A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

Oh, and since the mary sue thing derailed this thread for a while anyway...

Yes, Rey is super competent to a ridiculous degree and/or able to do things she shouldn't be able to... she's the HERO in a Campbell HERO'S JOURNEY. THEY ARE ALL that competent with plot armor.

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character. YES "chosen hero" storylines are camp and cliche... they are because THEY WERE SO POPULAR IT BECAME CLICHE. Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on. Nobody cared when it was a bunch of scientists with no prior "energy weapon" training never even accidentally crossing streams while shooting at the SAME GHOST. But apparently put a woman in the role... suddenly they're a 'mary sue.' And all the "well what about X guy, it was dumb and he was super competent" arguments... yeah, that's right. Easy to find the examples... after you need to defend yourself. Ultimately a hero's journey isn't good or bad because its protagonists are 'mary sues' or 'marty stus' or whatever. It actually all comes down to what they do with the character, genitals notwithstanding.

Spoiler

It's not about the gender. Leia was a strong woman, leading the Rebellion, politician and princess not afraid to get her hands dirty. Being it dabbling with engine, coming to her friends rescue or murdering a crime lord. She was an amazing hero.
But now she's re-written as a space wizard. And utter, selfish c*#t. Who for whatever reason did not feel like using her Jesus powers ever before to save her people, her friends, her family or her husband. She was just interested to save herself from certain death. That's it.

Similar with Luke. Guy who pitied his own father. Despicable murderer, who mutiliated him, tortured his friends and family, ordered to burn his loved ones and was the icon of falling into depths of dark and evil. Luke who was a sole believer that such person can be redeemed, who put his life on the line to prove that. He was a pure hearted hero.
Well now he is re-written to be a coward. Wimp who is afraid of his own shadow, who wants to murder only child of his best friend and his sister, because the emo kid got all confused. Who doesn't have it in him to face anyone or anything, who would rather decipate than act and face the consequences of his chosen path.

Force before was a something that rewarded these heros in crucial moments. It was something to display that if you believe in yourself, if you work for something, if you devote yourself to it, if you keep your course despite horrible things happening to you, eventually force will help out these few lose pieces to fall in place. Land that impossible shot, coordinate that evacuation and keep soldiers spirit up, connect your sole hope, your message with the right people, so all of your work and sacrifice would not be in vain.

Force in new movies? Mana bars (ooops mine got depleted, oh noes), spells and e-peen measurement contests (look at me freezing mah laz0rrZ), annoyance, stupidity and depression (oh noes these voices in my head and muh parents, sooo emo, so confused! Gotta murder and smash things/ gotta hide/gotta do nothing), miracle cures for plot holes and logic defience, ghosts and godlike interventions. No subtelty, no misticism, no self reflection, no deliberations about fate and choices of individuals.

At this point I'd rather watch gungan jedi duel porg sith lord. As long as they just fight and stay silent. Least that would be comedic, mildly entertaining and flashy - all things these last 2 movies have going for them - without raping sideways characters of heroes like Leia, Luke or Han.

 

[Chewster]

There's a lot of anger and negativity surrounding this movie so I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm gonna like it a lot.

Ditto. Any time any hardcore fanboy of anything starts crying about how they "ruined" something I know I'm probably in for fun. Might go see it twice, just for shiggles.

There are some seriously histrionic reviews in this here thread. Like, it's a movie series about laser swords and telepathic space monks, stop acting like Uwe Boll remade Citizen Kane or whatever.

 

[Kyrian007]

The very reason its called "MARY SUE" isn't because people have a problem with the type of character, they have a problem with a WOMAN being that type of character.

No. Just no. Rey could be a male and the same problems would apply.

I'm not saying she's not too competent, if that's really a problem at all she without a doubt is. But its such an unimportant nitpick that it wouldn't have garnered the wall of online whining if she were a male. Just like Luke didn't.

Almost nobody cared when it was Luke traveling kilometers per second bullseying a 2 meter port without a computer in favor of using a skill he had practiced for a couple of hours off and on.

Differences:

-Luke had time to train in the X-Wing, and was established to be a competent pilot and a good shot already, not to mention that he needs help getting to the exhaust port. Rey, on the other hand, flies the Millennium Falcon with no apparent experience (the novelization stated that she'd trained in a flight simulator, but the movie doesn't specify this).

-Luke didn't defeat Vader until his third film. Rey defeats Kylo Ren in their very first duel, despite the lack of any Force training.

[/spoiler]

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

 

[Warhound]

They really dropped the ball on this one.

They completely changed subplots from Episode 7, had plots that were pointless, Luke acted completely wrong to the point that even Mark Hamill was pissed off with the writers, the new admiral was insanely stupid with no leadership skills whatsoever, and her little sacrifice retroactively fucked the previous films up because they could have used that method to solve all of the problems they were faced with.

And thats all without going into super spoiler territory.

I have no idea how they are going to unfuck things for Episode 9.

 

[Dansen]

This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

 

[Chewster]

This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Lol calm down

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Well finally went to see the film, and it was a far more enjoyable space fantasy romp than any of the original trilogy (and certainly the bland Rogue One - TLJ had those actual facial expressions with that proper human emotion and character and whatnot; finally people to care about). I keep forgetting the series is basically aimed at the kiddos and parental adultos in a family-film sort of way, as the light/dark premise is inescapably stupid to say the least, but whatevs, I'm here for the entertainment. I blame this imprecise memory on the vast uncritical, unconditional nostalgic love people seem to have for the original trilogy, as it paints a much higher pretense of quality and maturity than they actually have. These are just space fantasy westerns for the kiddos/family and the old trilogy was not that great.

Have to say though, watching hardcore fans having a shitfit over critics like Mark Kermode rating it highly is equal parts baffling, entertaining and depressing. One commenter was pretty much saying Mark had lost all credibility in that one review alone. Hah. Nostalgia is one hell of a *****.

Tldr:[small] This sort of opinion isn't going to help make or maintain any friends here, so...[/small]

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

There's a lot of anger and negativity surrounding this movie so I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm gonna like it a lot.

Ditto. Any time any hardcore fanboy of anything starts crying about how they "ruined" something I know I'm probably in for fun. Might go see it twice, just for shiggles.

There are some seriously histrionic reviews in this here thread. Like, it's a movie series about laser swords and telepathic space monks, stop acting like Uwe Boll remade Citizen Kane or whatever.

They didn't 'ruin' anything.
They just were handed something, that were sure-fire hit and in first iteration played so safe it was bordering pliagiarism and in next iteration it really feels like 2 famous directors were trying to give blue balls one to another. Abrams leaving a lot of open ended but railed into certain direction plots and Johnson, taking and throwing them out of the window (ignoring or ending abruptly). Taking a giant piss at pacing (no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion in this movie) of the trilogy, burning bridges to tie in anything again with former movies, before taking his scheduled exit stage left.
Literally, it feels like a middle finger to Abrams more than anything. I can see the hilarity in this and it is a fun flick to watch but I'd rather 'boys' have had their squabble over something else than 40 years worth of, world recognised sci-fi setting. I am pretty serious when I say I'd rather watch a flick with gungan jedi and porg sith lords, featuring lightsaber duels. Because why the f-k not, it would be as entertaining and at least both directors could have dropped the pretense.

Edit:
I mean just imagine it. Porg sith lord fighting a gungan jedi. You know kids would have loved it and you know you'd have a blast in the theater watching that.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Watching this collective pivot away from TFA is maddening.

Two years ago, I was the proverbial mad man in the town square constantly shushed down by "Don't worry, they still have two films to explain it! Rey might be part of the Super Space Jesus Clan or a secret Kenobi! Finn is probably force-sensitive! Phasma will do something cool next movie!" when I expressed disdain for the insularity of the mythos centering around the same dozen characters and Abrams setting up shit I knew subsequent directors wouldn't bother with. Now, having received a shaggy dog story, all of a sudden everyone is treating Star Wars like Neon Genesis Evangelion and willing to throw TFA under the bus in order to jack off TLJ for its "deconstruction" and subversion and, "Hey, man, heroes fail too..." posturing despite having defended TFA's flaws with the old "They're children's fantasies!" canard. Yes, children want to see that heroes ultimately burn out, betray their values, get divorced, regress, and die ignominiously like Han Solo did.

I get it, though. People are more invested in the meta-narrative than the narrative. They're more interested in the idea of some Alt-Right/neckbeard fanboy gnashing teeth over all the girl power and diversity, OT purists having their noses swatted for being elitist pricks who think "the force" metaphorically belongs to them and crying, "Not my Luke!", or just reconciling how and why adults should continue being obsessed with such children's fairy tales. The story onscreen or this trilogy being internally consistent be-damned.

All the while at Disney: Yeah, yeah, kill the past, but first help us continue clearing 2 billion dollars off brand recognition alone for perpetuity! Aren't you excited for the upcoming Han Solo/Boba Fett/Obi Wan prequel adventures? Minorities in minor roles! PORGS!

Fuck off with this self-serving horseshit!

 

[Pyrian]

Spoiler

As I mentioned: the reason they need a code breaker for the "disable the tracking device" plan is because they need a way past the shields on Snoke's ship. If small craft can get past shields (as seen with Poe's X-Wing and Kylo's TIE Fighter), why would they need codes to get past the shields?

Spoiler

Undetected. They needed to get past the shields undetected.

Spoiler

As I said, my biggest issue with the movie was the fact that the vice admiral doesn't tell anyone what the plan going forward is.

Spoiler

I disagree. You're in military force. You have a plan. That plan depends on the enemy not knowing what that plan is. What's your clearance going to be? "Need to know basis". Heck, Poe even drops that line about his own plan, so it's clearly a thing in the Resistance. Why wouldn't it be in effect for such a move?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I've had a night to sleep on it and yeah, still the worst Star Wars movie I've ever seen, baring maybe those Ewok movies, but only because I haven't seen them in a while.
I imagine going back I'll be impressed with the coherent story, 3 act structure, consistent characters and development and lack of waste.

What an absolute travesty.

 

[Ninjamedic]

Watching this collective pivot away from TFA is maddening.

"But that's the point! Is the single defense I get when I alienate myself at dinner parties by my negativity. It's supposed to be mindless, I'm told. And then those professional types who are safe in loving Star Wars where they might be attacked for reading the latest Robert Silverberg or Thomas Disch sf novel, explain to me as carefully as one would a retarded child, that Star Wars is a return to the worship of the Eternal Verifies: honor, truth, fighting Evil. All black and white. Try black and white in a world of credit cards, punk rock, mastectomies, Watergate, the rise of homegrown Nazism, Anita Bryant, and the terrifying fact that more than half of all serious crimes in the United States are committed by people between the ages of ten and seventeen?-and that includes rape, murder, robbery, aggravated assault and burglary."

Before Rogue One and it's sterilised murder of an innocent man by it's "hero" at the side of the frame I thought Ellison's rant was unfair to what was only intended to be an action adventure throwback with nods to Kurosawa and Flash Gordon as a break in the middle of New Hollywood and not it's eventual killer. Now his writing has become distressingly prophetic.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

no plots or character development is really moved forward in any meaningful fashion in this movie

It is totally fine to not like the movie, but you don't need to exaggerate/lie about what it does. If there's one thing TLJ does, it is provide character development. All of the four new main cast (Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo) get a clear arc in this movie and resolve it neatly with some character growth:

Rey: Learns that her heritage is unimportant and stops trying to find surrogate parents to cling to.
Finn: Gets to see the logical end point of his "I don't want to get involved"-stance and realizes he does not want to become like DJ, thus galvanizing him to take a stand against the First Order.
Poe: Has to face the realization that winning the battle is not winning the war and has to come to terms with following orders and trusting others to do what's right, instead of rushing off to do his own thing.
Kylo: Stops trying to mimic Vader, realizes that Snoke is manipulating him and resolves to reshape the galaxy to his own ideals.

Whether these arcs and plots are any good can be discussed, but they are undoubtedly there.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I loved it. It was different. A lot more different than what people are used to when they think about Star Wars. It's a bit more adult in its approach to certain things. So a lot of people are probably not going to like it. But every character had their big moment, although for some of them the big moment amounts to a complete fuck up, which will hopefully lead to their growth. And that's a big theme for this movie. It feels more like a war epic setting up the grand finale than a standard feel-good Star Wars movie about good triumphing against evil.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I loved it. It was different. A lot more different than what people are used to when they think about Star Wars. It's a bit more adult in its approach to certain things. So a lot of people are probably not going to like it. But every character had their big moment, although for some of them the big moment amounts to a complete fuck up, which will hopefully lead to their growth. And that's a big theme for this movie. It feels more like a war epic setting up the grand finale than a standard feel-good Star Wars movie about good triumphing against evil.

You mean like Empire Strikes back? Or Revenge of the Sith?

And big moments, sure, but ones that are completely out of character and a willfully negligent of the hero's journey. This movie was cinematic malpractice. A designed-by-committee Star Wars knockoff who clearly don't know story structure, let alone Star Wars.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

willfully negligent of the hero's journey.

It's worth pointing out that Joseph Campbell's monomyth is not to be adhered to slavishly. Rather, it's a tool in the toolbox. You don't need to hit the hero's journey beat for beat to make a story feel mythic in scope.

Granted yes, but Luke had already been on the hero's journey. Rey and Finn need not adhere, sure, but Luke already had and their new movie totally erases all heroic value in the character gained from said journey.

Its one thing to have non-traditional characters. Its another to rewrite an already established character to fit an out-of-character moment.
It'd be like going up to Batman and saying 'Batman, the Joker has kidnapped Nightwing and Oracle and is holding at the old abandoned Circus outside of town!'
and Batman just shrugging and going 'I don't fight crime anymore, the Joker wins, there's no point in fighting him"

It goes against the established nature of the character.

 

[Hawki]

Nope, Luke trained in a T-16, an atmospheric ship not a combat starship. Rey had obviously been allowed on the Falcon considering how much she knew about how much was wrong with it. She obviously wanted to fly ships and obsessed over it... again much like Luke. Luke drove an airspeeder well, it was shown in the movie Rey had an airspeeder... not really seeing much difference. And Vader... Kylo Ren is no Vader. A half trained, conflicted and confused emo Vader maybe. Who had just been shot with a freaking bowcaster which the movie shows blasting stormtroopers 30 feet through the air, yet Kylo just tanks it so I'm sure he's far from at his best. It just didn't seem like much of an issue to me. No different than any "chosen one" story really. And the online response seemed very different than most others... where the protagonist is male. Just calling it like I see it.

I know the T-16 is atmospheric, but again, the movie goes to lengths as soon as Luke meets Ben that he's a good pilot. Ben says so, Luke tells Han, Biggs tells Red Leader, and at the end, we see that pay off, and even then, Luke still needs help to make the shot. Likewise, one can infer that he does have enough time to train in an X-Wing (an EU novel does confirm as such). Rey, novelization aside, hasn't been built up as a pilot prior to this point, has likely never flown anything before except her speeder (which isn't aerodynamic at all), and does so expertly.

As for Kylo Ren, sure, he took a bowcaster bolt to the stomach, but even so, while he's hampered physically, he has far more training than Rey. The she wins against him kind of undermines him as a future villain.

This movie is fucking racist and nobody is talking about it. It's not racist because the people in charge believe in racist rhetoric, but rather they are so cynical about their audience that they have to write in a minority love interest for the black male lead, just so that a white woman doesn't have to kiss him. Its so fucked up. Disney makes this big show of having Star Wars be all inclusive to all races and genders, but heaven forbid a black man kisses a white woman on the lips. They are all for "equality(tm)", but when it actually matters, a relationship between two people they hit the breaks. Fuck Rian Johnson, the movie is horrible. I am done with Disney Star Wars movies for at least the next five films. Can't believe this hack is getting his own trilogy.

Lay off the kool aid m8.

Lol calm down

Or what Chewster said.

Granted yes, but Luke had already been on the hero's journey. Rey and Finn need not adhere, sure, but Luke already had and their new movie totally erases all heroic value in the character gained from said journey.

Its one thing to have non-traditional characters. Its another to rewrite an already established character to fit an out-of-character moment.
It'd be like going up to Batman and saying 'Batman, the Joker has kidnapped Nightwing and Oracle and is holding at the old abandoned Circus outside of town!'
and Batman just shrugging and going 'I don't fight crime anymore, the Joker wins, there's no point in fighting him"

It goes against the established nature of the character.

I disagree. Luke's character step can easily occur. If one completes the hero's journey, they're not obliged to stay a paragon for the rest of their life. Considering Luke's experiences, I can easily see him going down the path he did.

Let's use Batman as an example. If your scenario occurs while Bats is in top form, it's weird. But let's say, that, say, twenty years ago, Batman failed to stop the Joker from killing thousands. His failure shook him. What's more, if he hadn't blindly followed his no kill rule, and put the Joker in the ground, those thousands would still be alive. Feeling like he'd failed, believing that he wasn't good for Gotham City, he retired. But at least the Joker seemed to have gone.

Cut forward twenty years later, and Bats has gotten old. So when the Joker comes round, he doesn't feel up to it. Not physically, not mentally, and is wracked by guilt - if he does face the Joker, what then? Kill him? Imprison him, only to let him escape? No. His time has passed. Course Terry McGinnis can do whatever (who's telling Batman this anyway?)

This is off the top of my head, but my point is if that a character seems unflappable and perfect at one point in their character development, they're not guaranteed to stay at that point of said character development, and plenty of characters have been emotionally broken from their experiences, requiring protagonists to shake them out of it.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

But the timing doesn't make sense. In the movie, Luke implies he knew who Snoke was while he was training Ben and the others. He knew about a Dark Lord of the Sith, and the Sith's attempts to get his padawans, and did nothing.
Even knowing there was a darkness growing in Ben, he not only refused to help Ben, but never attempted to stop Snoke, who apparently both Han and Leia knew about too, and did nothing.

And that's all ambivalence before Ben becomes Kylo.

So in keeping with the batman analogy, it'd be that Batman knew about the Joker's plan to murder thousands, chose not to stop him, then when thousands died went all emo and exiled himself. And now, years later, he doesn't care. Even though he obviously didn't care in the first place.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well, at least it's giving something to talk about. Opinions go from BEST STAR WARS MOVIE to WORST STAR WARS MOVIE.

(It's the worst)