A new Star Wars happened, and opinions are released upon us like nibbling hounds demanding biscuits

BloatedGuppy

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Ogoid said:
I only mentioned my being a GooberGator because it means I hang out in places where these people are supposed to congregate (hell, I am one of these people if you ask most of our purveyors of Truth at the noble institution of the Fourth Estate), and every criticism of the character of Rey I've come across in any of them has been at least considerably more substantial than "because vagina"; and to dismiss it as such shows, in my opinion, not only a complete lack of anything even remotely resembling a willingness to engage in a discussion in good faith, but in fact, a readiness to condemn someone as so reprehensible a human being as to hate half the world's population... over what? Some arguably shoddy writing in a Hollywoood blockbuster?
It's never that black and white, Ogroid. It's seldom a case of "Roar, I hate vaginas, and thus will condemn all female characters ever for having one", and more likely a case of "My hackles are already up because the character is female, so I'm far more cognizant of flaws/faults than I would be for a NORMAL (I.E. White Male) character." We already had one individual in this thread accusing the thread of "pandering to minorities", and listing "women" as one of them.

Ogoid said:
As for this "Poe" character... isn't he a Han Solo type of character? Han was a good pilot too; nobody minded because he was presented to the audience that way from the get-go. Besides, they're support cast, not protagonists.
Yes, Poe is a good pilot. "Poe is an amazing pilot" the film tells us, and he goes on to do amazing stunts for the rest of the film. You do understand what "Mary Sue" means, as a descriptor right? It's character as authorial wish fulfillment. I *believe* it was originally coined as a condemnation of self-authored RPG characters who were always the children of Gods or the best at everything because there was a hyper focus on what would be "cool" rather than what makes for a good narrative device. It's already a slightly cumbersome device to apply to a Star Wars film, where "It's in the film because it was cool" is literally how the entire IP sprung into existence in the first place. Death Star, AT-AT, Lightsabres, none of it makes a lick of pragmatic sense. It's all Rule of Cool. Is Poe a Mary Sue? Absolutely he is. "This guy is the BEST PILOT EVER PEW PEW" is his entire characterization. Rian Johnson tries to texture him a bit by also making him a hot head, but it's kind of like "character texturing 101". It's the sort of thing Stephanie Meyer would do.

Ogoid said:
It's absolutely fine to write badass characters. You just have to be consistent. If you go out of your way to write your hero as some simple bumpkin from the ass-end of Nowheresville, Backwatershire - particularly if you're going for an archetypical, Campbell-esque Hero's Journey - you can't have them instantly succeed at everything they do, or what you end up with is an unsatisfying story.
Luke is a simple bumpkin from the ass end of Nowheresville, Backwatershire. A simple farm boy who in the course of a single film turns the Empire on its ear and performs astounding acts of mystical heroism. Campbell's Monomyth is literally diluted into a single 2 hour film. Lucas never planned a trilogy from the get go. Luke's Hero's Journey is over by the end of the film. Vader is defeated, the Death Star is destroyed, Luke gets a giant ass medal hung around his neck and a kiss from a Princess. It's simple, Archetypal storytelling. This is not HBO's "The Wire". Rey gets a very similar arc in TFA, in large part because TFA is slavishly recreated from the DNA of A New Hope, due to Disney's desire to reboot the IP by evoking the Original Trilogy to wash away the prequel stank. Suddenly, a portion of the fanbase is feverishly incensed at the presence of this UNBEARABLE MARY SUE.

Ogoid said:
Besides, wasn't the protagonist of Rogue One a woman, too? I mean, if that's the point of contention, why aren't these supposed woman-haters putting all that effort into finding flaws in her writing?
She was. And her writing was terrible. And people did hate the fact she was a 2nd female protagonist.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=star+wars+sjws&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7gNn5-KrYAhUBR2MKHaMPA50Q_AUICygC&biw=1440&bih=777

You don't have to look far, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJfTpAGXK0

Ogoid said:
Could it be that it is simply better? Could that be, perhaps, a more resonable motive to assume of them in the first place, instead of outright moral condemnation?
It's not. Rogue One was AWFUL. And it got plenty of hate, from many of the same sources. It doesn't get nearly as much attention as TFA did because it wasn't the first film in a new trilogy, or the first Star Wars film to be released since the miserable prequels.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Just saw it. SPOILERS AHEAD. Away we go:

I went into this with the mindset that if this was going to elicit as little reaction as Rogue One I would be done with Star Wars. And it almost did that. Almost. It barely scraped by by having an interesting character dynamic with Kylo Ren, which makes me wonder what direction they're going to take with it. Which is probably pointless, since this movie was about as cookie-cutter and safe as I was expecting.

And honestly, that's about all the good I can say about this film. This film is maddening on so many levels.

Story
What fucking story? One of the rebels just chugging along in their spaceships, one of the supposed main character sitting on her ass. And a completely pointless C-plot that serves nothing but incredibly flimsy worldbuilding and some special effects. Oh, and of fucking course you had to give both the new prominent creatures those big baby seal eyes to tell to the audience "YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR THESE. DO YOU FEEL BAD YET?????" The main story here is with Luke, and the others exist to only distract from it with special effects.

Characters
Rey is a fucking terrible character in this film. I like Daisy Ridley, I think she's charismatic and likable, but my fucking God did the writers drop the ball on this. She's an entirely reactive protagonist for 90% of the film. Her story is only dictated by things that happen to her or someone else does for her, not by choices she herself chooses or is forced to make. First she has to wait for Luke to teach her. Which is not achieved by persistence, good rhetoric or social skills. She just waves a lightsaber around some until Luke seems to give up more out of annoyance than conviction. Then she has those Skype conversations with Kylo, which we later find out were enabled by Snoke, so that's another thing out of her control she did nothing to achieve. Speaking of Kylo, he almost feels like a background character and...



You know what? I was going to go on a whole rant about how this is more recycling of the same, lazy writing (it's never been established how the First Order or Snoke got into power, OR WHAT SNOKE EVEN FUCKING IS), thin plot, lame-ass characters, shit story, poor pacing, ass-pulls of the highest (First) order (Leia and Jedi ghosts can now apparently use the force) but... I honestly don't care. After trying (and failing) to get Doom to work properly for almost 2 hours, the movie has now almost completely disappeared from my mind. This is the most insipid film I've seen all year bar Justice League. For all its talk about how "it's time for old things to die", it sure seems awfully comfortable languishing in Star Wars nostalgia, once again essentially recreating visual references and entire scenes from the originals.

If anything, this film makes me both glad and mad about movies like Deadpool and Logan: glad because they got made before the House of Mouse got its gloved mitts on them, and mad because I know those fuckers will never, ever, ever let filmmakers make movies like those again. This is basically the baseline for what we can accept from the future: safe, insubstantial, unmemorable, drab, colourless slop where a shitton of things happen yet nothing happens at the same time, and Disney keeps laughing their way to the bank.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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BloatedGuppy said:
I *believe* it was originally coined as a condemnation of self-authored RPG characters who were always the children of Gods or the best at everything because there was a hyper focus on what would be "cool" rather than what makes for a good narrative device.
It originated in Star Trek Fan Fic circles (as a parody of Fan Fic no less), where it described characters that were obvious authorial inserts and wish fulfillment. TV tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue] has a pretty good run down of what a Mary Sue can be, though the term obviously has different meanings in different places.

Rey can definitely be called a half-baked character in TFA, but Mary Sue is hard as we learn absolutely nothing of her background and the exceptional background (which orphan junk scavenger really isn't) component isn't there. What skills she has are not extraordinary in the universe she is in, as there are better pilots (two shows up in the very movie), better mechanics (one or two, depending on if you count BB-8, in the same movie) better shots (three in the same movie) and better force users (three shows up, but only one uses his force powers). What Rey has is essentially quick wit and iron will, which isn't enough to be a Mary Sue. But I think you nail the reason why she gets called it pretty well.
 

Ninjamedic

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bastardofmelbourne said:
Sorry for the last of a reply here.
As you can imagine, Christmas occurred and I was too busy to reply, and I just think the time has passed.

I wasn't going to see TLJ anyhow and this whole thing only really comes down to taste so I'm gonna bow out rather cross a line into "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T".

I'll just once again say I don't see her as unique in regards to what I'm not fond of in modern blockbusters but eh.
 

Ogoid

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BloatedGuppy said:
It's never that black and white, Ogroid. It's seldom a case of "Roar, I hate vaginas, and thus will condemn all female characters ever for having one", and more likely a case of "My hackles are already up because the character is female, so I'm far more cognizant of flaws/faults than I would be for a NORMAL (I.E. White Male) character." We already had one individual in this thread accusing the thread of "pandering to minorities", and listing "women" as one of them.
If you say so. As I said, I find that the criticism of Rey is based on real writing concerns, and therefore should merit at the very least some consideration, as opposed to instant dismissal based on what amounts to no more than an incredibly uncharitable assumption of not only the motives but the very moral fiber of the people making it.

Yes, Poe is a good pilot. "Poe is an amazing pilot" the film tells us, and he goes on to do amazing stunts for the rest of the film. You do understand what "Mary Sue" means, as a descriptor right? It's character as authorial wish fulfillment. I *believe* it was originally coined as a condemnation of self-authored RPG characters who were always the children of Gods or the best at everything because there was a hyper focus on what would be "cool" rather than what makes for a good narrative device. It's already a slightly cumbersome device to apply to a Star Wars film, where "It's in the film because it was cool" is literally how the entire IP sprung into existence in the first place. Death Star, AT-AT, Lightsabres, none of it makes a lick of pragmatic sense. It's all Rule of Cool. Is Poe a Mary Sue? Absolutely he is. "This guy is the BEST PILOT EVER PEW PEW" is his entire characterization. Rian Johnson tries to texture him a bit by also making him a hot head, but it's kind of like "character texturing 101". It's the sort of thing Stephanie Meyer would do.
Ackchyually, the whole Mary Sue phenomenon began, as I think someone already pointed out in this topic, with Star Trek fandom and fanfiction - which was largely female, by the way - which tended to produce not only characters who were instantly better than everyone else at everything they tried with no training or experience required, but who also were instantly liked by every canonic character besides being rather blatant authorial self inserts.

Luke is a simple bumpkin from the ass end of Nowheresville, Backwatershire. A simple farm boy who in the course of a single film turns the Empire on its ear and performs astounding acts of mystical heroism. Campbell's Monomyth is literally diluted into a single 2 hour film. Lucas never planned a trilogy from the get go. Luke's Hero's Journey is over by the end of the film. Vader is defeated, the Death Star is destroyed, Luke gets a giant ass medal hung around his neck and a kiss from a Princess. It's simple, Archetypal storytelling. This is not HBO's "The Wire". Rey gets a very similar arc in TFA, in large part because TFA is slavishly recreated from the DNA of A New Hope, due to Disney's desire to reboot the IP by evoking the Original Trilogy to wash away the prequel stank. Suddenly, a portion of the fanbase is feverishly incensed at the presence of this UNBEARABLE MARY SUE.
As I understand it, what incensed the fandom was things like a nobody scavenger girl magically knowing the workings of a ship better than two people who manned it for decades, expertly flying said ship despite clearly stating to have never done so before in her life, becoming a near-perfect shot with a blaster the second time she fires one, and effortlessly pulling Jedi tricks it took Luke two films to start pulling off despite not even knowing the Force was a thing until a couple of hours (days?) before.

I obviously don't know whether any of that is in the film, but if it is, it does seem to me worthy of some scrutiny. Because it's simply bad writing, particularly if several instances of it stack upon one another. And pointing out bad writing isn't really that good a reason to indict people's character in my book.

She was. And her writing was terrible. And people did hate the fact she was a 2nd female protagonist.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=star+wars+sjws&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7gNn5-KrYAhUBR2MKHaMPA50Q_AUICygC&biw=1440&bih=777

You don't have to look far, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJfTpAGXK0
Again, I'll take your word as far as the writing is concerned. But while I'm sure one could find people complaining about her if one went actively looking for them, once again, I haven't seen any in my habitual haunts, which should, I've been repeatedly informed, be a veritable breeding place for them.

It's not. Rogue One was AWFUL. And it got plenty of hate, from many of the same sources. It doesn't get nearly as much attention as TFA did because it wasn't the first film in a new trilogy, or the first Star Wars film to be released since the miserable prequels.
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Ogoid said:
If you say so. As I said, I find that the criticism of Rey is based on real writing concerns, and therefore should merit at the very least some consideration, as opposed to instant dismissal based on what amounts to no more than an incredibly uncharitable assumption of not only the motives but the very moral fiber of the people making it.
There is plenty of criticism of Rey. Some based on real writing concerns, some based on a perceived hysteria about "Cultural Marxism" destroying Star Wars by pandering to minorities and women. Did you watch the YouTube video I posted for you? Would it be an insult or a smear against the moral fiber of the speaker if I were to suggest he belongs to the latter camp?

Ogoid said:
Ackchyually, the whole Mary Sue phenomenon began, as I think someone already pointed out in this topic, with Star Trek fandom and fanfiction - which was largely female, by the way - which tended to produce not only characters who were instantly better than everyone else at everything they tried with no training or experience required, but who also were instantly liked by every canonic character besides being rather blatant authorial self inserts.
None of which makes her a Mary Sue.

Ogoid said:
As I understand it, what incensed the fandom was things like a nobody scavenger girl magically knowing the workings of a ship better than two people who manned it for decades, expertly flying said ship despite clearly stating to have never done so before in her life, becoming a near-perfect shot with a blaster the second time she fires one, and effortlessly pulling Jedi tricks it took Luke two films to start pulling off despite not even knowing the Force was a thing until a couple of hours (days?) before.
As discussed at length with the fandom, none of those exaggerated statements are true.

1. She worked on the ship for years. Her boss owned it.
2. She'd flown before. How do we know this? She tells us. This is exactly the same way we found out Luke and Poe had flown before. They told us.
3. The Falcon had been retrofitted by Unkar Plutt. Han hadn't been onboard her for many years. Rey was more familiar with those retrofits than Han, as he was completely unaware of them.
4. She shoots a few Stormtroopers, much as Luke does in A New Hope, despite never having used one before. When faced with Kylo Ren, he easily overcomes her and disarms her. Overcoming a few Stormtroopers is not an act of extreme competence in common Star Wars parlance. Small Teddy Bears do it en masse in the third film.
5. She pulls off one Jedi trick after multiple attempts (influencing a weak mind).

I mean I could go on and on. They're all feeble arguments and nit pickery, and almost blow for blow they are rehashing Luke's similar exploits in A New Hope because she's a Luke stand in. Is fairy tale Heroes Journey in space with magic "strong writing"? Of course not. If people want to take it to task because they're not watching Blade Runner, they are welcome to do so. What gets a little bemusing is when ardent fans of the OT (or, god forbid, the PREQUELS) attempt to construct an argument that the writing for and presentation of Rey in TFA is somehow uniquely bad, or unusual for the series. And when it is CONSTANTLY framed in terms of her gender (it's all girl power/Disney pandering), it's not hard to perceive as being motivated by something other than a dislike for cornball characterization in space adventures. You can whinge about people's "moral fiber" being impugned all you like, but this shit is not particularly hard to spot.

Ogoid said:
I obviously don't know whether any of that is in the film, but if it is, it does seem to me worthy of some scrutiny. Because it's simply bad writing, particularly if several instances of it stack upon one another. And pointing out bad writing isn't really that good a reason to indict people's character in my book.
It's in the film as I just described it to you. In A New Hope, Luke is blocking laser bolts while blindfolded hours after picking up a Lightsaber for the first time. Swinging across gorges and bullseyeing Storm Troopers mere moments after that, and is the best pilot in the entire Rebellion shortly after THAT. Despite being a whiny farm boy whose sole contribution to existence previously was bullseyeing womp rats and moaning about power converters. Is that silly? Yes. Is it "bad writing" as compared to actually well written films? God yes. Did anyone care? No. It was a space fantasy movie inspired by Flash Gordon. It was supposed to be light hearted and cheesy. Why only now do we suddenly care about verisimilitude in Star Wars? Why is it all specifically levied at this one character?

Ogoid said:
Again, I'll take your word as far as the writing is concerned. But while I'm sure one could find people complaining about her if one went actively looking for them, once again, I haven't seen any in my habitual haunts, which should, I've been repeatedly informed, be a veritable breeding place for them.
You don't have to look hard. I googled "Star Wars" and "SJW" and there's pages and pages of it. If you haven't seen any, that might have something to do with you not looking/not caring about the subject. The video I sent you was from Rebel Media. Other "Goober Gators" were quite excited to share Rebel Media links with us back in the day, as they were often busying themselves screeching at feminists and sneering at liberals and that was like fucking catnip for the right audience.

Ogoid said:
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.
The volume of criticism rises and falls with the popularity and scope of the thing being criticized. This is hardly a startling revelation, Ogoid.
 

runic knight

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General opinion of the film? It was entertaining but full of problems.

While the humor mostly lands, the characters are likeable enough (most of them, anyways), and the action entertaining enough to keep me interested, the movie had terrible writing, plenty of lore and universe problems, and countless plotholes that just took me out of the movie constantly and made what seemed to be a simple enjoyable film into a frustrating one. I'd say if you want to see it, wait til it is on tv or netflix.

And, only warning, spoilers abound after this point.

First, while the humor largely worked, there seemed to be too much of it and too often in ways that hurt the tone of the time. For every time it worked to help show characterization and warmth, there was one that fell flat or undermined the tone. Something good would be luke's meeting with R2 ending with R2 showing the original "help me, obiwon" clip only to be met with a "that was a low blow" style quip from luke at R2's attempt to persuade him to join back up. It showed their friendship and the heart of the old farmboy was still there under the grumpy demeanor. Compare that to the visual gag in the casino of a CGI alien "opera singer" mugging for the camera like they were in a 90's era direct to video sequel. Or the tonal whiplash of the opening scene with poe prank calling the first order as his friends and comrades try to flee for their lives. I liked that they remembered to have fun, as the prequels seemed to largely forget that, but they overdid it and often it failed as much as landed.

Next, they squander every plot setup they made before. Snoke's point/purpose/history? Gone. Rey's parents? Pointless. Why did luke make the map? IDK. The scene where he first gets the lightsaber back defines this problem. He tosses it behind him like it is shit. Rejection of the entire point of the first film in spirit and visual. Not even a solemn dropping of it and going "no, i can't anymore", just a strait up joke out of denying the potential of the previous film. Complete with forced insertion of the toy mascots playing with it.

Thirdly, while the characters were likeable enough, there were many who had problems, or were unsalvageable.

Lets start with the worst. Hodor was just bad. I think they were going for some sort of angry police chief to poe's doesn't-play-by-the-rules cop, but in the situation they were in she instead came off as entirely incompetent, if not outright traitorous. She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar. She refused to tell anyone she had a plan at all (as people siding with poe demonstrates). She is the ENTIRE reason for the rose/finn subplot, and the subsequent death of nearly all the resistance ships that resulted in. Her death was the loss of a character no one cared about prior to the movie but treated as something people should care about. And her method of self sacrifice left still had me pointing out how badly she failed as a leader. While some would argue that warp-speed into a dreadnaught shouldn't work that way, what I was wondering was why they didn't try that with every other large ship prior, instead of sacrificing them like they had. If her ship alone caused so much damage, having the medical frigate or others do it as well, even if only half the damage, it would have devastated the first order or even killed the head of the snake. Hell, you could have given characters like Ackbar a worthwhile sendoff as being a hero who was once a slave driving the ship right into their faces instead of unceremoniously blasted into space for the sole reason of showing off leia's superman pose.

On to the next new major character, Rose. She was ok, funny introduction, but it always felt like her sister should have been the character that had that role, not her. That might have been part of the point, but she felt out of place, like a tag-along. Even the stuff in the casino, with the decryptor, and so on had me feeling that way. The saving of flinn was odd as well, and the romance angle felt super forced. Still, I don't hate her character nor do I think they were central point in a long series of character and plot problems like hodor.

To the main characters, they largely remained consistent and enjoyable. Poe was, well, poe. Even though the joking at the intro of the move felt like bad juxtaposition with the tone of the rebels fleeing, it did feel right that his character would be the one to do that, and he remained consistently enjoyable even through the forced "lesson" about brashness. The character growth was poorly handled but that is about the worst there.

With Flinn, he went from concern about his friend, to joining the rebellion. And he beat the chrome trooper. Both of which would have been more impressive if they had been set up better, but still not bad and he was an enjoyable character to watch.

Phasma. Wasted, again. My biggest complaint about her in the previous movie was that it should have been her, not a nameless trooper, that called flinn a traitor and fought him. As if hearing my complaints, this movie does just that. And then as per norm, seems to mess it up as they try to double-down on the vibro axes, and half the screen-time and point. Disappointing, but I hope they bring her back again.

Rey. Still a mary sue. She instantly gets luke's first lesson which he himself didn't for a long time. She masters the lightsaber enough to fight multiple red guards. Her previous points of being a mary sue were still in effect as well. Enjoyable enough to watch, but it gets annoying.

Kilo. He wears his pants too high and it is weird and distracting. Otherwise, a good capture of a character conflicted every which way, still a child in mind, still seeking approval, still unsure and emotional.

Snoke. Hugh Hefner gold robe and wasted potential. Also pretty damn dumb, though it was so telegraphed that in a better written movie, it could have been a great ploy to get himself killed just so he too could be "more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

Luke. Seemed the character was changed into someone who went from being unable to deny the light in a seemingly irredeemable man who murdered countless, into one who tried to murder his nephew at the first hint of darkness. Also the blue milk thing... just why?

Leia. I get people wanted to see her use force powers, but superman still wants his green-screen back. Could just have shown the bridge damaged and she use her power to lift wreckage out of the way.

But that ties into the last point. The CGI. Too much of the film looked bad for it. Be it the plastic Porg-roast chewie had, the dog-horses at the casino, or the very fake looking effects around the characters in many scenes, the visuals felt like a step down. Even things that were animatronics, such as the crystal foxes, looked fake because of the bckgrounds.

...That was longer than I expected.
 

BloatedGuppy

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undeadsuitor said:
Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl
The volume of the screeching is because she's a girl. It's not like there's nothing wrong with the character. Other than Kylo Ren, it's hard to think of a character from the new films that merits much praise. She has some basic character texturing...she's pugnacious and earnest and eager for praise...but in terms of having a coherent arc she's all over the place. Much like Finn and Poe, she spent almost the entirety of TLJ spinning her tires.

But I mean, this is the Star Wars fandom we're talking about. There would be screeching about Dexter Jettster if anyone could remember his fucking name.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Ogoid said:
But it was a prequel to the original trilogy. It seems to me if the complaints of these alleged woman-hating purists boiled down to "vagina", the criticism for both character and film should be at least on par with TFA and/or TLJ, seeing how it makes a woman responsible for setting the whole plot of A New Hope in motion; yet whenever I do hear of it, opinions tend to go from indifferent to positive.

runic knight said:
She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar
Ackbar's actor was actually one of the casualties of 2016. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Bauersfeld]
 

sneakypenguin

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It was so good, but then it was also sooo bad. It was fun and I enjoyed it, but walking back to the car I was like hmmm that scene didn't quite make sense, why is this character like that... until by the time I got home I had a whole list of things that were wrong with it. I know star wars has always been scifi fantasy ... but... it seemed to just ignore its established universe and basic logic though.

After the spectacle and nice shots were over and all thats left is your memories of the story and scenes it just fking implodes.
 

runic knight

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undeadsuitor said:
Honestly it's pretty obvious all this screeching about rey that's been going on since force awakens is because she's a girl
Yeah, that is why characters like Mara Jade and Jaina Solo are fan favorites of the same nerds who are complaining about rey and the movie today. Not because she was poorly written, poorly implemented, a blatant marry sue, and was harbinger of the death of beloved characters in the franchise, nope, just a pair of ovaries...

Because if it wasnt, people would be making a similar big deal about an imperial janitor who doesn't have force powers wielding a lightsaber with no training into battle twice. Using it effectively both times.

And fighting a trained sith, with no force powers, and not instantly dying

A janitor with no fighting experience or force powers who went AWOL on his first mission used a lightsaber for longer and more effectively than an untrained jedi

But she's the overpowered one
Wait, you mean Finn? The guy who was said to be exceptionally martially skilled during the Force Awakens and was kept out of fights because of his mental problems with the sort of scum and villainy the imperials did? Hell, I am pretty sure they even lampshaded why they kept him around in the movies by specifically mentioning that he was really skilled, just was a bit of a wuss. He was considered one of the best stormtroopers of his unit even. Hell, Phasma (a character everyone says was wasted, rather odd if people didn't like characters because they were girls) specifically kept note on him because of his exceptional skill.

You are trying to compare Rey's Mary Sue bullshit with him being able to survive using a lightsaber (First order being the group they are, him being trained in combat with and against one being very reasonable to assume)?

Rey lived in middle of no where, no training, no experience. She was able to excel in using the force, fly han's ship better than he could, out-fight a trained sith, and was beloved or wanted by everyone who met her all in the duration of what, hours?. Were this a written fanfic instead of an acted one, she would be called a self-insert mary sue without complaint. Comparing all that to an established exceptionally trained trooper as a counter point is laughable. Finn might not be the best written character (can be a bit one-note in the first film), but comparing that to rey only works as a point of example of how badly her character was written.

bastardofmelbourne said:
runic knight said:
She was a new characters shoved into the picture after unceremonious removal of fan favorites like Ackbar
Ackbar's actor was actually one of the casualties of 2016. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Bauersfeld]
This makes me sad. Still, even something like a quiet and wordless salute as he drove a medial frigate into the first Order's face would have been better than random explosion killing him and jettisoning his corpse into space like trash.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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inu-kun said:
altnameJag said:
inu-kun said:
But being a janitor doesn't make you adept at signal processing so it's still dumb. Fat asian lady being a technician raises a question of why did they give a job with potential violent outcomes to a single none-fit person who might be knowlegable enough to help the situation rather than give it to the pilots or regular disciplinary officers who don't have anything to do right now. It's bad writing of jamming two characters together despite the location makes no sense.
Granted if I think the Resistance is made of morons it makes perfect sense.
...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.
1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.
1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.
 

Chessrook44

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I saw this movie last night and, quite frankly, I hated it. It was a bad movie. MaRey Sue was as horrible as ever, Rose quickly became a second hated character, Luke and Yoda seemed a bit our of character, at least two characters I can't even remember the name of, and frankly...

Well, the best thing I can say is that at least they learned from Force Awakens. They did a SLIGHTLY better job disguising that this was effectively a shitty Empire Strikes Back rehash. Just move the Battle of Not Hoth to the END instead of the start, and stick a bit of Return of the Jedi in the middle, and nobody will notice a thing! Good job, top notch.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Chessrook44 said:
I saw this movie last night and, quite frankly, I hated it. It was a bad movie. MaRey Sue was as horrible as ever, Rose quickly became a second hated character, Luke and Yoda seemed a bit our of character, at least two characters I can't even remember the name of, and frankly...

Well, the best thing I can say is that at least they learned from Force Awakens. They did a SLIGHTLY better job disguising that this was effectively a shitty Empire Strikes Back rehash. Just move the Battle of Not Hoth to the END instead of the start, and stick a bit of Return of the Jedi in the middle, and nobody will notice a thing! Good job, top notch.
MaRey Sue wasn't as horrible as ever: she was even more horrible here. She was already overpowered in TFA, but here she's relegated to a completely reactive protagonist for most of the movie. And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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bartholen said:
And yeah, this being still so much a rehash (right down to the red armored guards in the throne room!) after the kicking TFA rightly got for that just goes to show what state of creative bankruptcy this property is.
In what way is TLJ a rehash exactly? One of the chief praises/criticisms (depending on the view of the person speaking) is that it breaks a lot from the conventional Star Wars mould and only very superficially resembles ESB (the rebels are on the run, the jedi goes looking for a mentor). It keeps a bunch of things as throwbacks to ESB, like a fight between walkers and guys in trenches on a white planet, but the narrative structure is entirely different and the beats are not even in the same realm.

Just to highlight the most obvious: In ESB Luke leaves Yoda despite not having finished his training, in TLJ Rey leaves Luke because he's unwilling and unable to teach her more then he has. There's literally no plot line in TLJ similar to the Bespin plot and ESB has nothing like the Star Destroyer heist. You can accuse TLJ of a lot of things and disliking it is fine (as the Film Crit Hulk claimed that Tarantino once told him: Never hate a movie), but getting too grandiose in your criticism or criticizing things which aren't even there just makes you look like someone crazy or someone with an agenda.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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inu-kun said:
altnameJag said:
inu-kun said:
altnameJag said:
inu-kun said:
But being a janitor doesn't make you adept at signal processing so it's still dumb. Fat asian lady being a technician raises a question of why did they give a job with potential violent outcomes to a single none-fit person who might be knowlegable enough to help the situation rather than give it to the pilots or regular disciplinary officers who don't have anything to do right now. It's bad writing of jamming two characters together despite the location makes no sense.
Granted if I think the Resistance is made of morons it makes perfect sense.
...couple things:
1)Rose is a Starship mechanic, not a freaking plumber.
2)Rose is a member of the Resistance, a covert military operation previously funded in secret by the New Republic. It's safe to assume broad competence with combat operations.
3)If you think Rose is too fat to be "not fit", I've got some athletes to introduce you too. Or most athletes, come to think of it.
1) I was referring to Finn in the first sentence, not Rose. 2) No it's not, people usually specialize in fields rather than know everything. 3) ...Definitely not "most athletes". She is short and stocky and with her being an engineer, I doubt her uniform covers pure muscle.
1)Knowing what a section of a starship is is good info for having to clean/maintain it. Besides, tech in Star Wars is ludicrously hyper-tech. And knowing that primary systems tend to have dedicated power circuitry in the organization you belong to seems like something everybody on board a military vessel should know. For damage control, at the very least. 2)Military organizations tend to make sure their support staff knows their way around a gun and gets basic combat training. That's normal military, much less secretly funded guerrilla military. 3)Fuck, you don't know many cops. Or military. Or athletes. But you're right, she's short and stocky and that obviously means she's too much of a fatty to operate a stunner or put someone in a headlock.
1) But it's not that Finn knew that a place in the ship exists but rather what its the purpose which is far above being a simple janitor and knowing actual circutry is ridiculous for janitors. At best he'll know a circuit breaker for an entire area. Hell, considering the monolithic size of ships, him being asigned the very specific area in the ship is already far fetched. 2) Knowing your way around a gun is entirely different from being able to be in combat (especially close quarters combet which is what would have been the case for people running away). 3) As someone who was in the military that's not the case. Even disregarding her weight, simply her being short is already a massive disadvantage if she is attacked from close by.
1) Nobody said he was a "simple janitor". Self-deprecating humor shouldn't be taken literally.
2) Obviously she can handle it, given she'd done it before.
3) They're resistance fighters trying to shamefully run away, not commandos trying to kill the starship mechanic. Kelly Marie Tran weighs less than 125 lbs. Is that what counts as "too fat to be believable" in your world? Really? According to the hilariously simplified standard of the BMI scale, she's got a BMI in the low 20's. A.k.a: This is what normal people look like. Shame you're so stuck in "Hollywood pretty" to recognize it.

'Course, this is also the first time I've heard that short and stocky is a disadvantage in a fight. Outside of competitive sport fighting anyway. And still irrelevant when she's armed with a stun gun.