A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Right, I'm just going to copy-paste my post from the WW because I can't be arsed to rewrite it all over again:

Sheesh, what a bunch of jaded cynics we have in here. I just got back from the theater, and I think The Last Jedi is great. It doesn't reach Rogue One levels of excellence and it certainly won't dethrone Empire as my favorite Star Wars film, but it has enough going for it to give it a respectable position in the pantheon for me.

I think part of the backlash in some circles can be chalked up to preconceived notions that turned out to be wrong...gloriously wrong in some cases. I'm not going to mention particulars here, but let's just say there's lots of butthurt fans right now that their precious character theories have been brutually eviscerated...and their tears are delicious.

Anyway, here's my initial impressions (spoilers follow, ye have been warned):

Spoiler: THE GOOD

-Opening with a pitched space battle was very nice for a diehard starfighter jock like me...and with actual new ship designs to boot! I particularly liked the Resistance bombers, how they're clearly inspired by World War II aircraft like the B-24 yet still retain a distinctive Star Wars flavor. Too bad they were all blown to smithereens

-Luke tossing his saber over his shoulder was great. Lots of people are bitching about it, but I think it's perfectly in character. He was just offered an object that in his eyes represents his greatest failure and everything he hates about himself. Makes sense to me that he'd want no part of it.

-Luke's sullen, uncooperative demeanor in the first act. Again, people seem to dislike it because it's not "in character," but I'd disagree. Isolation changes people. You try living on a remote island for years with just distant caretakers and local wildlife for company and see if you can keep a chipper demeanor.

-Kylo Ren's Tie Silencer is rad. It's like a canon version of the Tie Avenger, one of my favorite Imperial ships from "Legends."

-Speaking of Kylo/Ben, his character is fleshed out a whole lot more here, particularly in his interactions with Rey. These are easily some of the best moments in the film as they try to get into each others' heads and understand one another.

-The showdown with Snoke. I loved how Kylo managed to trick Snoke into letting his guard down by masking his intentions towards him under the guise of supposedly killing Rey. It's just different enough to distinguish itself from Vader/Anakin defeating Palpatine in RotJ, and it indicates that the so-called "Supreme Leader" wasn't as powerful as he wanted others to believe. Besides, Kylo's a far more compelling villain than Snoke ever was. I for one am glad to see him gone.

-The lightsaber brawl with Snoke's guards. It was fun seeing all the different weapon types and fighting styles at play, from standard pikes and swords to whips and daggers. It felt like the best elements of duels from previous trilogies, with the flashy choreography of the prequels mixed in with the weighty, purposeful swings, blows and dramatic clashes from the classics.

-The reveal that Rey's parents were not in fact Skywalkers, Solos, Kenobis or any other famous family line. Nope, they were just a couple of nobodies who sold her for drinking money. It was as if I could hear millions of Rey theorists crying out in terror before being suddenly silenced. It. Was. Glorious.

-Luke's grand send-off at the end. I'm normally of the opinion that the series should stop trying to milk nostalgia and forge new paths, but that callback to the twin suns scene...goddamn.

Spoiler: THE BAD

-Was the gross-out scene of Luke chugging unpasteurized sea-cow milk necessary? First it was the rathtars in TFA, then Bor Gullet in RO, now this. What is it with modern Star Wars films and their obsession with adding stupid shit that involves unconvincing CGI beasties?

-The Porgs. They were tolerable in small doses, but by the time they had boarded the Millennium Falcon I found myself wishing Chewie had cooked up the lot of them...and this is coming from someone who didn't mind the Ewoks and Gungans.

-Leia's now-infamous Superman scene. On the one hand it was nice to see her finally using the Force in a proactive way (I still think not making her a Jedi was a huge missed opportunity). On the other hand, did it have to be such an extreme example? I don't care how Force-sensitive you are, surviving explosive decompression in the vacuum of space stretches credibility even by Star Wars standards. I half-expected her eyes to blow out of their sockets or instantly freeze over when she opened them. It also just felt awkward overall in the light of Carrie's passing.

-They killed Admiral Ackbar off way too early and in too subdued a manner. He should have been the one who covered the transports and went out with a bang spearing Snoke's star destroyer, not some broad we hardly know.

-The Finn/Rose subplot fell rather flat compared to the rest of the film. Also, Rose's apparent affections for Finn at the end came out of left field. I hope this doesn't turn into an awkward love triangle for Episode IX.

-The Canto Bight casino setting had potential, but it oddly felt too ordinary, like they just took a real world casino and threw some weird aliens in, hoping that would be enough. Hell, Dex's totally-not-50's-diner in Episode II was a more convincing Star Wars locale than whatever the hell that was supposed to be. Also, why do the (presumably orphaned) kids working the animal stalls look like they came straight out of a Charles Dickens' story? I mean, one of them was sweeping with a goddamn straw broom. Couldn't they have at least made it a futuristic repulsor-broom or something else that doesn't scream "19th century?!"

-Yoda appearing as a ghost, specifically the part where he destroys the tree and Jedi texts when Luke hesitates. It robbed Luke of his agency, forcing the decision out of his hand. This clashes with the way Force ghosts have been portrayed in the past, as passive spirits merely providing guidance and/or warnings. Even when Luke would disobey their wishes they never tried to take matters into their own ethereal hands like that. It just felt...wrong, to the point where I initially thought it was the work of someone like Snoke using Yoda's likeness to disguise his actions.

I've been thinking a lot on THAT scene with Leia, and were I given the chance to redo it, I would

Spoiler

instead have her use the Force to shield the rest of the bridge crew long enough for them to be rescued before dying due to decompression. All the grandeur of using the Force, but with none of the baggage that scene creates

That still begs a question, though...

Spoiler: Specifically...

To my knowledge Leia has never undergone actual training in the Force. I could accept her doing some of the minor tricks, even mustering up a big Force Push or Pull. But creating a big Force Shield to prevent everyone on the bridge from getting spaced is still a bit much. Sure, it's more plausible than an untrained person being able to use the Force to simultaneously prevent herself from flash-freezing in the cold of space and protecting herself from the effects of catastrophic decompression before flying herself back to a door (btw: when they opened the door that she was behind...wouldn't that have decompressed/sucked out everyone in that hallway? It's not like the door to the bridge was an airlock...), but even creating a bridge-sized safe zone seems like a pretty tall order for anyone that isn't a Master of the Force.

I admit it isn?t a perfect get out of nit-pick free card but I feel that being able to do it at the cost of her life would sit better with an audience for such a spur of the moment thing. Like maybe she?s felt the Force her whole life (which some lines in ROTJ do bear out) but never used it because it never felt like the right moment. Then there?s a split second where it all comes home to roost: the choice is everyone, or her. So she just digs deep and draws on everything she knows: every snippet of rumour, every half understood conversation with Luke, with her son and every instinct she?s ever ignored and channels the power of her father and the will of her mother in one glorious moment.

.......fuck me I went a little overboard there didn?t I?

 

[Naqel]

A female character was competent.

That implies a presence of character.

 

[404notfound]

I would say its a pretty solid film. I believe its the best so far out of the newer 3 (Force Awakens, Rogue One and this). Don't think it reached any lofty heights; it was still pretty derivative in places, had a few inconsistencies and there was a bit too much in terms of forced humour/tonal shifts. I'd say a 7/10.

 

[spartandude]

Ok let me get a summary of my thoughts out the way and non spoilerery stuff. I thought it was really good. But it definately had it's issues and so far it's the weakest out the 3 new films. The acting is mostly great with the exception of one person in particular. The journey's (literal and emotional) the characters go through are also mostly great. I cried once... and also every time Leia was on screen. Some characters are wasted with one being my all time most hated Star Wars character. Sorry Jar Jar Binks, you've somehow been topped. And something I can't believe I'm about to say but the music was merely functional. While the music in TFA and RO wasn't the best it was still awesome but here it's not. Apart from reused or reworked tracks I can't think of a single piece that stood out.

Spoilers below.

Spoiler: the good

The story as whole was interesting and thankfully not a copy of Empire. I love Empire, it's my all time favourite film. But after TFA was a copy of A New Hope I was worried we wouldn't be getting originality.

Luke really does steal the show here. His journey was brilliant. And before anyone says that it's out of character to try to kill children he didn't, he controlled himself in the end. He wanted stop another Vader from rising and was going to kill Ben but then realised that he shouldn't. And if anything this movie confirms that Infanticide is a Skywalker gene.

Poe gets screen time and goes from being an impatient blasty boom kind of soldier to realising that things might take more thought.

The older yet super sexy admiral chick with great hair was cool. And the scene where she sacrifices herself was beautiful.

Leia using the force! Say what you want but I loved it. And in general she's really good. I was interested to see what they would do with her in this after Carrie Fisher's death and I'm grateful that they didnt just kill her off but gave us what she gave.

And I do not care what anyone else says, Rose was awesome.

Kylo Ren has become a fantastic Villain. In TFA I didn't care for him but he has grown.

Spoiler: the bad

I couldn't stand General Hux. Remember when I said there was a character worse than Jar Jar? Well here it is. Sure the actor is talented but what he had to work with was painful. He spends the entire film being beaten up by his superiors, whining or being made to look a fool in that opening scene. And he's meant to be taken seriously? No!

Leading on from that we have what could've been an awesome character. Captain Phasma. Unlike Hux she's intimidating, has an awesome design and even a connection to one of our heroes. But once again has almost no screen time and seems to be actually killed off. She should be the military commander of the First Order but instead we get Hux.

And Snoke is also wasted. When he's on screen he's pretty damn good. But he's killed off before we get to know anything about him. Who is he? How did he become leader of the first order? How did he get to Ben and the other Jedi to corrupt them? Where did he come from? I still think he's a Palpatine clone. But we might not know. Unless they make his death pointless by bringing him back next film or release a novel.

The CGI was a bit...ehhh. Look when doing things like ships, droids, backgrounds or lasers it's absolutely fine. But the creatures suck. Especially those horse things. And bringing Rey so close to Snoke didn't add tension, it made him look even more fake.

And lastly Daisy Ridley flips a coin on whether she's going to act in a scene or not. When she does she is pretty damn good. But half the time, particularly the first bunch of her scenes she's a plank of wood.

 

[jedisensei]

Spoiler: THE BAD

-Yoda appearing as a ghost, specifically the part where he destroys the tree and Jedi texts when Luke hesitates. It robbed Luke of his agency, forcing the decision out of his hand.

Spoiler: ...a slight correction.

The texts are not in the Tree. They are on-board the Falcon, as seen in one of the closing shots of the film.

Yoda is letting on more than it initially seems when he tells Luke that "the library contains nothing that the young Rey does not already possess."

 

[Scarim Coral]

So this is the place to talked well typed our opinion of the film eh?

For me it was good.

Spoiler

For the whole supposely copying Empire Strike Back arguement, it is a very different film when compared to ANY of the past films like for one thing, it start right after TFA! Past films usually take months or some timeskipped like ROTS! I would say it was like The Empire Strike Back at baseline only like Rey training is kinda like Luke training with Yoda and the Resistance took heavy loses like the Rebel did!

The downside I would says is that all of the battles you seen in the trailer is literally all you got! Also the new ships like the bomber and Snoke personal ships are all a letdown too! I gues Kylo starfighter was cool I guess?

Another example of it being different is the big bag Snoke well being smoked out prematurely but can be seen as prematurely as again, we still know little of him (I guess this is where the comic and other media will flesh it out).

I admit with all of the difference, it does make me wonder how the final part will be played out now? Obviously it will all tied down to Rey and Kylo (I kinda see the ending being like the Matrix Revolution in that they both died/ killed each other therefore it will be balance cos of no more Jedi and Sith altogether) but how will the Resistance will recover? There was like what? 30 of them left or what is the max capasisty the Falcon can fit in since none of their allies shows up? Speaking of the allies, I still find it baffling how there is no other faction or planet side forces that should of supported the Resistance? Surely wiping out the Republic planet did not destoryed all of their fleet or what remain of it? I mean watching the clone war shows, each planet should have some kind of an army?

Not nitpick

Chewbacca killing and trying to each one of the Prog was hillarious especially the sad one which I guess the one that Chewbacca was trying to each was its mother/ father?

That codebreaker they hire was random? So he coop up in the jailcell waiting for a client to show up?

The new asain characte was great althought I am bais (I'm asian) but hey she was more than an token character!

Sure Leia get to lived in the film but RIP Akbar! Speaking of Leia, how will she be killed off in the final film now? Get a heartattack or just faith or something?

Luke departure was great and an excellent farewell!

Speaking of the desease, will Chewbacca, R2 and C3PO will bite the dust too?

The new guards were cool but sadly were kinda useless but hey at least we saw them in action!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Overall it was pretty bad.

Superior to the soggy biscuit that was Rogue One, and vastly superior to the Ed Wood level shenanigans in the prequels, but a seriously problematic movie that half derails the entire tentpole trilogy.

Spoiler

Get the good out of the way...

1. Kylo Ren. Anyone bitching about this character or Driver's performance at this point...I have no idea what the fuck you want. The guy is doing a fantastic job, and the character is the only one with any semblance of depth or intrigue at this juncture.
2. The Porgs. They were fabulously annoying and used for good comic effect. It would have been so easy to turn them into mascots, but they remained an aggravation throughout.
3. The visuals on the salt planet were very striking.
4. Benicio Del Toro turned a very minor character into a marginally interesting one, delivering a thematic note we actually haven't heard before.
5. Laura Dern's character and the Battlestar Galactica-y mutiny. It was alright.
6. The force conversations/connection between Rey and Kylo. That felt VERY interesting, and I'm disappointed it appears to have fizzled out so pre-emptorily. Maybe they'll do something with it going forward. Probably the best part of the film as a whole.
7. Some of the other critters, like the village fish people, were amusing.

Now, the bad. Hoo boy.

1. No one advances an arc or moves the story forward in any meaningful way. By under-writing or backtracking most of Abrams mystery box silliness, the movie actually pulls off the remarkable feat of leaving us with LESS of a story than we started with. Poe remains static, Finn remains static (and repeats his character beats), Rey remains static, Kylo remains static. What was the point of the FILM, even? Watch them do some stuff? This isn't episode 7 of a 12 episode television series. This is episode 2 of a 3 episode film trilogy. You CANNOT spin your tires like this.
2. "Your parents were junk traders! Nobodies!" Okay then. Fascinating. A film full of bait, red herrings, prophetic visions, and this is your pay off. That's called a shaggy dog story, writers.
3. The Casino Planet sub plot and subsequent CGI monster spectacle, replete with doe eyed orphans, was pure prequel level tripe. Much like the tentacle monster sequence from Force Awakens, this feels like awful, pace-killing padding.
4. The entire "flight from the First Order" plot line that runs through the entire film feels overlong, never a quarter as tense as it should, and is constantly shot through with deus ex machina moments. Since when can light speed do THAT?
5. Leia using her "fly" power to re-enter the ship was hilariously cheesy. Either kill her or don't have her blown into space.
6. Luke turning into a Force Ghost out of...exhaustion? Apathy? That was a curious decision, and also felt cheesy (and more than a bit unearned).
7. Snoke abruptly dying after a few scenes of full-out camp villainy was terribly pointless. Again, don't build something up in one movie only to say "Ha ha! It all came to nothing!" in the second. Whether you like or hate the idea of him (and I always kind of hated him, especially his goofy name) is irrelevant. It's not good storytelling.
8. Rey is presented a critical obstacle in the form of a landslide blocking the escape of her friends. Has Rey struggled previously to lift heavy items? Is this some kind of crucial character building moment for her? No. She just lifts the rocks and they escape. No tension. Bad storytelling.
9. Finn looks like he's about to die to save the base, which would be a startling demise for his character, bring genuine pathos to the film, and give his character a reason for even existing in the film at all (which he didn't really have up to that point). Nope, derailed. Something about not killing what you hate, but saving what you love. That's what he was trying to do before you stopped him, spunky mechanic girl. Good work.
10. The entire rusty speeder vs walkers sequence came to nothing. They flew out, had a "suicide mission" that went nowhere, and ran back and escaped. Why? To what purpose? It looked neat, but again did nothing to advance the story.
11. When the super mega lightspeed jump of death eviscerates half the fleet and throws the hangar of the big capital ship into disarray, we rejoin Finn and Mechanic Girl and...where are all the troops surrounding them? Oh, they're way off in the distance, marching through some haze? How did that happen? CONTINUITY MATTERS.
12. Finn's big showdown with Phasma fell flat and felt unearned. "I identify as a rebel now, and I'm willing to fight for the cause!". Cool. That was his arc from the first film.
13. Luke's Jedi related ramblings to Rey are interesting and all, but nothing we didn't already know. They do not advance or enrich our understanding of the Force or the Star Wars mythos.

Everyone whined about Force Awakens because it hit many of the same story beats as New Hope, and was an aggressively safe...at times even cowardly...exercise in franchise rebooting. But it did things. It introduced a new world state. It introduced new primary characters and reacquainted us with former ones. It set a stage. The fuck did this movie do on that stage? It did NOTHING. We are left in the EXACT SAME POSITION as we left TFA in. Rey and Kylo are budding Force Users Supreme, and antagonistic. Leia is leading a plucky band of resistance fighters, small but resolute. Finn is a former First Order trooper who has developed a new sense of camaraderie with his fellows and is willing to fight for what he believes in. Poe is a hothead and really good pilot. BB8 is a round droid. Luke and Snoke exit stage right after some scenery mugging, while saying or doing nothing that informs the audience. Only, instead of a grab bag of intriguing (or annoying, depending on your perspective) mysteries and questions about what's to come, we've got...nothing.

 

[2HF]

Nerds.

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

Looks at the Rotten Tomatoes "Critic's" Score

Looks at the audience score.

/FacePalm

I call it IGN syndrome.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Just got back from seeing. What an absolute garbage fire of a shit movie. I mean fuck me, I knew it was going to be bad, but worse than Clone Wars bad?! Worse than Force Awakens bad?!

I'm looking back at the Prequel trilogy going 'Holy shit, a plot! A story broken up into a classic 3 act structure, and not just a bunch of randomly interchangeable scenes hacked together into a corpse in the editing room!'

When it wasn't lazily ripping off Empire, it was lazily ripping off Jedi.
Way to absolutely ruin Luke Skywalker. Way to turn one of the noblest heroes in modern culture into a whiny, unlikable old man who does nothing.

Also Rose McSpaceLady's 'Fight for those we love!' kiss scene is officially, legally, and morally the worst romantic line in a Star Wars movie. Congratz what's your face actress, you'll forever be remembered as out cheesing Sand is sandy and sand.

and at 2 and a half hours, I was really expecting you to tell a story or do something, Star Wars. You should feel ashamed Star Wars. Ashamed.

Excuse me, I have to go watch the Holiday special to try to get this terrible anti-Star Wars taste out of my mouth.

 

[Callate]

I enjoyed it at the time. I think, overall, that I still enjoyed it.

But I'm beginning to feel that the people who have a problem with Rey may have a point.

Spoiler

Rey doesn't need help from anybody. Rey doesn't need to train to win lightsaber battles against people who have. Rey can use all the Force-based abilities despite having no training and apparently little concentration or understanding of the Force. Rey is a master-pilot from the get-go.

(And for those who insist on saying Luke wasn't any different, there's at least some suggestion that Luke has been piloting vehicles for most of his life- and he did go to Dagobah to train under a master, and still got his ass handed to him the first time he fought a skilled adversary. He also got beaten up by Sand People and thrown across a bar, whereas the first fracas Rey got into the filmmakers were so determined to show how awesome she was that she fought off two assailants single-handed.)

And for all that, I don't hate Rey. I wish they would tone the heroine-worship down, but she doesn't inherently irritate me.

But the one thing I do find hard to overlook- the film goes out of its way to go "No! Trying to do brave, desperate, long-shot, loose-cannon things is BAD! Going off half-cocked is BAD!"

...At least, when Finn and Poe do such things.

Rey allowing herself to be captured was every bit as stupid, under-planned, no-consultation, and longshot as anything Finn or Poe did.

But for her, it paid off.

Luke warned her not to. Snoke said the whole thing was a trick to lure her in. But, no... She's right, and Snoke's wrong, at least in this very limited way that allows her to fight her way out of trapping herself in a dead end at a disadvantage. And then she gets lucky when the ship gets rammed and she doesn't get herself killed either by chance or by Kylo Ren, to who she is now the sole significant obstacle between him and conquest of the galaxy.

Star Wars movies are all about bravely and defiantly carrying out desperate and sometimes foolhardy plans, whether it's disguising yourselves as stormtroopers and freeing a princess before jumping down a garbage chute, or guerrilla warfare on a forest moon to take out a shield generator on a deadline against a larger and better-armed force, or going to Cloud City against orders to try to save your friends from imprisonment and torture.

You want to make a point about flamboyant heroism getting people killed? That leadership takes planning and hard choices and sacrifice? Fine. But you don't then get to make exceptions to that for Rey. She gets to play by the same "You try to play hero, you get smacked down" rules as everyone else. Otherwise it's not really a theme, it's just hypocrisy.

Especially if you're going to have everyone get saved in the end by a deus ex machina anyway, which foolhardy plans succeed and which fail begins to seem awfully arbitrary.

(And perhaps your awesome leaders might think to have your bombers not fly in such tight formation that one getting hit blows up nearly every other bomber in the fleet, while you're at it...)

 

[Dalisclock]

I enjoyed it at the time. I think, overall, that I still enjoyed it.

But I'm beginning to feel that the people who have a problem with Rey may have a point.

Spoiler

Especially if you're going to have everyone get saved in the end by a deus ex machina anyway, which foolhardy plans succeed and which fail begins to seem awfully arbitrary.

(And perhaps your awesome leaders might think to have your bombers not fly in such tight formation that one getting hit blows up nearly every other bomber in the fleet, while you're at it...)

In fairness, Star Wars is full of people who have no idea how military stuff works at all(or more accurately, the writers don't).

There's an episode of Clone Wars where a 10 year old with a blaster takes down a Republic Cruiser by shooting the reactor core a bunch of time, after knocking out the one guy standing watch down there. During a Red Alert of all things.

Nobody knew what Air Support was until around that time either(Force Awakens was the first film where someone thought of calling for an airstrike to help turn a battle).

And let's not forget the battle of Endor, where the Empires finest troops and the cream of their fleet was wiped out because they got too distracted by chasing ewoks around the forest that they forgot their main job was to GUARD A SINGLE DOOR for a few hours.

 

[Kyrian007]

It was fine. Not as good as VII for several reasons but still enjoyable. Rian Johnson doesn't film an action scene very well (its all Greengrass shaky-cam and crappy looking because of it) but it at least had classic Star Wars stagefighting instead of the wire-fu flipouts of the prequels where idiots spend more time spinning and waving around lightsabers to look cool than they did actually fighting with them. Johnson doesn't have a good sense of appropriate comedic timing. Many of his jokes ruined a serious moment, or just fell flat to begin with... but he at least landed a couple (unlike the prequels.)

Honestly the biggest problem... reactionary. They (like idiots) listened to the fans. That will never result in a great movie. Nearly every "correction" to a perceived "problem" with episode 7 resulted in an episode 8 that could have been a lot better. The faction claiming "mary sue" about Rey led to an interesting development about her parents... but "giving in to the idiot fans on the mary sue issue" took far more of her screen time that would have just been better spent just developing her character. And for the rest of Ep. 8 "twists..." clearly chosen to go a different way than the popular theories out there on the internet... most of which really killed potentially cool storypoints. Who really was Snoke? Welp, fuck that... doesn't matter a tiny bit now. What's Luke gonna do? Apparently not much, or anything important that accomplishes anything. What are the ancient jedi teachings and how can they help? Well they can't, fuck the Jedi anyway... who needs them? Anything they built up in the superior episode 7 they threw out the door in 8 (with only Rey's parents being interesting) and just left the story a big blank "well, anything can happen now... try and make a theory out of THIS" slate. Well, theories and guesses keep interest going... and 8 didn't leave me particularly interested in seeing episode 9. Unlike 7, which made me want to see episode 8 the second the credits were rolling.

I was left with only 2 questions. Why didn't anything they set up in episode 7 matter, and why didn't Chewie just kill the unhappy porg and then feast on its delicious looking brother? Does cooked porg smell like skunk or something?

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

Overall it was pretty bad.

Superior to the soggy biscuit that was Rogue One, and vastly superior to the Ed Wood level shenanigans in the prequels, but a seriously problematic movie that half derails the entire tentpole trilogy.

Spoiler

Get the good out of the way...

1. Kylo Ren. Anyone bitching about this character or Driver's performance at this point...I have no idea what the fuck you want. The guy is doing a fantastic job, and the character is the only one with any semblance of depth or intrigue at this juncture.
2. The Porgs. They were fabulously annoying and used for good comic effect. It would have been so easy to turn them into mascots, but they remained an aggravation throughout.
3. The visuals on the salt planet were very striking.
4. Benicio Del Toro turned a very minor character into a marginally interesting one, delivering a thematic note we actually haven't heard before.
5. Laura Dern's character and the Battlestar Galactica-y mutiny. It was alright.
6. The force conversations/connection between Rey and Kylo. That felt VERY interesting, and I'm disappointed it appears to have fizzled out so pre-emptorily. Maybe they'll do something with it going forward. Probably the best part of the film as a whole.
7. Some of the other critters, like the village fish people, were amusing.

Now, the bad. Hoo boy.

1. No one advances an arc or moves the story forward in any meaningful way. By under-writing or backtracking most of Abrams mystery box silliness, the movie actually pulls off the remarkable feat of leaving us with LESS of a story than we started with. Poe remains static, Finn remains static (and repeats his character beats), Rey remains static, Kylo remains static. What was the point of the FILM, even? Watch them do some stuff? This isn't episode 7 of a 12 episode television series. This is episode 2 of a 3 episode film trilogy. You CANNOT spin your tires like this.
2. "Your parents were junk traders! Nobodies!" Okay then. Fascinating. A film full of bait, red herrings, prophetic visions, and this is your pay off. That's called a shaggy dog story, writers.
3. The Casino Planet sub plot and subsequent CGI monster spectacle, replete with doe eyed orphans, was pure prequel level tripe. Much like the tentacle monster sequence from Force Awakens, this feels like awful, pace-killing padding.
4. The entire "flight from the First Order" plot line that runs through the entire film feels overlong, never a quarter as tense as it should, and is constantly shot through with deus ex machina moments. Since when can light speed do THAT?
5. Leia using her "fly" power to re-enter the ship was hilariously cheesy. Either kill her or don't have her blown into space.
6. Luke turning into a Force Ghost out of...exhaustion? Apathy? That was a curious decision, and also felt cheesy (and more than a bit unearned).
7. Snoke abruptly dying after a few scenes of full-out camp villainy was terribly pointless. Again, don't build something up in one movie only to say "Ha ha! It all came to nothing!" in the second. Whether you like or hate the idea of him (and I always kind of hated him, especially his goofy name) is irrelevant. It's not good storytelling.
8. Rey is presented a critical obstacle in the form of a landslide blocking the escape of her friends. Has Rey struggled previously to lift heavy items? Is this some kind of crucial character building moment for her? No. She just lifts the rocks and they escape. No tension. Bad storytelling.
9. Finn looks like he's about to die to save the base, which would be a startling demise for his character, bring genuine pathos to the film, and give his character a reason for even existing in the film at all (which he didn't really have up to that point). Nope, derailed. Something about not killing what you hate, but saving what you love. That's what he was trying to do before you stopped him, spunky mechanic girl. Good work.
10. The entire rusty speeder vs walkers sequence came to nothing. They flew out, had a "suicide mission" that went nowhere, and ran back and escaped. Why? To what purpose? It looked neat, but again did nothing to advance the story.
11. When the super mega lightspeed jump of death eviscerates half the fleet and throws the hangar of the big capital ship into disarray, we rejoin Finn and Mechanic Girl and...where are all the troops surrounding them? Oh, they're way off in the distance, marching through some haze? How did that happen? CONTINUITY MATTERS.
12. Finn's big showdown with Phasma fell flat and felt unearned. "I identify as a rebel now, and I'm willing to fight for the cause!". Cool. That was his arc from the first film.
13. Luke's Jedi related ramblings to Rey are interesting and all, but nothing we didn't already know. They do not advance or enrich our understanding of the Force or the Star Wars mythos.

Everyone whined about Force Awakens because it hit many of the same story beats as New Hope, and was an aggressively safe...at times even cowardly...exercise in franchise rebooting. But it did things. It introduced a new world state. It introduced new primary characters and reacquainted us with former ones. It set a stage. The fuck did this movie do on that stage? It did NOTHING. We are left in the EXACT SAME POSITION as we left TFA in. Rey and Kylo are budding Force Users Supreme, and antagonistic. Leia is leading a plucky band of resistance fighters, small but resolute. Finn is a former First Order trooper who has developed a new sense of camaraderie with his fellows and is willing to fight for what he believes in. Poe is a hothead and really good pilot. BB8 is a round droid. Luke and Snoke exit stage right after some scenery mugging, while saying or doing nothing that informs the audience. Only, instead of a grab bag of intriguing (or annoying, depending on your perspective) mysteries and questions about what's to come, we've got...nothing.

It does feels like TFA set up a stage for 'something'. And then TLJ director took a piss on it, went 'taa-daa' some people laughed and cried 'great joke mate!'. Then Rian Johnson flipped J.J. Abrams, set the stage on fire and left with snark 'try to recover from that b#&ch' remark.

 

[Kyrian007]

Oh, and since the mary sue thing derailed this thread for a while anyway...

Yes, Rey is super competent to a ridiculous degree and/or able to do things she shouldn't be able to... she's the HERO in a Campbell HERO'S JOURNEY. THEY ARE ALL that competent with plot armor.

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character. YES "chosen hero" storylines are camp and cliche... they are because THEY WERE SO POPULAR IT BECAME CLICHE. Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on. Nobody cared when it was a bunch of scientists with no prior "energy weapon" training never even accidentally crossing streams while shooting at the SAME GHOST. But apparently put a woman in the role... suddenly they're a 'mary sue.' And all the "well what about X guy, it was dumb and he was super competent" arguments... yeah, that's right. Easy to find the examples... after you need to defend yourself. Ultimately a hero's journey isn't good or bad because its protagonists are 'mary sues' or 'marty stus' or whatever. It actually all comes down to what they do with the character, genitals notwithstanding.

 

[Hawki]

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character.

No. Just no. Rey could be a male and the same problems would apply.

Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on.

Differences:

-Luke had time to train in the X-Wing, and was established to be a competent pilot and a good shot already, not to mention that he needs help getting to the exhaust port. Rey, on the other hand, flies the Millennium Falcon with no apparent experience (the novelization stated that she'd trained in a flight simulator, but the movie doesn't specify this).

-Luke didn't defeat Vader until his third film. Rey defeats Kylo Ren in their very first duel, despite the lack of any Force training.

Last Jedi doesn't help in this regard. Three years pass between New Hope and Empire, so Luke had time to train then, and then spent at least a few days with Yoda. Rey, on the other hand, goes straight to Ach-To, and is able to connect to the Force instantly. That said, the film does make me more sympathetic to Rey. I mean, despite all this, I like Rey as a character, in terms of her personality. Last Jedi does at least put her through some hurdles that she doesn't overcome, in that:

Spoiler

She doesn't defeat Snoke, Kylo does. Also, this time, she doesn't defeat Kylo. Also, she doesn't get any closure for her parents per se. She's emotionally distraught by the revelations, and in the scope of the film, her legacy (and that of the Resistance) is effectively of failure, at least in the short term. She fails to turn Kylo to the Light side, she fails to save the Resistance as an actual fighting force, and if she has the hots for Finn, she's arguably failed in that too, since he now has a bond with Rose. Kylo tells her that she's a nobody, that she has no place in this story, and in the context of Last Jedi by itself, Rey doesn't do anything to disprove that assertion. She may be a powerful Force user, but right now, that can't save the galaxy or the Resistance.

While I have mixed thoughts on the film, The Last Jedi is ultimately a film about failure, and that applies to the protagonists, Rey included.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

Oh, and since the mary sue thing derailed this thread for a while anyway...

Yes, Rey is super competent to a ridiculous degree and/or able to do things she shouldn't be able to... she's the HERO in a Campbell HERO'S JOURNEY. THEY ARE ALL that competent with plot armor.

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character. YES "chosen hero" storylines are camp and cliche... they are because THEY WERE SO POPULAR IT BECAME CLICHE. Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on. Nobody cared when it was a bunch of scientists with no prior "energy weapon" training never even accidentally crossing streams while shooting at the SAME GHOST. But apparently put a woman in the role... suddenly they're a 'mary sue.' And all the "well what about X guy, it was dumb and he was super competent" arguments... yeah, that's right. Easy to find the examples... after you need to defend yourself. Ultimately a hero's journey isn't good or bad because its protagonists are 'mary sues' or 'marty stus' or whatever. It actually all comes down to what they do with the character, genitals notwithstanding.

Spoiler

It's not about the gender. Leia was a strong woman, leading the Rebellion, politician and princess not afraid to get her hands dirty. Being it dabbling with engine, coming to her friends rescue or murdering a crime lord. She was an amazing hero.
But now she's re-written as a space wizard. And utter, selfish c*#t. Who for whatever reason did not feel like using her Jesus powers ever before to save her people, her friends, her family or her husband. She was just interested to save herself from certain death. That's it.

Similar with Luke. Guy who pitied his own father. Despicable murderer, who mutiliated him, tortured his friends and family, ordered to burn his loved ones and was the icon of falling into depths of dark and evil. Luke who was a sole believer that such person can be redeemed, who put his life on the line to prove that. He was a pure hearted hero.
Well now he is re-written to be a coward. Wimp who is afraid of his own shadow, who wants to murder only child of his best friend and his sister, because the emo kid got all confused. Who doesn't have it in him to face anyone or anything, who would rather decipate than act and face the consequences of his chosen path.

Force before was a something that rewarded these heros in crucial moments. It was something to display that if you believe in yourself, if you work for something, if you devote yourself to it, if you keep your course despite horrible things happening to you, eventually force will help out these few lose pieces to fall in place. Land that impossible shot, coordinate that evacuation and keep soldiers spirit up, connect your sole hope, your message with the right people, so all of your work and sacrifice would not be in vain.

Force in new movies? Mana bars (ooops mine got depleted, oh noes), spells and e-peen measurement contests (look at me freezing mah laz0rrZ), annoyance, stupidity and depression (oh noes these voices in my head and muh parents, sooo emo, so confused! Gotta murder and smash things/ gotta hide/gotta do nothing), miracle cures for plot holes and logic defience, ghosts and godlike interventions. No subtelty, no misticism, no self reflection, no deliberations about fate and choices of individuals.

At this point I'd rather watch gungan jedi duel porg sith lord. As long as they just fight and stay silent. Least that would be comedic, mildly entertaining and flashy - all things these last 2 movies have going for them - without raping sideways characters of heroes like Leia, Luke or Han.

 

[Chewster]

There's a lot of anger and negativity surrounding this movie so I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm gonna like it a lot.

Ditto. Any time any hardcore fanboy of anything starts crying about how they "ruined" something I know I'm probably in for fun. Might go see it twice, just for shiggles.

There are some seriously histrionic reviews in this here thread. Like, it's a movie series about laser swords and telepathic space monks, stop acting like Uwe Boll remade Citizen Kane or whatever.

 

[Kyrian007]

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character.

No. Just no. Rey could be a male and the same problems would apply.

I'm not saying she's not too competent, if that's really a problem at all she without a doubt is. But its such an unimportant nitpick that it wouldn't have garnered the wall of online whining if she were a male. Just like Luke didn't.

Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on.

Differences:

-Luke had time to train in the X-Wing, and was established to be a competent pilot and a good shot already, not to mention that he needs help getting to the exhaust port. Rey, on the other hand, flies the Millennium Falcon with no apparent experience (the novelization stated that she'd trained in a flight simulator, but the movie doesn't specify this).

-Luke didn't defeat Vader until his third film. Rey defeats Kylo Ren in their very first duel, despite the lack of any Force training.

[/spoiler]

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

 

[Warhound]

They really dropped the ball on this one.

They completely changed subplots from Episode 7, had plots that were pointless, Luke acted completely wrong to the point that even Mark Hamill was pissed off with the writers, the new admiral was insanely stupid with no leadership skills whatsoever, and her little sacrifice retroactively fucked the previous films up because they could have used that method to solve all of the problems they were faced with.

And thats all without going into super spoiler territory.

I have no idea how they are going to unfuck things for Episode 9.