A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,492
522
118
Country
USA
I mean, there's a congressman saying that January 6th was basically the same as any other tourist day while being on camera helping barricade the doors.
At the very least, he should be removed from congress for mental incompetence
Would you equally remove from office all those lying the other direction? Would you remove AOC for accusing Ted Cruz of trying to have her murdered? It's liars fighting liars and they're all lying. He's not mentally incompetent, he's lying while he's trying to make the case against Democrats who currently want to authorize a blanket investigation against Republicans staffed entirely by Democrats.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,805
3,955
118
Sure, but what actually happened is so lame, I think people should have the discernment to see calling this an attempted insurrection is extreme, abusive and a selective political prosecution.
I hear what you're saying, but attempting to murder someone is still attempted murder, no matter how half-arsed the attempt. Stealing a bottle of water or a candy bar is a lame act of theft, yet theft it is.

So, the record is absolutely clear that Trump, upon numerous occasions public and private, claimed he won the election and engaged in activities to undermine the result and maintain his presidency (some of which are arguably illegal). The 6th Jan demonstration was explicitly in support of Trump and his view that Biden's presidency would be illegitimate, and Congress needed to be "persuaded" of that and to instead affirm Trump to a second term. That is our base context, and it's a whole lot of intent.

In terms of a lot of the communications unearthed by demonstrators are a lot of rhetoric of threatening legislators of even killing some of them, plus strategy and planning for how to deal with police, Congressional security, etc. Now, that's not every demonstrator by a long shot, but it does indicate again give us some idea of intent, premeditation, etc. to overturn the election result. However, at the point an individual who was not part of these conversations, there's principle like "joint enterprise". They surely all knew the sorts of things being talked about (much from Trump himself if nothing else).

It is perhaps harsh. I'm sure a lot were bemused to have got in there and just felt like looking round and stuff rather than really activrly trying to attack Congress... but even still. I really don't think it can just be viewed as a unusually high profile trespass. It's certainly not a "political prosecution". It was a huge and explicit attack on a branch of the US government.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,010
1,684
118
Country
United States
Would you equally remove from office all those lying the other direction? Would you remove AOC for accusing Ted Cruz of trying to have her murdered? It's liars fighting liars and they're all lying. He's not mentally incompetent, he's lying while he's trying to make the case against Democrats who currently want to authorize a blanket investigation against Republicans staffed entirely by Democrats.
I mean, they'd be fine with having Republicans on that committee if the GOP wasn't insisting that they get the ability to veto subpoenas
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
Apr 6, 2020
5,236
544
118
Country
USA
I hear what you're saying, but attempting to murder someone is still attempted murder, no matter how half-arsed the attempt. Stealing a bottle of water or a candy bar is a lame act of theft, yet theft it is.

So, the record is absolutely clear that Trump, upon numerous occasions public and private, claimed he won the election and engaged in activities to undermine the result and maintain his presidency (some of which are arguably illegal). The 6th Jan demonstration was explicitly in support of Trump and his view that Biden's presidency would be illegitimate, and Congress needed to be "persuaded" of that and to instead affirm Trump to a second term. That is our base context, and it's a whole lot of intent.

In terms of a lot of the communications unearthed by demonstrators are a lot of rhetoric of threatening legislators of even killing some of them, plus strategy and planning for how to deal with police, Congressional security, etc. Now, that's not every demonstrator by a long shot, but it does indicate again give us some idea of intent, premeditation, etc. to overturn the election result. However, at the point an individual who was not part of these conversations, there's principle like "joint enterprise". They surely all knew the sorts of things being talked about (much from Trump himself if nothing else).

It is perhaps harsh. I'm sure a lot were bemused to have got in there and just felt like looking round and stuff rather than really activrly trying to attack Congress... but even still. I really don't think it can just be viewed as a unusually high profile trespass. It's certainly not a "political prosecution". It was a huge and explicit attack on a branch of the US government.
Happily we have grades of theft. So you don't punish a shop lifter of a candy bar the same you punish thieves running a chop shop.
By definition, one could write that resisting arrest is Insurrection.
"an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government "
We're supposed to have the discernment to know when something like this should be charged or not. A bunch of goofs, many invited in by capitol police roamed around some and then voluntarily left.
Also, I think in Britain, the credibility of your attempt matters. If you grab a tree branch and pull it towards your pocket screaming, "I'm going to steal the world" thinking from this effort, you'll end up with the whole world in your pocket, no one is going to charge this loon with, say, attempted grand theft. This "insurrection" had about the same chance.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,492
522
118
Country
USA
I mean, they'd be fine with having Republicans on that committee if the GOP wasn't insisting that they get the ability to veto subpoenas
I am under the impression that Democrats proposed an all-Democrat committee, and both splitting the committee with Republicans and allowing vetoes of subpoenas were concessions made to get it to be bipartisan. I don't think there was ever a point where it was written as a split commission, but got push-back because Republicans wanted that veto power.

To be clear, I think the end result they came up with is perfectly acceptable, if unnecessary since there are already 2 branches of government handling it just fine. The vision some Democrats had going into this process would not have been acceptable.
 

XsjadoBlayde

Intersectional Multidimensional Pansexual Alliance
Apr 29, 2020
1,511
1,267
118
Britannialand
It probably isn't worth saying at this point, but after taking a very keen interest in qanon and other modern conspiracy theories and the people within the inlfuencing spheres for some while now, the Q shaman being focused on by the media and courts is not what I'd consider justice, as he is comparatively harmless when next to the proper Q pushers, militias and far right groups like the proud boys who are eagerly coasting on this new wave of opportunities for accelerationism. Most of them seem to think he is an antifa plant too, whereas he's just some confused conspiracy-obsessed weirdo who latched on to the latest hot shit and visits every rally with confused look and comments from the more aggressive side of believers, but draws the most attention solely on his choice of attire.

There are so many worse players in this, especially certain republicans either winking at their qanon base or outright throwing the red meat straight into their faces. People would do well to observe actors like General Micheal Flynn who is worryingly no better than an ISIS radicaliser with militant preacher rhetoric directed unambiguously at this base. Marjorie Taylor Greene is a fucking psychopath demon too, there is nothing human behind those eyes except power-hungry hate. Jacob is just the shiny peacock everyone seems to have been drawn to, and he has been lumped with a lawyer that isn't helping anyone either. Yay for our justice systems I spose.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kwak and BrawlMan

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,805
3,955
118
Happily we have grades of theft. So you don't punish a shop lifter of a candy bar the same you punish thieves running a chop shop.

By definition, one could write that resisting arrest is Insurrection.
"an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"
Firstly, the police are not, per se, civil authority but the enforcement agency(-ies) of civil authority. Secondly, "revolt" has very clear connotations. Resisting arrest is an obstruction of agents of the state executing their powers, but it does not (necessarily) represent an attack on (the legitimacy of) the laws and system the police are defending.

We're supposed to have the discernment to know when something like this should be charged or not. A bunch of goofs, many invited in by capitol police roamed around some and then voluntarily left.

Also, I think in Britain, the credibility of your attempt matters. If you grab a tree branch and pull it towards your pocket screaming, "I'm going to steal the world" thinking from this effort, you'll end up with the whole world in your pocket, no one is going to charge this loon with, say, attempted grand theft. This "insurrection" had about the same chance.
They violently invaded one of the three most important government buildings. They fought their way past police, and broke in. Even those who didn't personally assault any police or create the breach, they sure as hell knew the mob had and they were a part of it.

Simply attacking the building and its defenders is credible as insurrection, never mind actually succeeding on getting in.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: gorfias

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,805
3,955
118
Marjorie Taylor Greene is a fucking psychopath demon too, there is nothing human behind those eyes except power-hungry hate.
There is something significantly wrong with that woman. But this a democracy, and the people have a right to elect such people even if they are unwise to.

Jacob is just the shiny peacock everyone seems to have been drawn to, and he has been lumped with a lawyer that isn't helping anyone either. Yay for our justice systems I spose.
He's very attention-grabbing, yes.
 

XsjadoBlayde

Intersectional Multidimensional Pansexual Alliance
Apr 29, 2020
1,511
1,267
118
Britannialand
There is something significantly wrong with that woman. But this a democracy, and the people have a right to elect such people even if they are unwise to.



He's very attention-grabbing, yes.
You say democracy, but in actual fact she didn't win by getting the most votes. She only won by default from her opponent dropping out after intimidation and abuse leading to divorce and mental health troubles. Seriously, no exaggeration.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
2,575
1,598
118
Australia
Also, I think in Britain, the credibility of your attempt matters. If you grab a tree branch and pull it towards your pocket screaming, "I'm going to steal the world" thinking from this effort, you'll end up with the whole world in your pocket, no one is going to charge this loon with, say, attempted grand theft. This "insurrection" had about the same chance.
Yep, and when a bunch of radicals seized another government building - an embassy belonging to Iran - for the express purpose of political change, the British government deployed the Special Air Service. Admittedly there was quality of attempt over the quantity in that case but all one of the six terrorists were killed, and that one that did survive has persistently been rumoured so only because one of the troopers pointed out all the press were around when one of his colleagues was going to put two in the back of his skull. The fact remains that these idiots stormed a government building as a mob with what I would call a credible threat against life and property. To be fucking honest, they're lucky that they're being judged by twelve and not carried by six.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
14,894
739
118
Yep, and when a bunch of radicals seized another government building - an embassy belonging to Iran - for the express purpose of political change, the British government deployed the Special Air Service. Admittedly there was quality of attempt over the quantity in that case but all one of the six terrorists were killed, and that one that did survive has persistently been rumoured so only because one of the troopers pointed out all the press were around when one of his colleagues was going to put two in the back of his skull. The fact remains that these idiots stormed a government building as a mob with what I would call a credible threat against life and property. To be fucking honest, they're lucky that they're being judged by twelve and not carried by six.
Well, they did try negotiating, and only sent the SAS in once it'd moved on to hostage killing.

Interestingly, apparently the option of waiting until everyone was asleep and going in with suppressed weapons and night vision and not everyone waking up was considered in advance, but was very unpopular and wasn't tried.

Having said that, if the US police were more active in opposing the attack by an armed mob of traitors upon them, that's one time they can't be blamed for resorting to lethal force.
 

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
Apr 6, 2020
5,236
544
118
Country
USA
Yep, and when a bunch of radicals seized another government building - an embassy belonging to Iran - for the express purpose of political change, the British government deployed the Special Air Service. Admittedly there was quality of attempt over the quantity in that case but all one of the six terrorists were killed, and that one that did survive has persistently been rumoured so only because one of the troopers pointed out all the press were around when one of his colleagues was going to put two in the back of his skull. The fact remains that these idiots stormed a government building as a mob with what I would call a credible threat against life and property. To be fucking honest, they're lucky that they're being judged by twelve and not carried by six.
The reality of what actually happened does not support your view. There was some broken glass and some idiots roamed around, talking with police. I think someone had a gun in their car parked way out side of the Capitol building. I think they deserve sanctions... but proportional to the offense. And more importantly, that this not end up looking like a case of selective prosecution, which, I think too late for that.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
2,575
1,598
118
Australia
The reality of what actually happened does not support your view. There was some broken glass and some idiots roamed around, talking with police. I think someone had a gun in their car parked way out side of the Capitol building. I think they deserve sanctions... but proportional to the offense. And more importantly, that this not end up looking like a case of selective prosecution, which, I think too late for that.
As I said, quality over quantity. CM would probably be able to give a more accurate run down but even to my untrained eyes there's probably charges of criminal trespass, criminal damage, theft, civil torts of assault (if that's a thing over there) and I'm also going to conjecture that there's special charges for it being a federal building but I base that assumption on the fact that government buildings in Australia have a very specific warning about unauthorised access of the premises.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gorfias

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,492
522
118
Country
USA
There are so many worse players in this, especially certain republicans either winking at their qanon base or outright throwing the red meat straight into their faces.
"Don't waste time worrying about actual rioters. It's Republicans that are the true evil here!"
 

XsjadoBlayde

Intersectional Multidimensional Pansexual Alliance
Apr 29, 2020
1,511
1,267
118
Britannialand
"Don't waste time worrying about actual rioters. It's Republicans that are the true evil here!"
Yes you beautiful sensitive boy, indulge passionately in that manufactured victim complex! It pays wells too. 😉 (read closer the word "certain" as opposed to "all" next time before knee-jerking with predictable tripe)
 
Last edited:

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,492
522
118
Country
USA
Yes you beautiful sensitive boy, indulge passionately in that manufactured victim complex! It pays wells too. 😉 (read closer the word "certain" as opposed to "all" next time before knee-jerking with predictable tripe)
I mean, on the subject of predictable tripe, on the last page I posted that people don't want to see people as rioters, but as followers of Republicans who are the real problem, and 8 posts later you actually make the comment. Sure, you said "certain", but you also said "especially". In a post about rioters, militias, proud boys... nah, Micheal Flynn is the special concern that deserves focus. You have to see how silly that is, right?
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,805
3,955
118
You say democracy, but in actual fact she didn't win by getting the most votes. She only won by default from her opponent dropping out after intimidation and abuse leading to divorce and mental health troubles. Seriously, no exaggeration.

She was going to win anyway. It was a deeply Republican seat where the Democrats regularly lost about 75-25, and not just that, but a district very high in demographic groups particularly supportive of Trump and other associcated extremities.

In short, she could not have failed to win that election. Her opponent pulling out was incidental, not causal.
 

XsjadoBlayde

Intersectional Multidimensional Pansexual Alliance
Apr 29, 2020
1,511
1,267
118
Britannialand
She was going to win anyway. It was a deeply Republican seat where the Democrats regularly lost about 75-25, and not just that, but a district very high in demographic groups particularly supportive of Trump and other associcated extremities.

In short, she could not have failed to win that election. Her opponent pulling out was incidental, not causal.
Oi...being defeatist was my debilitating trait, you can't take that away from me!

tenor-32.gif
 

ObsidianJones

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 29, 2020
1,022
1,250
118
Country
United States
Yes you beautiful sensitive boy, indulge passionately in that manufactured victim complex! It pays wells too. 😉 (read closer the word "certain" as opposed to "all" next time before knee-jerking with predictable tripe)
It's a special victim complex, as well. As it ignores their own side in riots.

It's always funny how they talk about ignoring the stuff that happened with BLM and (supposed) Antifa and blithely ignore their own riots in several capitols.






I mean, the Republicans always seem to stop short when they said BLM and Antifa. If we're really concerned about unruly mobs and breaking protocol (such as lock downs and limited group gatherings), these would be brought up as well. Oddly, they aren't.

Final tip. Protesting about the unfair loss of life and the systematic lies and cover ups that have happened for generations is protest worthy. Mandates to keep you alive which you want to politicize are not. It would be the same as storming the capitols with guns to protesting Seat Belt laws, Clean Water acts, and FDA food statues.

"HOW DARE YOU INSIST MY MEAT ISN'T TAINTED?! I AM AN AMERICAN AND I INSIST ON EATING DISEASED MEAT AS IT IS MY RIGHT!!! GATHER THE GUNS, IT'S TIME TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT!!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: XsjadoBlayde

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,492
522
118
Country
USA
I mean, the Republicans always seem to stop short when they said BLM and Antifa.
They don't. Republicans condemn right-wing violence every single time. Every single time. You link the plot to kidnap Whitmer, no Republican politicians endorsed that, many condemned it, Trump himself bragged about "his" DOJ saving the day and arresting the perpetrators.