A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[intheweeds]

As to all the calls of rapist at the guy, does she consider it to be sexual assault afterwards? If she didn't, is he still a rapist by Canadian law?

In that case you label all men who has had intercourse with intoxicated women as rapists. And this seems bizarre.

He seems like a douche of a high caliber, but rapist is a serious charge.

I'm not trying to call him a rapist. I want to know what you think about him. Personally, having been in that situation before, would feel to myself inside like i was. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, its just how i feel. I'm asking your opinion is all.

 

[Zeekar]

So... what? All men are evil and should be castrated at birth?

One of the other points of the phrase "all men are potential rapists" is that our society has built the fiction that the rapist is a scary man you'll jump you from the bushes...but the majority of rapes are not the scary sex offender down the street...or the guy with the 70s mustache...but probably someone you know and assume is a good guy.

Inflammatory statements such as that make sense in some circumstances -- to underline the severity of the situation, using exaggerated statements will bring a more violent response which can be seen by more people.

In this case, I don't see the necessity. The language is extraordinarily misleading and plays to a known stereotype. Pitting two factions (male and female) against one another in order to help quell a serious issue between them is hardly logical.

TL;DR: Find a better way to say "All men are potential rapists". Because it evokes a knee-jerk reaction for it's egregious inaccuracy.

But it isn't inaccurate.
The phrase isn't "All Men are Rapists"--which would be not only inaccurate, but also a lie and slanderous.
But "All Men are Potential Rapists"--which is true. You can't tell a rapist by looking at him.
Also 98% of all sexual assaults are committed by men.

Now let's get a specific example. Let's say you have a daughter. She's 17 and she's going to go on her first date with a nice rich, handsome football hero--or computer nerd--or whatever. Are you going to give your daughter no advice to be careful because you don't want to impugn the feelings of the guy she's going to date by implying that the possibility exists that he could potentially rape her? I'm going to give her all sorts of advice in order to help keep her safe. If they guy turns out to be a good guy, then everything is good. If he turns out to be a rapist and I didn't give her any advice on how to protect herself just in case--because I didn't want to hurt his feelings? Then I'd have a hard time living with myself.

But it is inaccurate.

If the statement only implied that you can't judge a book by it's cover, there would be no issue. Taken at face value "All men are potential rapists" can mean that any man can be driven to rape. I would never want to teach my hypothetical child that lesson.

Perhaps you don't see it, but it is still an obvious interpretation of the phrase -- hence all the outrage (no one would care if it was obviously innocuous). Using it, then is knowingly misleading.

I'm saying that there must be a less inflammatory way to get the point across. I'm certainly not suggesting we say nothing to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Edit: Sorry if this sounds condescending, but using numbers in an argument is a very bad idea, especially if you're not citing sources.

Where did you get 98%? Is that 98% of all reported sexual assaults? I assure you, a disturbing amount go unreported, and they aren't all male assaults. Are the sampled assaults all verified? Many reported assaults are exaggerated or outright fabrications.

All those variables could change that number significantly, so where did you get it? Context is often more important than numbers, because numbers can be manipulated by those with a motive.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I read a few of the comments here, both were drunk, both made bad choices. Why is it the guy getting the blame and demonised while the girl isnt? She was in a relationship and she was also drunk, she could have stopped it. Could have not gotten drunk in the first place? Why is a drunk guy considered evil and being drunk is no reason for how he acted? But a drunk woman is blameless? Thats stupid. They both were retarded and acted with out thinking at the moment. He didnt drag her into an alley an rape her. It was concential, as much as it can be between 2 drunk people. Now if he was sober and she was drunk....then yes i would join in with demonising him as he would be in the wrong. But from what i read of the story, they are both fucking stupid and i hope they have learnt a lesson from it.

 

[VulakAerr]

5. Definitely. Both are equally to blame. It sounds like if the people were the same but their genders reversed, the exact same thing would happen. Both are using alcohol is an excuse in their own way and it excuses them an equal amount (zero in my opinion). If one of them were sober, that's another story, but this way, it's just two drunken idiots making an idiotic drunken mistake.

If it were me though, I'd spend my efforts trying to work out how you can learn to trust her again.

 

[Zeriah]

If the guy was also an 8-9 out of 10 on the drunk scale and was barely aware of the specifics (8-9 on the drunk scale will likely mean that the knowledge of her having a partner and not having a condom is just as absent as it was for the girl) then I think they are both equally responsible for their poor choices. Nobody should look at the guy in any larger negative light than the girl. I'd give him a 5/10 if he had remorse after the fact. Basically if this guy was my buddy it would not hurt our friendship (though it might if I knew the girl). If your friend wasn't seeing anybody I'd have given him a 2. This kind of thing is called a one night stand and happens countless time every night, it's not exactly smart behavior because of the risk of doing something really stupid and not caring because you're too drunk (i.e. cheating and not using a condom) but that is your own fault for having too much alcohol. The vast majority of them however end fine and both parties are usually quite satisfied.

However If you know for a 100% positive that he was much lower on the drunk scale, was fully conscious of the fact that this girl had a partner and he had no condom and didn't care (i.e. would have done the same thing sober) then he is obviously a pathetic scumbag so I guess a 8-9? Only because the girl still gave her consent. I'd consider this situation pretty close to rape.

It's a prickly situation, for one I have nothing against "one night stands" per say (which usually occur when both parties are drunk), it's a pretty common thing, though I think the people who partake in them are pretty stupid and are taking a huge risk. However the situation becomes murkey when one of the parties is much less drunk and much more aware of the situation than the other. I see this happen sometimes and this kind behavior is pretty much universally despised. You know, when a guy just kind of cruises around preying on blind drunk girls. I have a big problem with this kind of stuff and if that is what you think happened then yeah, he's a scumbag. An even bigger scumbag since he knew she was seeing somebody.

 

[Wapox]

OP snip

I think, the guy is probably around a 6-8 although, he could be all the way to 10.
It is despicable to do such a thing to a heavily intoxicated person - Either gender.
I myself have experienced me to be around 1-4 on the scale that you made here. Changes a bit when intoxicated, but never to the worse part of the scale.. Comes with inhibitions I guess..

Hope things work out between you two, and I hope she never meets the guy again...

 

[ace_of_something]

Most men, in truth, would not act on this.

My question is why are you asking this very specific question? Did something like this happen to you or a friend?

 

[fenrizz]

First off I'm the type that has learned you NEVER give second chances to cheaters, so I'm not some "softy/forgive everything" type. With that in mind...

I notice you are in Toronto. Canadian law is EXTREMELY clear here, that man is guilty of sexual assault. Even if she actually said YES he is guilty of sexual assualt. Even if she came on to him first he is guilty of sexual assault. Even if he was also drunk, he is guilty of sexual assault.

Your gf was raped.

If she was as drunk as you say, she absolutely did nothing wrong and so on both a legal and moral basis he is a criminal ass and she is a victim.

You can't blame her for being raped, support her instead.

This is however a great lesson why no one should ever get so drunk/stoned that they are not in control. There are always assholes out there who will take advantage.

That is one of the most disturbing thing I have ever heard to be perfectly honest.

Conscentual sex between two intoxicated adults, and the man ends up a rapist by Canadian law?
That is truly sickening to hear.

That's not what he law says, nor was it what I said. The law is not gender specific in any way. In the situation desribed the man was the agressor and thus would be charged. If she had mounted the half unconcious man without him saying yes then she would be the one facing charges of sexual assault.

Much like a bar fight, it completely dependant on the facts in the specific case which person is charged. And just like a bar fight, its even possible for BOTH to be charged if the facts support it.

It's not rape just because the law says so, and certainly not between to people that are consenting.

Yes, actually it is. The law defines what is a crime and what is not.

He asked, she agreed and seemed into it.
She asked for condom, he said no but they had sex anyway.

She didn't agree, can't legally agree in any event, and "seemed into it" is not considered consent under Canadian lw.

Its actually not uncommon for a rape victim to ask the person to use a condom, may supply a condom, may even put on the condom, or even agree to a specific act if he will just wear a condom. This is her minimizing the impact of the rape and now that most of us are no longer in the dark ages it is not considered a sign of consent.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but that is what I thought you were saying when I read it.
Sounded like it was very gender specific, and that was the part I found repulsive.

The law is the law of course, but I still disagree that it is rape, even if the law says it is.

I'll just quote (and snip, if you don't mind the OP) on that last bit.

You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

Sounded to me like she consented.
Even if by Canadian law says she cannot.

 

[Ferrious]

I have every right to be angry. You have to appreciate if everyone did call rape, I would have felt worse because i am fucking pissed at her right now. How much of a dick am i to be so pissed at my raped g/f? The thought has crossed my mind. She did make the choice to get so hammered.

You are human and have been betrayed, you have a right to be angry and should not be ashamed that you feel it. You are also in love with her, and she needs the support that love brings. One of those feelings will outlast the other, it's really up to who you want to be as to which wins out.

 

[Herr Uhl]

As to all the calls of rapist at the guy, does she consider it to be sexual assault afterwards? If she didn't, is he still a rapist by Canadian law?

In that case you label all men who has had intercourse with intoxicated women as rapists. And this seems bizarre.

He seems like a douche of a high caliber, but rapist is a serious charge.

I'm not trying to call him a rapist. I want to know what you think about him. Personally, having been in that situation before, would feel to myself inside like i was. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, its just how i feel. I'm asking your opinion is all.

No, I'm not saying you are, but some seem pretty eager to label him as that. I've had drunken casual sex before, but it wasn't to the point of falling over and passing out with either of us, and we were courteous enough the morning after. I'm wondering if I am a rapist by Canadian law in this case.

It is someone he knows is in a relationship, I say he is a 7 for that, and having unprotected takes it up to an 8. I don't think he would have come on to her if she was completely passed out wasted.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

Speaking for myself, as a 29 year old guy:

Do I find it morally wrong? No. Two consenting adults can do whatever the hell they like. It might be stupid as all hell, but that's humans for you.

Do I find it any of them are bad humans for it? Nope. See above.

Would I do something like it myself? Hell if I know. Probably not. Depends on the situation. Depends on whether I knew her (and her partner). I have had a fling with a woman who was getting a divorce. Do I feel bad about it? No. I was single. She was not. But it's not my job to make moral choices for other people. If she gets drunk and wants to have sex then it's none of my business who she cheats on.

Do I consider myself a good guy. Yes. I just don't take responsibility for what other people do.

 

[Avalanche91]

were there 2 adults involved who both gave their ok at one point?

then its both their fault.

I'd say 6 points for both parties involved. I've heard worse.

 

[Jodah]

Eh, I wouldn't have gone that first step anyways. For one I'm not risking my future on some drunk chick not remembering and yelling rape the next morning. (I'm studying to be a lawyer so pretty much any record = I'm fucked)

Secondly I wouldn't take advantage of a woman like that anyways. Whenever my friends and I went out drinking 9 times out of 10 I was the "guardian angel" of the group. I could drink as much as any of them but I could also keep my head about me. I was the voice or reason when everyone else was fucking hammered. As such, whenever one of the ladies (or guys I suppose) got sick I would be the one to keep an eye on them to make sure they are "okay."

 

[GigaHz]

I'd say a 4 or 5.

But the bigger question is, why the hell is she allowing herself to get pissed drunk when she has a boyfriend around other men? Either she isn't too bright or she must not care a lot for the person she is with. Baring her being stupid, that makes her at least 90% responsible for her being in that situation in the first place.

Sure, the guy is definitely a douche for taking advantage of her vulnerability, but it takes two to tango. For this case, in more ways than one.

 

[Princess Rose]

If the statement only implied that you can't judge a book by it's cover, there would be no issue. Taken at face value "All men are potential rapists" can mean that any man can be driven to rape. I would never want to teach my hypothetical child that lesson.

Perhaps you don't see it, but it is still an obvious interpretation of the phrase -- hence all the outrage (no one would care if it was obviously innocuous). Using it, then is knowingly misleading.

I'm saying that there must be a less inflammatory way to get the point across. I'm certainly not suggesting we say nothing to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

I've been following your conversation with trooper6, and something occurred to me.

Everyone is a potential murder.

Anyone can, with the right stimulus, be driven to murder. It certainly takes more for one person than another, but in the right circumstances any person can kill another person. Even if they hate themselves afterwards, even if they didn't mean to, even if it drives them mad - everyone is a potential killer.

That makes me wonder... if anyone can kill, can anyone rape? Should we be saying that everyone, man or woman, is a potential rapist? Sure, men are more likely, but there's still 2% of rapists who are female. It's not possible to detect that 2% by looking at them anymore than it is the 98%.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe that - just that, having followed your conversation, this is where my head went.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. Hmm.

 

[Jeralt2100]

It's an unfortunate situation and I'm sorry that you're having to go through it. Having read all the replies in the thread I doubt I can offer any 'new' insight that hasn't already been given but I will outline the few bullet points that stand out to me.

1. Your gf obviously trusted this man enough to be 10 on a scale of 10 drunk with him, and at least in my experience it would take a great deal of trust to drink that much alone with anyone.

2. This guy knew she was in a committed relationship with you, and knew that under normal circumstances she'd never sleep with him.

3. He came on to her and she didn't stop him.

Now I realize that a large amount of alcohol was involved with both parties, and yes alcohol can cause men to do some pretty stupid things but in this case he took advantage of her.

A more important question to ask, and one you should ask him once you calm down enough to speak to him without killing him is: Does /he/ feel bad about this? If he does, genuinely, then while it was deplorable it's something you chalk up to too much booze imbibed by both of them.

If he /doesn't/ or you suspect he's not being truthful in telling you that he does, then he's a genuine scumbag. I don't agree with what happened in either case, I think both share some fault, but if he knowingly took advantage of an opportunity like that then he's a rapist. If he was so sloppy drunk he didn't know what he was doing and she didn't either, then it's an equal fault in my eyes. Not good, certainly something you NEVER want to happen, but those are just my thoughts.

 

[Zeekar]

Snip

First of all, drawing a gender line in the sand is unwise. There is no "men's opinion". We're all different just like girls are all different. That's not a situation I'd ever be in, so it's an irrelevant question to me.

That kind of act would hypothetically go against the grain of my moral code, but that's for judging myself, not others.

Secondly, the scale you're using is equally irrelevant, as the severity is determined by the VICTIM, not by passers-by. Ask the girl who was taken advantage of what it was on a scale of 1-10.

Maybe they're really into that, drunk or not. That variable could change everything.

I did ask her. We both know what 10 is for her. thats the answer she gave me.

Isn't that more useful information than what we think about it, then?

Since you're responding so quickly, I'm really curious: What have you gotten out of this so far? What do you take away from the response you have received? Hopefully that's clear. I'm not sure exactly how else to word it.

I just know I've had a lot of awesome men in my life and even they have warned me about men. You know when your best friend says things like " no you don't understand, men think differently, you have to be careful. I just want you to be safe", this is both something a good guy does, but to women you can never really know what that means. I've not had a negative experience personally with men until now and its not even directly. I mean i've seen men acting like pigs in bars and its gross and i've heard some of them say some gross things, but this is personal. Of course all men are different and so are all women, but certain views do seem to prevail more than others and I was curious about guys.

I have a better idea of the views of women on this subject and i guess i was just curious about hearing a random cross section of men's views on it, since i'm told by the men in my life that men think differently about sex. Honestly it makes me feel a lot better to hear many of the things that were said. I was never looking to hear a whole bunch of 'rape' calling.

I guess at first i wanted to hear the opinions of men because it happens to be a very touchy subject that i can't really stop thinking about right now. Now I'm actually really happy to hear that for the most part, men agree with me. She is terrible for getting into that position and i have every right to be angry. You have to appreciate if everyone did call rape, I would have felt worse because i am fucking pissed at her right now. How much of a dick am i to be so pissed at my raped g/f? The thought has crossed my mind. She did make the choice to get so hammered.

On the other hand I am right to think he is a disgusting pig and those disturbing thoughts of violence towards him is not unfounded. It would appear most men agree that although he is no rapist, he is most definitely a pig. Which is pretty much how i feel. It turns out we aren't so different emotionally on this subject.

Thank you for asking actually. An excellent question and one i'm glad i though about.

I'm glad you took the question as intended. I'm in no position to give advice, but if you're interested, I recommend a healthy dose of distance to allow yourself to recover emotionally. How things pan out from there are up to fate, god, chance or whatever you believe in.

Whatever conclusion you come to, however, please forgive. Holding a grudge, regardless of who it is against will only ever hurt you. I know it'll take time, but I hope you'll get there.

Good luck.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Here is the situation. First of all, notice that I am female so this is most definitely not me we are talking about and the situation didn't happen to me, but never the less affects me deeply. Anyway here is the scenario:

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?

I obviously don't understand male sexuality at all and in my eyes this is extremely disgusting. Like, devastatingly disgusting. I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left. She was so drunk and horny she was actually pissed at me at the time. But I couldn't have lived with myself the next day, I knew she would never have been there if she wasn't beyond capacity hammered.

What do you think?

Edit: She didn't come on to him, he came on to her and she didn't stop it or say no specifically. I hope that clears that up.

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior. In the example I gave of myself in the same situation, I was not only wasted, i was also (for better or worse) super high on coke (it was a long time ago). This means that, yes, she has some blame here for her own actions. She knows that and hates herself, but putting that aside, it's the guys side of this i'm interested in really just now.

Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

While I would reserve 10 for if he had violently forced her into it, I'd definitely say this guy was an 8 or 9 on the 1 to scumbag scale. Coming on to a girl he knows is in a committed relationship because he reckons she's so drunk he can get away with it, and then doesn't even use protection. Yeah, there aren't many ways that can get much lower.

My advice would be to give her another chance if you believe she is genuinely sorry and it will not happen again (this is me assuming that nothing like this has happened before). She does have to take a certain level of responsibility yes, but when you've been with someone as long as you've been with her it's not the sort of thing you just give up on after one drunken mistake. At most, I would say to her that you forgive her for what happened but if she wants you to keep trusting her she can't get that drunk again, ever.

As for the guy though, if I were you I'd go round his house right now and smash all his windows in with a baseball bat, and then smash him round the head with it if he dares to confront you. If you have already done this... go do it again. I don't think anyone would begrudge you making that guy's life hell for a long while yet. If you're feeling really vindictive, take it upon yourself to ruin every single relationship he tries to get himself into until he moves away from you so you never have to see his face again.

 

[intheweeds]

It's an unfortunate situation and I'm sorry that you're having to go through it. Having read all the replies in the thread I doubt I can offer any 'new' insight that hasn't already been given but I will outline the few bullet points that stand out to me.

1. Your gf obviously trusted this man enough to be 10 on a scale of 10 drunk with him, and at least in my experience it would take a great deal of trust to drink that much alone with anyone.

2. This guy knew she was in a committed relationship with you, and knew that under normal circumstances she'd never sleep with him.

3. He came on to her and she didn't stop him.

Now I realize that a large amount of alcohol was involved with both parties, and yes alcohol can cause men to do some pretty stupid things but in this case he took advantage of her.

A more important question to ask, and one you should ask him once you calm down enough to speak to him without killing him is: Does /he/ feel bad about this? If he does, genuinely, then while it was deplorable it's something you chalk up to too much booze imbibed by both of them.

If he /doesn't/ or you suspect he's not being truthful in telling you that he does, then he's a genuine scumbag. I don't agree with what happened in either case, I think both share some fault, but if he knowingly took advantage of an opportunity like that then he's a rapist. If he was so sloppy drunk he didn't know what he was doing and she didn't either, then it's an equal fault in my eyes. Not good, certainly something you NEVER want to happen, but those are just my thoughts.

I don't know him she's only met him twice before very briefly and he showed up after one in the morning when she was already hammered at a party way out of town at her work where she had already planned to stay and couldn't go home that night.