A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

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Ninjamedic

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bastardofmelbourne said:
Sorry for the last of a reply here.
As you can imagine, Christmas occurred and I was too busy to reply, and I just think the time has passed.

I wasn't going to see TLJ anyhow and this whole thing only really comes down to taste so I'm gonna bow out rather cross a line into "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T".

I'll just once again say I don't see her as unique in regards to what I'm not fond of in modern blockbusters but eh.
 

Ogoid

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BloatedGuppy said:
It's never that black and white, Ogroid. It's seldom a case of "Roar, I hate vaginas, and thus will condemn all female characters ever for having one", and more likely a case of "My hackles are already up because the character is female, so I'm far more cognizant of flaws/faults than I would be for a NORMAL (I.E. White Male) character." We already had one individual in this thread accusing the thread of "pandering to minorities", and listing "women" as one of them.
If you say so. As I said, I find that the criticism of Rey is based on real writing concerns, and therefore should merit at the very least some consideration, as opposed to instant dismissal based on what amounts to no more than an incredibly uncharitable assumption of not only the motives but the very moral fiber of the people making it.

Yes, Poe is a good pilot. "Poe is an amazing pilot" the film tells us, and he goes on to do amazing stunts for the rest of the film. You do understand what "Mary Sue" means, as a descriptor right? It's character as authorial wish fulfillment. I *believe* it was originally coined as a condemnation of self-authored RPG characters who were always the children of Gods or the best at everything because there was a hyper focus on what would be "cool" rather than what makes for a good narrative device. It's already a slightly cumbersome device to apply to a Star Wars film, where "It's in the film because it was cool" is literally how the entire IP sprung into existence in the first place. Death Star, AT-AT, Lightsabres, none of it makes a lick of pragmatic sense. It's all Rule of Cool. Is Poe a Mary Sue? Absolutely he is. "This guy is the BEST PILOT EVER PEW PEW" is his entire characterization. Rian Johnson tries to texture him a bit by also making him a hot head, but it's kind of like "character texturing 101". It's the sort of thing Stephanie Meyer would do.
Ackchyually, the whole Mary Sue phenomenon began, as I think someone already pointed out in this topic, with Star Trek fandom and fanfiction - which was largely female, by the way - which tended to produce not only characters who were instantly better than everyone else at everything they tried with no training or experience required, but who also were instantly liked by every canonic character besides being rather blatant authorial self inserts.

Luke is a simple bumpkin from the ass end of Nowheresville, Backwatershire. A simple farm boy who in the course of a single film turns the Empire on its ear and performs astounding acts of mystical heroism. Campbell's Monomyth is literally diluted into a single 2 hour film. Lucas never planned a trilogy from the get go. Luke's Hero's Journey is over by the end of the film. Vader is defeated, the Death Star is destroyed, Luke gets a giant ass medal hung around his neck and a kiss from a Princess. It's simple, Archetypal storytelling. This is not HBO's "The Wire". Rey gets a very similar arc in TFA, in large part because TFA is slavishly recreated from the DNA of A New Hope, due to Disney's desire to reboot the IP by evoking the Original Trilogy to wash away the prequel stank. Suddenly, a portion of the fanbase is feverishly incensed at the presence of this UNBEARABLE MARY SUE.
As I understand it, what incensed the fandom was things like a nobody scavenger girl magically knowing the workings of a ship better than two people who manned it for decades, expertly flying said ship despite clearly stating to have never done so before in her life, becoming a near-perfect shot with a blaster the second time she fires one, and effortlessly pulling Jedi tricks it took Luke two films to start pulling off despite not even knowing the Force was a thing until a couple of hours (days?) before.

I obviously don't know whether any of that is in the film, but if it is, it does seem to me worthy of some scrutiny. Because it's simply bad writing, particularly if several instances of it stack upon one another. And pointing out bad writing isn't really that good a reason to indict people's character in my book.

She was. And her writing was terrible. And people did hate the fact she was a 2nd female protagonist.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=star+wars+sjws&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7gNn5-KrYAhUBR2MKHaMPA50Q_AUICygC&biw=1440&bih=777

You don't have to look far, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJfTpAGXK0
Again, I'll take your word as far as the writing is concerned. But while I'm sure one could find people complaining about her if one went actively looking for them, once again, I haven't seen any in my habitual haunts, which should, I've been repeatedly informed, be a veritable breeding place for them.

It's not. Rogue One was AWFUL. And it got plenty of hate, from many of the same sources. It doesn't get nearly as much attention as TFA did because it wasn't the first film in a new trilogy, or the first Star Wars film to be released since the miserable prequels.
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Ogoid said:
If you say so. As I said, I find that the criticism of Rey is based on real writing concerns, and therefore should merit at the very least some consideration, as opposed to instant dismissal based on what amounts to no more than an incredibly uncharitable assumption of not only the motives but the very moral fiber of the people making it.
There is plenty of criticism of Rey. Some based on real writing concerns, some based on a perceived hysteria about "Cultural Marxism" destroying Star Wars by pandering to minorities and women. Did you watch the YouTube video I posted for you? Would it be an insult or a smear against the moral fiber of the speaker if I were to suggest he belongs to the latter camp?

Ogoid said:
Ackchyually, the whole Mary Sue phenomenon began, as I think someone already pointed out in this topic, with Star Trek fandom and fanfiction - which was largely female, by the way - which tended to produce not only characters who were instantly better than everyone else at everything they tried with no training or experience required, but who also were instantly liked by every canonic character besides being rather blatant authorial self inserts.
None of which makes her a Mary Sue.

Ogoid said:
As I understand it, what incensed the fandom was things like a nobody scavenger girl magically knowing the workings of a ship better than two people who manned it for decades, expertly flying said ship despite clearly stating to have never done so before in her life, becoming a near-perfect shot with a blaster the second time she fires one, and effortlessly pulling Jedi tricks it took Luke two films to start pulling off despite not even knowing the Force was a thing until a couple of hours (days?) before.
As discussed at length with the fandom, none of those exaggerated statements are true.

1. She worked on the ship for years. Her boss owned it.
2. She'd flown before. How do we know this? She tells us. This is exactly the same way we found out Luke and Poe had flown before. They told us.
3. The Falcon had been retrofitted by Unkar Plutt. Han hadn't been onboard her for many years. Rey was more familiar with those retrofits than Han, as he was completely unaware of them.
4. She shoots a few Stormtroopers, much as Luke does in A New Hope, despite never having used one before. When faced with Kylo Ren, he easily overcomes her and disarms her. Overcoming a few Stormtroopers is not an act of extreme competence in common Star Wars parlance. Small Teddy Bears do it en masse in the third film.
5. She pulls off one Jedi trick after multiple attempts (influencing a weak mind).

I mean I could go on and on. They're all feeble arguments and nit pickery, and almost blow for blow they are rehashing Luke's similar exploits in A New Hope because she's a Luke stand in. Is fairy tale Heroes Journey in space with magic "strong writing"? Of course not. If people want to take it to task because they're not watching Blade Runner, they are welcome to do so. What gets a little bemusing is when ardent fans of the OT (or, god forbid, the PREQUELS) attempt to construct an argument that the writing for and presentation of Rey in TFA is somehow uniquely bad, or unusual for the series. And when it is CONSTANTLY framed in terms of her gender (it's all girl power/Disney pandering), it's not hard to perceive as being motivated by something other than a dislike for cornball characterization in space adventures. You can whinge about people's "moral fiber" being impugned all you like, but this shit is not particularly hard to spot.

Ogoid said:
I obviously don't know whether any of that is in the film, but if it is, it does seem to me worthy of some scrutiny. Because it's simply bad writing, particularly if several instances of it stack upon one another. And pointing out bad writing isn't really that good a reason to indict people's character in my book.
It's in the film as I just described it to you. In A New Hope, Luke is blocking laser bolts while blindfolded hours after picking up a Lightsaber for the first time. Swinging across gorges and bullseyeing Storm Troopers mere moments after that, and is the best pilot in the entire Rebellion shortly after THAT. Despite being a whiny farm boy whose sole contribution to existence previously was bullseyeing womp rats and moaning about power converters. Is that silly? Yes. Is it "bad writing" as compared to actually well written films? God yes. Did anyone care? No. It was a space fantasy movie inspired by Flash Gordon. It was supposed to be light hearted and cheesy. Why only now do we suddenly care about verisimilitude in Star Wars? Why is it all specifically levied at this one character?

Ogoid said:
Again, I'll take your word as far as the writing is concerned. But while I'm sure one could find people complaining about her if one went actively looking for them, once again, I haven't seen any in my habitual haunts, which should, I've been repeatedly informed, be a veritable breeding place for them.
You don't have to look hard. I googled "Star Wars" and "SJW" and there's pages and pages of it. If you haven't seen any, that might have something to do with you not looking/not caring about the subject. The video I sent you was from Rebel Media. Other "Goober Gators" were quite excited to share Rebel Media links with us back in the day, as they were often busying themselves screeching at feminists and sneering at liberals and that was like fucking catnip for the right audience.

Ogoid said:
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.
The volume of criticism rises and falls with the popularity and scope of the thing being criticized. This is hardly a startling revelation, Ogoid.
 

runic knight

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General opinion of the film? It was entertaining but full of problems.

While the humor mostly lands, the characters are likeable enough (most of them, anyways), and the action entertaining enough to keep me interested, the movie had terrible writing, plenty of lore and universe problems, and countless plotholes that just took me out of the movie constantly and made what seemed to be a simple enjoyable film into a frustrating one. I'd say if you want to see it, wait til it is on tv or netflix.

And, only warning, spoilers abound after this point.

First, while the humor largely worked, there seemed to be too much of it and too often in ways that hurt the tone of the time. For every time it worked to help show characterization and warmth, there was one that fell flat or undermined the tone. Something good would be luke's meeting with R2 ending with R2 showing the original "help me, obiwon" clip only to be met with a "that was a low blow" style quip from luke at R2's attempt to persuade him to join back up. It showed their friendship and the heart of the old farmboy was still there under the grumpy demeanor. Compare that to the visual gag in the casino of a CGI alien "opera singer" mugging for the camera like they were in a 90's era direct to video sequel. Or the tonal whiplash of the opening scene with poe prank calling the first order as his friends and comrades try to flee for their lives. I liked that they remembered to have fun, as the prequels seemed to largely forget that, but they overdid it and often it failed as much as landed.

Next, they squander every plot setup they made before. Snoke's point/purpose/history? Gone. Rey's parents? Pointless. Why did luke make the map? IDK. The scene where he first gets the lightsaber back defines this problem. He tosses it behind him like it is shit. Rejection of the entire point of the first film in spirit and visual. Not even a solemn dropping of it and going "no, i can't anymore", just a strait up joke out of denying the potential of the previous film. Complete with forced insertion of the toy mascots playing with it.

Thirdly, while the characters were likeable enough, there were many who had problems, or were unsalvageable.

Lets start with the worst. Hodor was just bad. I think they were going for some sort of angry police chief to poe's doesn't-play-by-the-rules cop, but in the situation they were in she instead came off as entirely incompetent, if not outright traitorous. She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar. She refused to tell anyone she had a plan at all (as people siding with poe demonstrates). She is the ENTIRE reason for the rose/finn subplot, and the subsequent death of nearly all the resistance ships that resulted in. Her death was the loss of a character no one cared about prior to the movie but treated as something people should care about. And her method of self sacrifice left still had me pointing out how badly she failed as a leader. While some would argue that warp-speed into a dreadnaught shouldn't work that way, what I was wondering was why they didn't try that with every other large ship prior, instead of sacrificing them like they had. If her ship alone caused so much damage, having the medical frigate or others do it as well, even if only half the damage, it would have devastated the first order or even killed the head of the snake. Hell, you could have given characters like Ackbar a worthwhile sendoff as being a hero who was once a slave driving the ship right into their faces instead of unceremoniously blasted into space for the sole reason of showing off leia's superman pose.

On to the next new major character, Rose. She was ok, funny introduction, but it always felt like her sister should have been the character that had that role, not her. That might have been part of the point, but she felt out of place, like a tag-along. Even the stuff in the casino, with the decryptor, and so on had me feeling that way. The saving of flinn was odd as well, and the romance angle felt super forced. Still, I don't hate her character nor do I think they were central point in a long series of character and plot problems like hodor.

To the main characters, they largely remained consistent and enjoyable. Poe was, well, poe. Even though the joking at the intro of the move felt like bad juxtaposition with the tone of the rebels fleeing, it did feel right that his character would be the one to do that, and he remained consistently enjoyable even through the forced "lesson" about brashness. The character growth was poorly handled but that is about the worst there.

With Flinn, he went from concern about his friend, to joining the rebellion. And he beat the chrome trooper. Both of which would have been more impressive if they had been set up better, but still not bad and he was an enjoyable character to watch.

Phasma. Wasted, again. My biggest complaint about her in the previous movie was that it should have been her, not a nameless trooper, that called flinn a traitor and fought him. As if hearing my complaints, this movie does just that. And then as per norm, seems to mess it up as they try to double-down on the vibro axes, and half the screen-time and point. Disappointing, but I hope they bring her back again.

Rey. Still a mary sue. She instantly gets luke's first lesson which he himself didn't for a long time. She masters the lightsaber enough to fight multiple red guards. Her previous points of being a mary sue were still in effect as well. Enjoyable enough to watch, but it gets annoying.

Kilo. He wears his pants too high and it is weird and distracting. Otherwise, a good capture of a character conflicted every which way, still a child in mind, still seeking approval, still unsure and emotional.

Snoke. Hugh Hefner gold robe and wasted potential. Also pretty damn dumb, though it was so telegraphed that in a better written movie, it could have been a great ploy to get himself killed just so he too could be "more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

Luke. Seemed the character was changed into someone who went from being unable to deny the light in a seemingly irredeemable man who murdered countless, into one who tried to murder his nephew at the first hint of darkness. Also the blue milk thing... just why?

Leia. I get people wanted to see her use force powers, but superman still wants his green-screen back. Could just have shown the bridge damaged and she use her power to lift wreckage out of the way.

But that ties into the last point. The CGI. Too much of the film looked bad for it. Be it the plastic Porg-roast chewie had, the dog-horses at the casino, or the very fake looking effects around the characters in many scenes, the visuals felt like a step down. Even things that were animatronics, such as the crystal foxes, looked fake because of the bckgrounds.

...That was longer than I expected.
 

BloatedGuppy

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undeadsuitor said:
Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl
The volume of the screeching is because she's a girl. It's not like there's nothing wrong with the character. Other than Kylo Ren, it's hard to think of a character from the new films that merits much praise. She has some basic character texturing...she's pugnacious and earnest and eager for praise...but in terms of having a coherent arc she's all over the place. Much like Finn and Poe, she spent almost the entirety of TLJ spinning her tires.

But I mean, this is the Star Wars fandom we're talking about. There would be screeching about Dexter Jettster if anyone could remember his fucking name.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Ogoid said:
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.

runic knight said:
She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar
Ackbar's actor was actually one of the casualties of 2016. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Bauersfeld]
 

sneakypenguin

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It was so good, but then it was also sooo bad. It was fun and I enjoyed it, but walking back to the car I was like hmmm that scene didn't quite make sense, why is this character like that... until by the time I got home I had a whole list of things that were wrong with it. I know star wars has always been scifi fantasy ... but... it seemed to just ignore its established universe and basic logic though.

After the spectacle and nice shots were over and all thats left is your memories of the story and scenes it just fking implodes.
 

runic knight

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undeadsuitor said:
Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl
Yeah, that is why characters like Mara Jade and Jaina Solo are fan favorites of the same nerds who are complaining about rey and the movie today. Not because she was poorly written, poorly implemented, a blatant marry sue, and was harbinger of the death of beloved characters in the franchise, nope, just a pair of ovaries...

Because if it wasnt, people would be making a similar big deal about an imperial janitor who doesn't have force powers wielding a lightsaber with no training into battle twice. Using it effectively both times.

And fighting a trained sith, with no force powers, and not instantly dying

A janitor with no fighting experience or force powers who went AWOL on his first mission used a lightsaber for longer and more effectively than an untrained jedi

But she's the overpowered one
Wait, you mean Finn? The guy who was said to be exceptionally martially skilled during the Force Awakens and was kept out of fights because of his mental problems with the sort of scum and villainy the imperials did? Hell, I am pretty sure they even lampshaded why they kept him around in the movies by specifically mentioning that he was really skilled, just was a bit of a wuss. He was considered one of the best stormtroopers of his unit even. Hell, Phasma (a character everyone says was wasted, rather odd if people didn't like characters because they were girls) specifically kept note on him because of his exceptional skill.

You are trying to compare Rey's Mary Sue bullshit with him being able to survive using a lightsaber (First order being the group they are, him being trained in combat with and against one being very reasonable to assume)?

Rey lived in middle of no where, no training, no experience. She was able to excel in using the force, fly han's ship better than he could, out-fight a trained sith, and was beloved or wanted by everyone who met her all in the duration of what, hours?. Were this a written fanfic instead of an acted one, she would be called a self-insert mary sue without complaint. Comparing all that to an established exceptionally trained trooper as a counter point is laughable. Finn might not be the best written character (can be a bit one-note in the first film), but comparing that to rey only works as a point of example of how badly her character was written.

bastardofmelbourne said:
runic knight said:
She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar
Ackbar's actor was actually one of the casualties of 2016. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Bauersfeld]
This makes me sad. Still, even something like a quiet and wordless salute as he drove a medial frigate into the first Order's face would have been better than random explosion killing him and jettisoning his corpse into space like trash.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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inu-kun said:
altnameJag said:
inu-kun said:
But being a janitor doesn't make you adept at signal processing so it's still dumb. Fat asian lady being a technician raises a question of why did they give a job with potential violent outcomes to a single none-fit person who might be knowlegable enough to help the situation rather than give it to the pilots or regular disciplinary officers who don't have anything to do right now. It's bad writing of jamming two characters together despite the location makes no sense.
Granted if I think the Resistance is made of morons it makes perfect sense.
...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.
1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.
1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.
 

Chessrook44

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I saw this movie last night and, quite frankly, I hated it. It was a bad movie. MaRey Sue was as horrible as ever, Rose quickly became a second hated character, Luke and Yoda seemed a bit our of character, at least two characters I can't even remember the name of, and frankly...

Well, the best thing I can say is that at least they learned from Force Awakens. They did a SLIGHTLY better job disguising that this was effectively a shitty Empire Strikes Back rehash. Just move the Battle of Not Hoth to the END instead of the start, and stick a bit of Return of the Jedi in the middle, and nobody will notice a thing! Good job, top notch.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Chessrook44 said:
I saw this movie last night and, quite frankly, I hated it. It was a bad movie. MaRey Sue was as horrible as ever, Rose quickly became a second hated character, Luke and Yoda seemed a bit our of character, at least two characters I can't even remember the name of, and frankly...

Well, the best thing I can say is that at least they learned from Force Awakens. They did a SLIGHTLY better job disguising that this was effectively a shitty Empire Strikes Back rehash. Just move the Battle of Not Hoth to the END instead of the start, and stick a bit of Return of the Jedi in the middle, and nobody will notice a thing! Good job, top notch.
MaRey Sue wasn't as horrible as ever: she was even more horrible here. She was already overpowered in TFA, but here she's relegated to a completely reactive protagonist for most of the movie. And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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bartholen said:
And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.
In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly? One of the chief praises/criticisms (depending on the view of the person speaking) is that it breaks a lot from the conventional Star Wars mould and only very superficially resembles ESB (the rebels are on the run, the jedi goes looking for a mentor). It keeps a bunch of things as throwbacks to ESB, like a fight between walkers and guys in trenches on a white planet, but the narrative structure is entirely different and the beats are not even in the same realm.

Just to highlight the most obvious: In ESB Luke leaves Yoda despite not having finished his training, in TLJ Rey leaves Luke because he's unwilling and unable to teach her more then he has. There's literally no plot line in TLJ similar to the Bespin plot and ESB has nothing like the Star Destroyer heist. You can accuse TLJ of a lot of things and disliking it is fine (as the Film Crit Hulk claimed that Tarantino once told him: Never hate a movie), but getting too grandiose in your criticism or criticizing things which aren't even there just makes you look like someone crazy or someone with an agenda.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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inu-kun said:
altnameJag said:
inu-kun said:
altnameJag said:
inu-kun said:
But being a janitor doesn't make you adept at signal processing so it's still dumb. Fat asian lady being a technician raises a question of why did they give a job with potential violent outcomes to a single none-fit person who might be knowlegable enough to help the situation rather than give it to the pilots or regular disciplinary officers who don't have anything to do right now. It's bad writing of jamming two characters together despite the location makes no sense.
Granted if I think the Resistance is made of morons it makes perfect sense.
...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.
1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.
1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.
1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched. 2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away). 3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.
1) Nobody said he was a "simple janitor". Self-deprecating humor shouldn't be taken literally.
2) Obviously she can handle it, given she'd done it before.
3) They're resistance fighters trying to shamefully run away, not commandos trying to kill the starship mechanic. Kelly Marie Tran weighs less than 125 lbs. Is that what counts as "too fat to be believable" in your world? Really? According to the hilariously simplified standard of the BMI scale, she's got a BMI in the low 20's. A.k.a: This is what normal people look like. Shame you're so stuck in "Hollywood pretty" to recognize it.

'Course, this is also the first time I've heard that short and stocky is a disadvantage in a fight. Outside of competitive sport fighting anyway. And still irrelevant when she's armed with a stun gun.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Gethsemani said:
bartholen said:
And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.
In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly? One of the chief praises/criticisms (depending on the view of the person speaking) is that it breaks a lot from the conventional Star Wars mould and only very superficially resembles ESB (the rebels are on the run, the jedi goes looking for a mentor). It keeps a bunch of things as throwbacks to ESB, like a fight between walkers and guys in trenches on a white planet, but the narrative structure is entirely different and the beats are not even in the same realm.

Just to highlight the most obvious: In ESB Luke leaves Yoda despite not having finished his training, in TLJ Rey leaves Luke because he's unwilling and unable to teach her more then he has. There's literally no plot line in TLJ similar to the Bespin plot and ESB has nothing like the Star Destroyer heist. You can accuse TLJ of a lot of things and disliking it is fine (as the Film Crit Hulk claimed that Tarantino once told him: Never hate a movie), but getting too grandiose in your criticism or criticizing things which aren't even there just makes you look like someone crazy or someone with an agenda.
The best way I can describe it is that the film felt like it was made by the member berries from South Park:

"'Member the red guards? 'Member the Emperor's throne room? 'Member Hoth? 'Member AT-ATs? 'Member puppet Yoda? 'Member how a jedi in training went to a place of the dark side? 'Member how Luke tried to get Vader to turn? 'Member when the heroes had to infiltrate the enemy base? 'Member the Millennium Falcon coming to a last minute rescue? 'Member how Yoda dies? 'Member the Leia recording with R2-D2? 'Member C-3PO (why the hell is he in this movie)?"

Maybe rehash was the wrong word. In terms of narrative and structure it is rather different. But for all its talk about letting old things die it's still 10 feet deep in nostalgia and fan pandering. By referring back to things like Yoda and Darth Sidious the film also raises questions about its universe TFA didn't because it ignored them: how exactly did the First Order gain such power? Who is Snoke? Where does he come from? How did he reach Kylo Ren and what did he do to him that made Luke Skywalker give him less a chance than Darth Vader, a genocidal tyrant who'd been steeped in the dark side for decades? And why in the flying fuck is this rebellion resistance consisting of precisely one major cruiser and a severely reduced fleet such a threat that the greatest military power in the galaxy needs to send all their biggest guns after them, with their supreme goddamn leader in tow? Oh, they keep talking about how there's dissent across the galaxy. Telling, not showing. One scene with a bunch of slave kids ain't gonna cut it. And now that the thing the whole resistance banked on, ie. Luke Skywalker, is dead, how are they still the saviors of the galaxy?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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inu-kun said:
1) So in addition to being a simple ground troop Finn is also a super engineer, trully masterful writing.
Or he's a guy who does basic maintenance and was sharp enough to be earmarked for Stormtrooper training. There's shades between utter incompetence and genius master.

EDIT:Seriously, the idea that a starship's primary systems all have dedicated circuits isn't the part that was obfuscated in any way. That's true of damn near every ship. What Rose and Poe didn't know was where on an FO Star Destroyer those primary circuits would be located. Finn, presumably, knows where the circuit breakers are. Plus, Facists are stupid.
2) The fact the writing is bad shouldn't have us take it in face value.
"I refuse to believe military personal could be combat effective if their face is round"
3) Who said "too fat to be believable"? I simply said she has an insane physical disadvantage for the job and can be beaten by a taller person wielding a 2 by 4 without problem. Or simply two people encircling her. The fact they will try to run away doesn't mean they turned off their brain cells.
And, obviously, that didn't happen. News flash: anybody can be beaten by somebody wielding a 2x4. But there's a fair bit of difference between somebody wanting to escape and somebody being willing to murder a comrade to do so. But I'm glad you don't think it's unbelievable that somebody with an insane physical disadvantage would be given guard duty because they're "short and stocky" (despite not being fat). The stun gun, apparently, still isn't rated, nor the idea that people who routinely engage in physical labor tending to have more muscle than average. Starship engineers probably lift a fair number of things over the course of a day. Cabling, power couplings, radiation shields, etc...
And it still has the question "why the fuck an engineer is relegated this task?".
Dunno if you noticed, but they're kinda short staffed because of the whole "secretly funded guerrilla warfare unit on the run" thing. 'Course, I know an ICBM mechanic who's done more than one shift of guard duty when the Air Force needed bodies, so that's not weird to me.
 

Catnip1024

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Meh. I'd give it 7/10, albeit in my own personal ranking system. TFA would have been 4.

Maybe I just accepted it as having a more light-hearted tone than previously, but the characters worked alright. The consideration of a bit more than the typical black and white was quite nice to see, if ultimately a little underwhelming (That cave. Either have something interesting happen, or get her to do a barbershop quartet with the reflections. Come on, Disney).

Just to chuck my tuppence in on the Rose debate, I thought she was a decent character, up to the ludicrous saving Finn part. First, she ain't fat. Get a grip, folks. Second, it isn't racist to call her fat. Seriously. Third, it's made abundantly clear that the Alliance is struggling for people, as you can see from the string of work-experience kids on the desks in the bridge. Why assume they have more people available and trustworthy enough to guard the pods? The saving Finn bit was completely misjudged, though. Even forgetting about the physical impossibility.

Gethsemani said:
In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly?
My problem is, the overall shape of the trilogy is virtually identical as it stands. The continual self-referencing isn't great, but it is the fact that this film only really serves to bridge the gap between the start and the finale. Jedi training, some plot development, and ultimately a sense of not a lot actually having happened. At least in Attack of the Clones, there was some interesting things actually occurring.

I mean, okay, the big bad has died, and that could lead to an interesting direction in the final film. But it didn't stop the sense of deja vu while I was in there.
 

Catnip1024

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inu-kun said:
1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched.
To weigh into this one - IRL, there are hefty training requirements for working on ships or rigs. Stuff like patching holes, or fighting fires. And to fight a fire, you have to know what are the really important bits you need to protect. You have to know what the consequences of bits being disabled would be. One would expect that the crew of a galactic vessel would receive similar training, particularly as it is designed for combat.

2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away).
First, she was hidden and out of sight. Second, see above post regarding lack of personnel. Third, she's got a taser. You don't need to be a kickboxer to tase someone.

3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.
But an advantage if you are being shot at. Swings and roundabouts.
 

Gatx

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I'm just trying not to have an aneurysm looking at Youtube videos and comment sections about the movie (I'm looking at you, AngryJoe) and had to break my years long absence from the escapist to get it out SOMEWHERE.

I saw the movie recently, absolutely loved it but admit that there are problems. I enjoyed the overall message of the film but thought it was handled messily. Luke admitting his failure and Yoda teaching him how to be a better teacher essentially, great. Whole lightning on the tree thing, kinda weird. Like why did Yoda set the tree on fire unless the point was that the books are unimportant, but then if they're unimportant why did Rey need to steal them and teach the things that Yoda thinks is pointless ...

Also loved the message of the Canto Bright portion but Rose's lines were a heavy handed and was a bit hippie/hipster millennial activist, "Yeah we really stuck it to the man because we physically trashed a casino while the rest of the city still functions."

The gray-ness of the conflict, with the Resistance and First Order being funded by war profiteers, awesome, but just seemed out of place since the rest of the plot doesn't go into it. At one point I thought Holdo was going to be in league with these warmongers but nope.

The lore related complaints that I see against this movie though, my god, they are so nitpicky and are, in my opinion, mostly unwarranted. Like the Knights of Ren, Rey's parentage, Snoke, etc. set ups not being followed, I don't think those are TLJ's fault, it's TFA's. J.J. Abrams' mystery box way of film making sets up enticing questions that can never be satisfyingly solved because EVEN HE DOESN'T KNOW THE ANSWER, because for Abrams' the mystery is the important part. He's the one who left fans with all these crazy questions that they pondered over for two years and Rian Johnson did not want that baggage, symbolically shown with Rey handing over the reins to Luke and Luke tossing that shit away. TLJ should not be judged based on how well it answered or didn't answer a question you personally had been dying to know according to your whims. Then again I didn't care for the theories but if you were more invested you might've taken it more personally.

The inconsistency of the universe though, like what's the deal with the First Order, the Resistance and the New Republic is also TFA's problem. The fact that the Resistance exists under the command of Leia to counter the small but growing threat of the First Order because the New Republic doesn't want to keep fighting (Basically the plot of the later Harry Potter books) is something that should have been in the opening crawl because it's the main source of conflict in the galaxy, but TFA never addresses it outside of who's good, who's bad and that they are fighting.

runic knight said:
Why did luke make the map? IDK.
I see this around a lot but I don't think Luke is the one who made the map. If he wanted people to find him why wouldn't he have just told Leia through the Force or even let her know before he left. The found him against his will thinking he wouldn't mind coming back to save the galaxy, but he was actually hiding because he was ashamed that he actually sparked the problem.
 

runic knight

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Gatx said:
runic knight said:
Why did luke make the map? IDK.
I see this around a lot but I don't think Luke is the one who made the map. If he wanted people to find him why wouldn't he have just told Leia through the Force or even let her know before he left. The found him against his will thinking he wouldn't mind coming back to save the galaxy, but he was actually hiding because he was ashamed that he actually sparked the problem.
Then, if not Luke, who made the map? Who else knew where he was when even Leia and her force-connection could not find him? Makes less sense if it wasn't Luke, since R2 had half the map in the first one, didn't he? It is just confusing.

Honestly, it looks like the director in this one just wanted to shit on all the potential of force awakens by giving clear ends to all the questions raised by it, or cutting away any unanswered bits in the worst way possible.
 

wizzy555

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Quick Mary Sue round up:
Not Mary Sue- Ray didn't really contribute to killing Snoke apart from serving as a distraction.
Is Mary Sue- Ray sought out the only person in the Universe capable of improving her character and it turned out he needed her to improve him and she didn't even need to even open a book after all.