fact, but is based on the above assumption. In their eyes, they were defending it.

Where? Show proof that a single one (let alone multiple stations and multiple courts) was burnt to the ground.
Are you going to be pedantic and say that as long as the structure of the building is still standing, it's not technically burnt to the ground? Therefore, it's okay?

Anyway, here:


"At least it wasn't an attack on congress!"
 

Silvanus

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=America received an unexpected wake up call. The questions is: will they pick up the phone?
....do you only wake up and get out of bed when someone calls you on the phone?
 

Houseman

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I've seen plenty of news footage from America in the last year. Police stations and court houses burned to the ground, stores looted, mobs roaming the streets, people being dragged from cars and beaten up. This just seems like a natural progression.
I saw this and thought of you

 

ObsidianJones

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I don't really know or care that much about American politics, because I'm not American, but you referred to how the rest of the world would view this. Purely from an outsider's perspective, the message from the American left has been "mob rule is good, civil insurrection is fine, government buildings are fair game". It was obvious that the Trump supporters and right wing groups would respond in kind eventually, once they started to get organised. If you escalate a conflict, that's what generally happens.
Then I'll ask you in all fairness... if you're not willing to do more than surface research of a subject and use that as an excuse on not having anything else to say when pressed, why voice an opinion?

I've gone over this sentiment several times in efforts to not make it sound rude. I really did. But it never came out right. I'm really not trying to be rude, but I don't know how else to phrase this. So apologies beforehand.

There are a TON of things that UK people here post about the UK and the like. And I really have not enough information to comment. So I don't. I sit back, I read a little, and I try to absorb.

It would be like me voicing an opinion on Boris Johnson simply due because he looks like the British Donald Trump. Given that every once and a while he does a cock-up that makes the news here, and then I'll wade into any conversation with the UK forum members and slag on Johnson as if it adds something to the conversation.

Respond in kind? Do you even know about the Occupation of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge? Where a rancher and his militia buddies took over a federal building for 40 days in efforts to 'get federal land turned back into the hands of the people' in January 2016? And who did a similar thing two years prior?

How about the El Paso shootings, where an alt-right radicalized boy took a rifle and ended the lives of 23 people in 2019?

If we're going to stick to BLM protests, what about the Boogaloo Bois who were arrested for actually being the ones who shot up the Minn. Police station? Or the Three Percenters? or Possibly the Hell's Angels Biker Gang?

Or, you know. The nearly 1000 accounts of Police Brutality during the Protests against Police Brutality. It would be funny if it wasn't tragic.

We can go on and on and on about how the alt-right has been the face of terrorism in the country for too long to count. And if BLM is modeling their efforts and protests to what came prior.... well, we're very lucky they are doing such a bad job at it. If you care to actually look through our history, you'll see that the American Right has a lot of time for Alt-Right Provocateurs. Bundy is still a good example. Or how conservatives backed and cheered when Provocateurs staged an Armed Siege on Michigan's state Capitol... or when militias plotted to kidnap the Governor of Michigan

Oh, here's a fun thing! That Armed Siege happened May 14th 2020. George Floyd was killed May 26th 2020. A whole twelve days before the Armed Siege. So, it really does look like the Left was 'learning' from the Alt-Right.

What you are doing is taking a bit of information due to what seems like personal bias and stopping there, with an opinion that is only half formed but seems good enough for you. This is exactly how people get radicalized. I don't know you from Adam or Eve, but taking time to voice a half baked opinion and then stating it's based on what one could consider an apathetic attempt to gather and delineate 'information' leaves me wondering what is the point of trying to be a part of a conversation when you're admittedly not that interested in it? Or are not prepared to engage it in good faith?
 

Houseman

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....do you only wake up and get out of bed when someone calls you on the phone?
I think he's just alluding to the "wake-up call" phrase. It's a thing where hotels can call your room phone in lieu of an alarm clock to wake you up. It's just a phrase.
Did you not know that?
 

Silvanus

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I think he's just alluding to the "wake-up call" phrase. It's a thing where hotels can call your room phone in lieu of an alarm clock to wake you up. It's just a phrase.
Did you not know that?
Yes, I know the phrase, but I thought it referred to a parent calling for their kid to get out of bed and had nothing to do with phone calls. I thought CaitSeith was mixing metaphors, and so made a joke about it... but if it refers to hotel wake-up phone calls, then I've long misunderstood where the phrase comes from.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
An ardent conspiracy theorist was presented not only with the facts to change his beliefs, but also an emotional reason to want to change his beliefs. Like, appeal to emotion may be a logical fallacy in reasoned debate, but beliefs aren't made of pure reason by any stretch of the imagination.
Yeah, generally people get into conspiracies with a little logic and a lot of emotion. You can't really logic someone out of that when they are into it, only feels can really reach them and even then its only sometimes.

Your claim that they wanted to "overturn the will of the people" is not a fact. From their perspective, the will of the people was discarded months ago due to election fraud.
Your claim that they were trying to "undermine the constitution" is not a fact, but is based on the above assumption. In their eyes, they were defending it.
You just spelled out why its so dangerous to feed into the delusion of these conspiracy theorists, then they start thinking stupid things like the election was stolen and trying to install a dictator.
 

Houseman

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You just spelled out why its so dangerous to feed into the delusion of these conspiracy theorists, then they start thinking stupid things like the election was stolen and trying to install a dictator.
I agree.

That's why, instead of feeding the delusion, you gotta squash it with overwhelming proof and evidence.
Y'know, things like audits, recounts, forensic investigations, things like that.
Also, transparency on the front-end would prevent conspiracy theories from getting off the ground. Don't go into secret back rooms and nobody will wonder what you're doing in that secret back room.
 

CM156

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My greatest frustration is perhaps in most internet debate is that so few people seem capable or willing to evaluate their information or sources, when it should be a bread and butter approach.
It's a frustration when people on the internet make insane claims and then tell you to "do you own research" when you call them on it. In most cases, it's not research. It's searching for sources that agree with their stance, usually conspiracy theory videos by people who no credentials for any line of work more complex than flipping burgers.

As a consequence of this frustration with the ignorant, smug, and stubborn, I get no small amount of joy in watching pro se (people who choose to represent themselves in court) litigants get torn to shreds. Especially sovereign citizen types. Because finally they're in a field where they can't lie their way to victory or present nonsense sources, and their arguments actually have to hold up to scrutiny.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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I learned that back in the early-mid 2000's with 9/11 truthers.

The only good way to deal with a conspiracy theorist is to ignore them.
Ignoring the conspiracy theorists, the liars, the racists, the fascists, is how we got here in the first place. They don't go away if you ignore them- they gain adherents, influence, power. And now we've had a conspiracy-theory-peddling, lying racist with dreams of fascism in the White House for four years, whose followers literally stormed the halls of government in the hopes of keeping him in power permanently.

They have to be exposed, marginalized, kept away from any sort of power. Otherwise they take over, and we die.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I agree.

That's why, instead of feeding the delusion, you gotta squash it with overwhelming proof and evidence.
Y'know, things like audits, recounts, forensic investigations, things like that.
Also, transparency on the front-end would prevent conspiracy theories from getting off the ground. Don't go into secret back rooms and nobody will wonder what you're doing in that secret back room.
Read the cracked article I linked. You can't logic someones way out of a position like this. You can barely emotion them out of it since they can just say those grieving family members are paid actors.

In other news a cop just dies of injuries suffered so the body count is up to 5 so far.