A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[kurupt87]

7 him.
8 her.

Edit: She's more in the wrong because she's the one in the relationship. The guy is not responsible for her relationship, she is.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I'm not going to do that. I'm going to tell you what I tell everyone who informs me that they've been cheated on. I'll give it to you logically, then you can decide what to do.
I think you need to kick this chick to the curb.

After four years of being together? With nary a single instance of cheating beforehand?

For a start, 'cheating' to me implies a decision to betray somebody. This 'chick' sounds like she was not in a state to intentionally do anything at all, even protest at what was going on. The fact that she was honest about what happened and sounds upset by it seems to indicate that her loyalties are in the right place when she's sober.
Secondly; a lot of people find it easier to forgive and ultimately resume trusting somebody than you seem to be able to. Humans are fallible. If you expect a partner to be inhumanly loyal, even when in an altered mental state, then you are probably expecting too much.

A reasonable expectation would be that the girl would not get in such a bad state again, or at least not in the company of people that are likely to take advantage.

 

[INF1NIT3 D00M]

This conversation you guys are having made me think of something i said a few pages back. See this is what confuses me about this situation:

I have some wonderful men in my life of all ages who i love and trust. Some of them have warned me to be careful around men. More than one has told me "men think differently when it comes to sex, you can't trust them", during a conversation about how i should be careful. I don't want to paint men with any kind of brush, but what is a woman supposed to think when she is being told by trusted men that men cannot be trusted when it comes to sex? Obviously not all men are pigs, I'm being told these things by men i love and trust and who have my best interests at heart? A few of which I have had sex with and are very definitely not pigs? Paradox anyone?

So should i not be worried about men and sex?

My last post was far more confrontational than I intend this one to be. You can trust men, but you can't trust all men. In the same way that you can trust women, but you can't trust all women. Men are told all the time that they are the best, whether they realize it or not, and as a general rule the social pressure is to sow your wild oats as much as possible with anyone you can get your hands on. Some guys resist these pressures, become great people and live normal lives. Others spend their time searching for any female genetalia they can find, inserting their seed and vanishing once they've accomplished their goal. These men are sometimes crude but often appear by all counts to be normal, even charming men. There are small signs, but basically dating men is a crapshoot, from what I've seen. I've also seen good men, my friends who have been there for me through everything, my blood brothers, make stupid, horrible decisions that hurt the women they come into contact with. When they tell you to be worried about men, to always view them critically, to be very careful around them, that's why.
It's similar to the way women feel pressure to be thin and wear makeup and frilly dresses. Men feel pressures that tell them they need to be as much like casanova as possible, to never wear dresses or makeup, and that women are there solely to have sex with and make sandwiches. Not all men believe such things, in the way not all women believe everything society tells them. However, good men are fewer in number and are hard to discern from bad men. And that's just giving people binary morality. Many "good men" make bad decisions, and even "bad men" have the potential to be great significant others. Ask a man, and he'll hedge his bets. If he tells you that men are great and you get taken advantage of, it's on him for "lying" to you. If he tells you men are terrible and evil, the worst he'll get is "Men aren't bad, sillyhead! This guy is great, see?" and he can say "Oh yeah, he sure proves me wrong! Your boyfriend is great!". He wins there, because he answered your question and he also doesn't get blamed if he's wrong. He doesn't even get blamed if he's right. So I'll end this by telling you that you should keep an eye on any man you date, because there is a chance that he'll hurt you.

 

[Eternal_Lament]

I'd give both the guy and girl a 5 out of 10 for douchiness/scumbagness. They're both drunk, so one isn't really taking advantage of the other, therefore neither is creepy but both are bad. Actually the fact they are drunk lowers the score for me, because arguably "their reasoning is hindered", although they're both idiots for getting that drunk. Had they both been sober then they'd both get 7's in my opinion, because they girl is knowingly cheating on you and the guy knows that he's sleeping with his friend's girlfriend. Then of course if only one was drunk then the sober person is like a 9 or 10 (regardless of gender)

As it stands though they both get 5's, which I guess means "50 points from Gryffindor"

 

[The Gnome King]

Neither party is particularly classy in that situation, the fault lies squarely with both of them.

This.

Also, all men are different; just as all women are different.

I once knew a woman who got my former roommate very drunk, on purpose, and proceeded to grind on top of him knowing full well that a) he had a girlfriend and b) he wasn't interested in her. He told her "no" several times, she took off her panties and continued to try and have her way with him WHILE HE WAS PASSED OUT.

Because she was a woman, of course we have the double standard here that what she did wasn't "rape" even though nobody would have a problem calling it rape if the genders were reversed.

I wouldn't exactly hold her out to be an expert on female sexuality, however - she was just a woman who wanted to get with this guy and wasn't going to take "no" for an answer.

Luckily, there were others around in the house that walked in on this and stopped anything from happening before she could rip the guy's pants off and try to see if she could achieve penetration with his drunk body. (It is possible sometimes, especially when a person is in a 'blackout' stage.)

Moral of the story - it's not classy, it's not right, gender doesn't really matter here one way or the other. It's not a "men's" issue or a "woman's" issue - both males and females can be downright single minded when they're drunk and they want sex.

Personally? I don't get drunk with people I don't trust; period. Saves me a lot of problems all 'round. I wouldn't entertain a female OR a male (I'm a bisexual man) that I didn't trust 100% alone and get drunk with them especially if I had an inkling that they were trying to get in my pants; unless I wanted the situation to happen.

Then again, I'm an adult and I take responsibility for my own actions - including the situations I put myself in.

 

[Princess Rose]

I do have to say, it's nice to find a women in a thread like this who isn't accusing the man of first class statutory rape or something.

Mmm... he comes close, but the way the story is described, I just don't see it. He asked. He actually said "can I do this?" and she said, with actual words, "yes you can".

To me, that says she wasn't actually at 10 on the drunk scale. I've seen people that drunk - they generally can't speak in actual words anymore.

I dunno... this whole situations sounds really shitty and fucked up. I'm not willing to call it all the guy's fault. I think he's probably a scumbag, but not necessary worse than that. As to the woman, she doesn't seem to feel she was raped, harmed, or taken advantage of. Again, from her partner's reports, she seems to regret it, but consider it consensual. For that matter, she seems to remember consenting, even if she regrets doing so now.

Which, again, makes me wonder if she was really at 10 on the drunk scale. Typically, you can't remember much when you're that drunk.

I MIGHT have wrong info here. Not sure. But from what I can tell, it seems more like betrayal and regrets, mixed with a healthy dose of stupidity and recriminations.

Part of the reason I feel that way is that the guy wasn't involved in getting her drunk. He didn't attempt to manipulate her. He said "may I?" That... says a lot to me. It tells me that there was no intent. He may have taken advantage of a situation, but he didn't try to set it up, and he didn't force it.

This is a VERY gray area. A word, one way or the other, could probably tip my opinion. Right now, it doesn't seem like rape to me - it seems like two people doing something VERY stupid together. But again, I'm working with a text description on the internet. I didn't see it, so I can't really be sure of what happened.

 

[The Gnome King]

Coming onto someone and consenting is her own fault, no matter how drunk she is. If she knew she would get like that around someone while drunk, she should have restricted her drinking to only with her partner.

I agree with you that she should have restricted her drinking, but I never said she came on to him, in fact he came on to her and she didn't explicitly say no or try to stop it other than ask if he had a condom. I don't know how forceful the situation was beyond that. Does that change anything about your opinion?

It boils down to this:

Did she ever once say "No?" - if she didn't, it wasn't rape.

If she did, and he forced himself on her, it was rape.

It sounds like you weren't there, so it's doubtful you'll ever know the specifics; just what she is telling you.

(Granted, even if it wasn't rape, it sounds like it was pretty tacky behavior on both of their parts. I wouldn't trust either of them, personally.)

As far as asking about a condom, that's a non-issue. She might have asked but just because I ask somebody if they have a condom doesn't mean the same thing as if I say, "You cannot have sex with me without a condom." Just asking somebody if they have one is like me asking a girl if she's on the pill or not - if she doesn't answer and I go ahead and have sex with her anyway, that's my own damned fault for not making an issue of it if she gets pregnant.

 

[Coldflame727]

I would like to point out, everyone is going to be bitching about how wrong it is, but get them drunk in a room with a hot guy/girl and something (You know what) will happen. I disagree with taking advantage of drunk people, but drunk or not, each person has some control over themselves, correct? The only time I can think of is if they are unconscious, and we can obviously figure out if having sex with a sleeping person is wrong. (It is)
To summarize; Each of them are in the wrong, and each of them could have stopped it.

 

[Princess Rose]

I think you misunderstand me. I was emphasising the point that it's a silly double standard.

The balance of men and women who place more importance on the emotional aspect of sex is probably still tipped to the female side. But it's not true to say that all men feel less of an attachment after sex and all women expect commitment.

Personally, I make it a point that every sexual partner I have understands that I don't want anything else from it. And I mean every sexual partner. To me, sex is just sex and I make sure anyone I sleep with understands that. If they then get hurt that I don't see them again, what else could I have done?

Are you suggesting that all men abstain from care free sexual intercourse for fear of hurting someones feelings?

A person who lies to a woman and tells them they're in love simply to bed them, yea, that's wrong. But two people seeking out nothing but sexual gratification for one night. How is that risking the womans feelings?

Equally, women can seduce men who're looking for more and then never commit.

It is a two way street. We just have certain expectations of gender roles in this scenario.

^^ You once again make a fine point.

I've had plenty of causal sex with guys without ever wanting or expecting a commitment. In fact, since I'm married (and in an open relationship), pretty much everyone I sleep with other than my spouse is casual and commitment-less.

Meanwhile, even knowing that I'm already married, I've had guys tell me that they've fallen in love with me, even though that was strictly off the table at the beginning of the relationship. It sucks for those guys, but it's their problem - they went into it with their eyes open, and I never lied about what I wanted or was willing to give.

So yeah... not just a male's being jerks to females thing.

Of course, it IS way more common the other way around. But yeah, in this day and age, certainly not an exclusive problem.

 

[somonels]

Men bad thread.
Seven to the behavior of the woman.
Six to the behavior of the man.

She: allowed the approach and fondling, asked about a condom, allowed the deed.
He: saw an opportunity and used it without any appliance of force. His actions were criminal and it's up to a judge or jury to convict him and appoint the proper punishment.

Bring the flak but keep it short and sharp.

 

[intheweeds]

I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left.
Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

Wow....begging for it?..idk what to say...1 break it off with her she clearly cant handle being alone and in a relationship 2 that guy is a 8-10 easy...thats fucked up...3 knock him out....pretty much sums up your next 3 steps in life. Good luck and I hope that never happens to you again man...it blows

I think a lot of people can attest to the fact that a woman can be very different when she gets drunk when it comes to this kind of thing. If a woman is so drunk that she is dancing on tables and taking her clothes off, etc. It means she is stupid drunk. It doesn't mean she is fair game because she looks like she wants it is all i was saying. Its actually not that uncommon a scenario for a girl to be overly sexual when she gets overly drunk.

I... wholly disagree. So she gets a pass because she gets overly sexual when she's overly drunk but he doesn't because he's overly sexual when overly drunk? Hell, I've hit on girls I had no interest on while drunk and felt dirty and awful in the morning, too.

I wasn't going to engage because I hate this place's "self help" side, but your predicament sounds interesting because it's kind of unusual, so here's my take.

Getting drunk makes you do things you wouldn't normally do, but it doesn't make you things you don't want to do. You may regret them because of a lack of inhibition. You want the sex but not the part where you jeopardize your ongoing relationship, so you don't normally do that while sober.

Male or female, you may want to wonder if you like the notion of inhibition holding a relationship together.

As for the guy's behaviour, it's impossible to judge it from the info you give us. Like I said, I have felt like crap after stuff like that at times, but I also know people with no qualms at all.

Oh, and you mention joking about it afterwards. Yeah, that's a male thing. It doesn't mean much by itself, though. I've joked (kinda self-deprecatingly) about regretful stuff. It's male bonding. I don't buy that women don't do it, though, not even as a general rule. I have enough female friends to have been involved in plenty of lewd, funny chats about sex stuff.

For the record, I'm personally very strict about getting involved with people in a relationship, but I don't blame anyone for doing so. The guardian of that relationship is the person actually in it. Again, drunk or not, I don't blame a person for having consensual sex.

WHOA! not even close. He was quoting a point i made in my OP about a situation i was in where i had no problem saying no while drunk. In my case the girl wasn't just 'not saying no' she was actively asking for it. I'm saying the opposite, that the when a girl gets drunk she can act overly sexual, that doesn't mean she is fair game. Women may talk about they're exploits and fuck drunk guys, but:

A) men generally admit to not caring whereas women generally actively find it degrading. Men know this yet do it anyway.
B) Women are not trained by culture to find ego strokes through sexual conquest in the same way men are. In general they are actively viewed negatively for this behavior for right or wrong whereas men are viewed positively - again for right or wrong.

 

[coldshadow]

part of why I don't let my girlfriend go out drinking alone, someone gets drunk enough they might not stop it from happening. not only that but some guys are real creeps and wont stop if she says no. I love her and know she loves me but I cant handle that kind of worry.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I'm sure anybody over the age of 25 thats male has had sexual partners that they cant remember the name of, the face of or anything else for that matter due to the first and only contact being under the influence of alcahol. I will hold my hand up and say i have, far more than i care to remember (or not remember).

I think anyone over 25 is a huge exaggeration. For example, I found a site (Rasmussen Reports) which says that 29% of Americans dont drink alcohol at all. The median number for sexual partners of a man (from ABC and again in the US) is 8. I'm guessing most people could remember all 8.

The context of the original post was about alcahol and i was merely putting forward my experiences of alcahol and sex. When i said anyone over 25 i meant anyone who likes to get trashed...obviously if people are over 25 and sober then they bloody should remember it, i always have. I don't always remember much of a night out and occasionally that culminates with me waking up either somewbere ive no idea of or at home with some random female i have no idea the name of. It's usually both of us that have no idea of the others name and as such its a double shame.

I will say that of all my conquests there is only 1 i never met up with again later and it is quite amusing when you get together at a later date and discuss it with them. Hell, i woke up in bed with the same lass 2 weeks on the trot and couldn't remember her name, although she remembered mine the second time...she did instigate it both times.

Im no shag-nasty though, i only tip that average by 2 so far and im not really looking anymore since my last relationship ended rather violently and has left me totally jaded by psychotic women wielding knives

 

[Therumancer]

Here is the situation. First of all, notice that I am female so this is most definitely not me we are talking about and the situation didn't happen to me, but never the less affects me deeply. Anyway here is the scenario:

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?

I obviously don't understand male sexuality at all and in my eyes this is extremely disgusting. Like, devastatingly disgusting. I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left. She was so drunk and horny she was actually pissed at me at the time. But I couldn't have lived with myself the next day, I knew she would never have been there if she wasn't beyond capacity hammered.

What do you think?

Edit: She didn't come on to him, he came on to her and she didn't stop it or say no specifically. I hope that clears that up.

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior. In the example I gave of myself in the same situation, I was not only wasted, i was also (for better or worse) super high on coke (it was a long time ago). This means that, yes, she has some blame here for her own actions. She knows that and hates herself, but putting that aside, it's the guys side of this i'm interested in really just now.

Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

The devil is in the details in cases like this. The first question of course is WHERE this happened. To be entirely honest a lot of girls like to get messed up and head out to screw around like that because it's exciting, and set themselves up on purpose. If this girl is in a local pick up bar and gets that smashed, it's not surprising that she hooked up with some local guy she knows for some casual sex.

In cases where girls want more control over this kind of situation they tend not to go to these places alone, and have some other girls as "drinking buddies" to watch their back so to speak and keep an eye on who they take to bed with them or whatever.

To be honest guys do the same thing, and get picked up and taken advantage of themselves, it's just that society tends to pay less attention to the flip side of the equasion.

Now on the other hand if this was someplace like a private party where she got smashed expecting there not to be much in the way of a sexual atmosphere for whatever reason, and the guy took advantage, that might be something else entirely given the nature of the location and gathering. Of course then again with certain kinds of parties (the "wild" kind) it's the same basic thing as the singles bar. A mutal friend's birthday or something being a bit differant than say heading down to the local frat house the day after midterms end or whatever.

Also asking the opinions of people on the internet doesn't work for things like this as you really need to know the people involved. Your opinion is fairly obvious, and it's pretty clear what side your on, I'm in no position to dispute your take on the situation due to a simple lack of knowlege. To be honest just because this girl is with someone doesn't mean she didn't also like this guy even if she considered him "beneath her" and set that entire thing up so deniability could be involved. Questions like "how drunk was she really" very much come into the equasion. Also she says she didn't come onto him, and I'm guessing he's being a gentleman (guys won't say when girls come onto them a lot of times), but that doesn't mean it's true.

In the end it's done, and it's for the people involved (girl, guy, boyfriend) to sort out. Stuff like this happens, and really I think it's a case where life is going to just go on.

As far as not understanding male sexuality, well it goes the other way as well, the whole thing about "gender politics" is a recurring joke in society. In reality I think both sides understand each other quite well, and men and women aren't as differant as they like to try and pretend.

To be honest I think this is relatively mild.