A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

tstorm823

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Everything he said from election day until January 6.

EDIT: And everything he's said since then. And no, his weak statement trying to call off his supporters when it was clear everything was out of control does not count. It is as though he threw a man from a building and then ordered him to stop halfway down.
You mean to say the explicit statement deterring violence doesn't count when compared to your personal inferences on vague statements prior? Either that, or you should be accusing basically all politicians of inciting violence, cause if you're gonna argue "fight like hell" is obviously literal, you're living in a silly fantasy.
 

bluegate

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You mean to say the explicit statement deterring violence doesn't count when compared to your personal inferences on vague statements prior? Either that, or you should be accusing basically all politicians of inciting violence, cause if you're gonna argue "fight like hell" is obviously literal, you're living in a silly fantasy.
We talking about this psychotic blurb, by the way?

I know your pain. I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side, but you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s a very tough period of time. There’s never been a time like this where such a thing happened, where they could take it away from all of us, from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home and go home at peace.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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You mean to say the explicit statement deterring violence doesn't count when compared to your personal inferences on vague statements prior? Either that, or you should be accusing basically all politicians of inciting violence, cause if you're gonna argue "fight like hell" is obviously literal, you're living in a silly fantasy.
I think CM156 is bang on the money to say it's akin to pushing a man off the building and telling him to stop halfway down.

A holistic view of Trump's words preceding Jan 6th is pouring a load of petrol all over the place, and Jan 6th was tossing the match. The odd sentence along the way tokenistically opposing violence is like chucking a glass of water on that lake of petrol and claiming the intent all along was to stop a fire.

The very, very belated comment hours after the Capitol had been breached is nothing more than a man who has finally woken from his narcissistic, revenge-fuelled wank-fantasy to realise just how deep in the shit he might be.

He just watched it all unfold on TV, allegely enjoying the spectavle and refusing entreaties to get involved and end it. No-one can mistake that.
 

Hades

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Do you want them to accept "their president" lost without dignity, pretended otherwise, and accidentally stoked a riot on the capital? Or do you want them to believe that Trump was trying to violently overthrow the US government? If the former, I'm with you. If the latter, you're not helping. Trying to get people to reject lies by presenting them with equal lies is not effective.
They don't even accept that first part, let alone the later part.

But with Trump having spend months if not years demonizing the election, slandered mail in voting and installed a crony to neck them when it became clear mail in voting would be a big deal, trying to stack the judicial deck in his favor and repeatedly stressed how his supporters were getting conned and how they should fight back I don't think we can really speak of the word ''accident''.

Trump radicalizing his voters doesn't really look like an accident if he's been preparing to deny his electoral defeat months if not years before doing it. Even in the most charitable interpretation Trump still wanted to block the electoral winner from being declared president, and its highly dubious that the violence that happened wasn't something he intended or at least hoped for.
 
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tstorm823

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I think CM156 is bang on the money to say it's akin to pushing a man off the building and telling him to stop halfway down... a man who has finally woken from his narcissistic, revenge-fuelled wank-fantasy to realise just how deep in the shit he might be.
So you agree with CM156 except in the only way that matters. You can agree on analogies all you want, the argument here between me and CM156 is whether or not Trump was purposefully inciting violence, and if you think Trump saw violence happen and went "Oh shit!", you're on my side of that argument, that he started the riot without meaning to. Whether or not he is to blame and which of his flaws lead there are not the points of contention.
Its highly dubious that the violence that happened wasn't something he intended or at least hoped for.
Why? For what end do you imagine he wanted violence? Do you really imagine Trump figuring his supporters would go in guns blazing and overthrow the US government, because short of a complete and successful violent coup, there is no method by which violence on January 6th helps him in any way. Why do you imagine him hoping for something that hurts him? That makes no sense for a normal person, it makes exceptionally no sense for someone so utterly self-obsessed.
 

Kwak

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So you agree with CM156 except in the only way that matters. You can agree on analogies all you want, the argument here between me and CM156 is whether or not Trump was purposefully inciting violence, and if you think Trump saw violence happen and went "Oh shit!", you're on my side of that argument, that he started the riot without meaning to. Whether or not he is to blame and which of his flaws lead there are not the points of contention.

Why? For what end do you imagine he wanted violence? Do you really imagine Trump figuring his supporters would go in guns blazing and overthrow the US government, because short of a complete and successful violent coup, there is no method by which violence on January 6th helps him in any way. Why do you imagine him hoping for something that hurts him? That makes no sense for a normal person, it makes exceptionally no sense for someone so utterly self-obsessed.
A tantrum is cathartic.
 
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tstorm823

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A tantrum is cathartic.
Yes, but is that an answer to the question? Do you think Trump thought "I'm gonna pretend the vote was rigged for several months and then hold a rally near the capital and hope the people there will decide to storm the capital because watching that will make me feel better about losing." Describing anything planned and executed over months time as "a tantrum" is probably inaccurate.
 

CM156

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You mean to say the explicit statement deterring violence doesn't count when compared to your personal inferences on vague statements prior? Either that, or you should be accusing basically all politicians of inciting violence, cause if you're gonna argue "fight like hell" is obviously literal, you're living in a silly fantasy.
I cannot prove what Trump was thinking. All I can go on is his behavior and his statements. And both have made me conclude that he is a narcissist with zero regards whatsoever for the rule of law. I do not know if he honestly thought he could use the mob he gathered to get Congress to not certify the election for Biden. But I do honestly believe, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that he was willing to try. I watched the events of 1/6 live, same as tens of millions of Americans. I was horrified.
The unwillingness of the GOP to condemn both this event and Trump disgusts me.
 

Seanchaidh

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So you agree with CM156 except in the only way that matters. You can agree on analogies all you want, the argument here between me and CM156 is whether or not Trump was purposefully inciting violence, and if you think Trump saw violence happen and went "Oh shit!", you're on my side of that argument, that he started the riot without meaning to.
Not if the reason he was alarmed is that he wasn't going to win.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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So you agree with CM156 except in the only way that matters. You can agree on analogies all you want, the argument here between me and CM156 is whether or not Trump was purposefully inciting violence, and if you think Trump saw violence happen and went "Oh shit!", you're on my side of that argument, that he started the riot without meaning to. Whether or not he is to blame and which of his flaws lead there are not the points of contention.
But he didn't see the violence and think "Oh shit", did he? He watched it for hours on television, apparently enjoying it. Never mind enjoying it, but if you were against violence, would you sit idle whilst a mob you'd just given a speech to attacked the Capitol? I wouldn't. I'd be straight on the phone asking how bad it was and whether there was anything I could do to help.

I think you'll find he thought "Oh shit" very belated only because someone finally got through to him to that it was potentially catastrophic for him.

Why? For what end do you imagine he wanted violence? Do you really imagine Trump figuring his supporters would go in guns blazing and overthrow the US government, because short of a complete and successful violent coup, there is no method by which violence on January 6th helps him in any way. Why do you imagine him hoping for something that hurts him? That makes no sense for a normal person, it makes exceptionally no sense for someone so utterly self-obsessed.
We can all self-sabotage. People with extreme psychologies can self-sabotage in extreme ways. Of course what Trump did does not instinctively make sense to you, because you are a relatively normal person with normal psychology. But there is no point trying to assess Donald Trump by the standards of a normal person's psychology. I think you have never really grasped how pathologically personality disordered Donald Trump is.
 
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Trunkage

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I cannot prove what Trump was thinking. All I can go on is his behavior and his statements. And both have made me conclude that he is a narcissist with zero regards whatsoever for the rule of law. I do not know if he honestly thought he could use the mob he gathered to get Congress to not certify the election for Biden. But I do honestly believe, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that he was willing to try. I watched the events of 1/6 live, same as tens of millions of Americans. I was horrified.
The unwillingness of the GOP to condemn both this event and Trump disgusts me.
It's like the Dems in '93 letting a known sex offender become president candidate then become suprised that he got impeached for it. I dont believe it

I cannot believe people who helped barricade the various houses think nothing happened
 

Agema

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I cannot prove what Trump was thinking. All I can go on is his behavior and his statements. And both have made me conclude that he is a narcissist with zero regards whatsoever for the rule of law. I do not know if he honestly thought he could use the mob he gathered to get Congress to not certify the election for Biden. But I do honestly believe, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that he was willing to try. I watched the events of 1/6 live, same as tens of millions of Americans. I was horrified.
The unwillingness of the GOP to condemn both this event and Trump disgusts me.
I would concur. The pattern of Trump's behaviour is ever more extreme and outlandish, even potentially illegal, attempts to maintain himself as president. Frustrated by the failure of other officials and individuals to save him, it is perfectly credible that he might have turned to a mob.

I would add to that two other factors:
1) The overwhelming, intoxicating feeling to a narcissist of a bunch of people who love him so much they would desecrate one of the two most important buildings in the country for him.
2) Vindictive revenge. Not just your ordinary vindictiveness and vengefulness, but that of a cruel, bullying, full-blown narcissist having a meltdown.
 
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tstorm823

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I cannot prove what Trump was thinking. All I can go on is his behavior and his statements. And both have made me conclude that he is a narcissist with zero regards whatsoever for the rule of law. I do not know if he honestly thought he could use the mob he gathered to get Congress to not certify the election for Biden. But I do honestly believe, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that he was willing to try.
Even if that's a reasonable conclusion, the belief that someone would be willing to do something is not evidence that they did. One can hardly imagine how many false convictions have been achieved through such faulty reasoning.
I watched the events of 1/6 live, same as tens of millions of Americans. I was horrified.
The unwillingness of the GOP to condemn both this event and Trump disgusts me.
You should forget everything you think about this and start fresh, honestly. Has the GOP been unwilling to condemn that event? Or did they overwhelmingly condemn it from the moment it happened and supported the efforts of the legitimate law enforcement powers against those who perpetrated the crimes? (Hint: the second one)
 

Kwak

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Especially when it's a 3 year old in the body of a geriatric throwing one.
And then getting a crowd to act it out for him.
Must be a real power-trip.

But he didn't see the violence and think "Oh shit", did he? He watched it for hours on television, apparently enjoying it. Never mind enjoying it, but if you were against violence, would you sit idle whilst a mob you'd just given a speech to attacked the Capitol? I wouldn't. I'd be straight on the phone asking how bad it was and whether there was anything I could do to help.
"Sir, you really should be saying something"
"Hang on, let's not be hasty, let's just see how this plays out.."
 

Agema

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You should forget everything you think about this and start fresh, honestly.
I think that is more advice for yourself.

Donald Trump should be a pariah to the GOP. The fact that he isn't tells us all we need to know about how strong their disapproval and condemnation really is. Over the years, you have told us all sorts of things that you think the GOP stands (or should stand) for, and Donald Trump should be a pariah to that GOP. The fact that he isn't should tell you what state the GOP is in, and how misguided you are when continuing to defend and protect him.
 
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tstorm823

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I think that is more advice for yourself.

Donald Trump should be a pariah to the GOP. The fact that he isn't tells us all we need to know about how strong their disapproval and condemnation really is. Over the years, you have told us all sorts of things that you think the GOP stands (or should stand) for, and Donald Trump should be a pariah to that GOP. The fact that he isn't should tell you what state the GOP is in, and how misguided you are when continuing to defend and protect him.
It's never misguided to insist on the truth. I will continue to "defend and protect" people from lies for as long as you continue to spread them. That is not general support for the man, and you're not going to shame anyone into submission by suggesting that it is.

Ideally, everyone would easily have the same take on the riot on Jan 6th, but if people are going to insist it was a coup planned by the GOP, then there's gonna be an argument to be had.

I really wish you would understand the dynamics here. Donald Trump is not popular with people because of anything about him. He's popular because he pisses you people off. All you have to do to take his influence away is ignore him. Nobody of any prominence on the right will be saying a word of defense for Donald Trump the moment people stop trying to throw him in jail for being offputting.
 

Agema

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It's never misguided to insist on the truth. I will continue to "defend and protect" people from lies for as long as you continue to spread them. That is not general support for the man, and you're not going to shame anyone into submission by suggesting that it is.
That you keep telling yourself that is part of the problem. That you keep telling us that is merely annoying.

I really wish you would understand the dynamics here...
Donald Trump is a psychologically unstable man who was an incompetent and corrupt president, who plainly attempted outrageous and potentially illegal acts to keep the presidency after losing an election. And I say for the umpteenth time, his actions as president were consistent with and predictable from his conduct prior to politics. If your party is prepared to back him just to troll the libs, you're just making my point for me that the GOP is not the party you like to think it is, and seriously broken.

What you want us to understand is a fantasy that helps you pretend your party is not a damaged institution has that de facto condoned the unforgivable. And not just that, but fails what is supposed to be one of the fundamental conservative tenets of taking responsibility, in that it seeks to place all blame for all the right's poor choices and misjudgements on the left.
 

Hades

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I really wish you would understand the dynamics here. Donald Trump is not popular with people because of anything about him. He's popular because he pisses you people off. All you have to do to take his influence away is ignore him. Nobody of any prominence on the right will be saying a word of defense for Donald Trump the moment people stop trying to throw him in jail for being offputting.
Why do you say that as if it speaks particularly well at your side? Because that heavily implies that Trump supporters knowingly and very willingly put their own country to the torch just to spite people they don't like. I genuinely have more respect for true believe who think an overly corrupt and authoritarian president is what the country needs, instead of people who know its all horribly wrong but insists on taking that course just out of spite.
''Oh hey. This cartoonishly incompetent president bungled a pandemic just as we suspected he would. And my parents might be dead from covid because the cartoon president told them they shouldn't wear a mask, and I'm out of a job but at least the libs are unhappy now!''

Why? For what end do you imagine he wanted violence? Do you really imagine Trump figuring his supporters would go in guns blazing and overthrow the US government, because short of a complete and successful violent coup, there is no method by which violence on January 6th helps him in any way. Why do you imagine him hoping for something that hurts him? That makes no sense for a normal person, it makes exceptionally no sense for someone so utterly self-obsessed.
I'm not quite sure why Trump supporters insist there could have been no gain for doing what he did.
-If the mob would have successfully intimidated Pence to employ powers he didn't have to throw out votes then Trump could claim either victory or a disputed election which might get the supreme court involved. The supreme court he stacked.
-If the mob had intimidated enough people to delay certification then there was enough time for the Trump camp to get up to some devilry. Maybe the chaos would prompt the supreme court to quasi innocently suggest such chaos and um...''uncertainty'' would require their involvement.

Stretches, long shots and doomed to failure as far as odds for success goes perhaps. But this was a president who never had any case to dispute his defeat to begin with. Clinging to long shots was all he had.

And as many people already said it would satisfy his ego, his vanity and his well documented obsession with revenge after imagined slights.

You should forget everything you think about this and start fresh, honestly. Has the GOP been unwilling to condemn that event? Or did they overwhelmingly condemn it from the moment it happened and supported the efforts of the legitimate law enforcement powers against those who perpetrated the crimes? (Hint: the second one)
Didn't the very man caught on camera baricadding the door for fear of his life later go on to claim it was just a rowdy tourist visit? Even Pence, the very target of the mob now tries to pretend it was no big deal. And condemning it is meaningless if its not followed by action. McConnell saying ''Yes Trump is guilty and I condemn it but I refuse to see him punished'' doesn't seem like much of a condemnation to me.
 
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