A View From the Road: Screw Warcraft IV

[Spitfire175]

Pass and disagree. There isn't any progression just reskined NPC with repeat of same boring quest.

Warcraft and it's stories are just a cheap knock off of Warhammer. Yeah I'm that guy. troll blah blah blah.

Except... you're wrong.

And personally, I prefer Warcraft to Warhammer in pretty much every aspect. go figure

Now you're just that other guy wearing a differnt shirt.

The story cannot truly contiunue in an MMO in which the WORLD REMAINS COMPLETELY UNCHANGED REGARDLESS OF THE PLAYER'S ACTIONS. Sorry for capslock. I had to. I played WOW for over a year, maxed out a few characters and got bored. The world is static. If Blizzard suddenly decides "hey, let's get a move on, pick up the story and leave the players out of it!", then it is when WoW will die. If the world starts to change, everyone has to be online and playing at the same time, otherwise they'll mix the big events. It's not like they can do that over and over again. The reason people paly MMORPGs is grinding. That happens in a bland emotionless repeatative world that is stuck in a time loop.

 

[John Funk]

Pass and disagree. There isn't any progression just reskined NPC with repeat of same boring quest.

Warcraft and it's stories are just a cheap knock off of Warhammer. Yeah I'm that guy. troll blah blah blah.

Except... you're wrong.

And personally, I prefer Warcraft to Warhammer in pretty much every aspect. go figure

Now you're just that other guy wearing a differnt shirt.

The story cannot truly contiunue in an MMO in which the WORLD REMAINS COMPLETELY UNCHANGED REGARDLESS OF THE PLAYER'S ACTIONS. Sorry for capslock. I had to. I played WOW for over a year, maxed out a few characters and got bored. The world is static. If Blizzard suddenly decides "hey, let's get a move on, pick up the story and leave the players out of it!", then it is when WoW will die. If the world starts to change, everyone has to be online and playing at the same time, otherwise they'll mix the big events. It's not like they can do that over and over again. The reason people paly MMORPGs is grinding. That happens in a bland emotionless repeatative world that is stuck in a time loop.

BZZZT. Sorry, that's not entirely correct.

Ignoring Cataclysm and how they're redoing everything, you aren't taking into account the Phasing technology introduced in Wrath of the Lich King that addressed just that concern. Simply put: When you complete a quest, you are phased into the next iteration of a zone (all of which exist on top of each other) where things are different. For example - in Icecrown, you free a bunch of captive Knights of the Ebon Blade for a quest, then kill the master of the prison they were held in. You go back, turn in the quest, then get sent back out there - and find that in the time you've been away, the DKs you freed turned the area into a full quest hub complete with vendors, flight paths, repair merchants, etc.

It's used to great effect in the DK starting area, too, as you (under the command of the lich king) break the defenses of the Scarlet Enclave in Avalon and slowly take back ground bit by bit. And Cataclysm looks to be taking it to a bit more of an extreme level, phasing entire terrain (for example, having a coastline that gets blown up and slides into the water).

So while your complaint was true for the year you might have played in Classic WoW/TBC, they've moved to address it in WotLK and will continue in Cata (presumably, so that everyone will be able to experience the actual Cataclysm for themselves). Phasing is a fantastic concept that I think almost every MMO should consider adopting.

 

[SilentScope001]

Then why didn't you mention that in your article (at least, I believe you didn't)? Phasing could be a way to argue for how MMORPGs are improving in their storyline capacity. But you're talking to people who are ignorant about these things, so of course they don't know about "phasing" and can't take that into account.

 

[Spitfire175]

*snip*

So what happens when the players reach the end? Just interested to know your thoughts on that.


Anyway, I demand that Blizzard eventually makes WC IV. WoW was a spinoff to begin with, so the original story should continue as it started: a small scale, fun, dark, witty RTS.

 

[John Funk]

Then why didn't you mention that in your article (at least, I believe you didn't)? Phasing could be a way to argue for how MMORPGs are improving in their storyline capacity. But you're talking to people who are ignorant about these things, so of course they don't know about "phasing" and can't take that into account.

I believe I touched on it - at least mentioned it. It probably could have been a bit more of a focus, though.

*snip*

So what happens when the players reach the end? Just interested to know your thoughts on that.


Anyway, I demand that Blizzard eventually makes WC IV. WoW was a spinoff to begin with, so the original story should continue as it started: a small scale, fun, dark, witty RTS.

The same thing that happens when anyone reaches the end of any story in a game? If you've done every single quest in the game, you've completed all of the storylines that exist thus far. But, as it's a game that's constantly being updated, you get more quests, and more layers of zones that phase.

 

[Spitfire175]

The same thing that happens when anyone reaches the end of any story in a game? If you've done every single quest in the game, you've completed all of the storylines that exist thus far. But, as it's a game that's constantly being updated, you get more quests, and more layers of zones that phase.

Soooo that means they'll stop playing. Good marketing. "Play this and you can finally stop playing this game!"

 

[rileyrulesu]

Pardon my ignorance but, WARCRAFT 4? WHEN WAS THAT ANNOUNCED? Honestly, do the people at blizzard realize the problem with this, or did they just decide their hardcore fanbase was too nerdy and a plague on society and are announcing Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and Warcraft IV simultaneously in an attept to blow the major blizzard fanboys heads off?

 

[Eldarion]

Very good article.

There IS a story in WoW. Even if you don't like it, its there(I liked that part)

 

[Eldarion]

The same thing that happens when anyone reaches the end of any story in a game? If you've done every single quest in the game, you've completed all of the storylines that exist thus far. But, as it's a game that's constantly being updated, you get more quests, and more layers of zones that phase.

Soooo that means they'll stop playing. Good marketing. "Play this and you can finally stop playing this game!"

It means they can;

A: start a new character to experience different parts of the story or a different class's approach to the existing quests.

B: Wait for new content.

C: Play it after the story FOR FUN.

 

[John Funk]

Pardon my ignorance but, WARCRAFT 4? WHEN WAS THAT ANNOUNCED? Honestly, do the people at blizzard realize the problem with this, or did they just decide their hardcore fanbase was too nerdy and a plague on society and are announcing Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and Warcraft IV simultaneously in an attept to blow the major blizzard fanboys heads off?

It wasn't announced. Last Blizzard, WoW big boss J Allen Brack said that he was fairly certain that the RTS team would want to work on WC4 once everything was finished with StarCraft 2. So it's more of a "Yeah, it'll probably happen. Eventually."

The same thing that happens when anyone reaches the end of any story in a game? If you've done every single quest in the game, you've completed all of the storylines that exist thus far. But, as it's a game that's constantly being updated, you get more quests, and more layers of zones that phase.

Soooo that means they'll stop playing. Good marketing. "Play this and you can finally stop playing this game!"

Noooot quite. There's still a ton to do. Think of it like a GTA game. Once you've beaten the main storyline, you're theoretically done, but there's a city to explore, extra missions to do. WoW still has its dungeons and raids, its PvP, etc - things that people do because they're fun. Also, I know very few people who have legitimately finished every quest in the game. (I'm working on being one of them, but damn if the Classic WoW content isn't a pain in the ass after the smoothness of TBC/WotLK questing)

Edit: D'oh, beaten to it!

 

[Eldarion]

Edit: D'oh, beaten to it!

Ha Ha! XD

But no, you went into more detail.

Seriously, great article.

 

[Spitfire175]

It means they can;

A: start a new character to experience different parts of the story or a different class's approach to the existing quests.

B: Wait for new content.

C: Play it after the story FOR FUN.

A: Repeat what they've already done. Great.
B: Pay more and repeat.
C: Repeat the repeatative parts? Oh, I can just feel the fun.

Anyway, why bother? It's the grinding that keeps people palying now, why would they suddenly bring the game to a possible end? And when they know the RTS is going to sell millions, so they make the money they're after anyway.

 

[John Funk]

It means they can;

A: start a new character to experience different parts of the story or a different class's approach to the existing quests.

B: Wait for new content.

C: Play it after the story FOR FUN.

A: Repeat what they've already done. Great.
B: Pay more and repeat.
C: Repeat the repeatative parts? Oh, I can just feel the fun.

Anyway, why bother? It's the grinding that keeps people palying now, why would they suddenly bring the game to a possible end? And when they know the RTS is going to sell millions, so they make the money they're after anyway.

Psst. Some people enjoy playing the game.

It's a crazy concept, I know! But are you going to laugh at people who still play TF2 or Halo 3 multiplayer, "repeating what they've already done"? No, that's absurd. They're still enjoying themselves, just as I still enjoy raiding Ulduar and joking around on Vent with my guildies.

And no one said anything about bringing the game to an end. They'd rather add new content - which, to address your complaint, would NOT be what players have already done.

 

[Eldarion]

It means they can;

A: start a new character to experience different parts of the story or a different class's approach to the existing quests.

B: Wait for new content.

C: Play it after the story FOR FUN.

A: Repeat what they've already done. Great.
B: Pay more and repeat.
C: Repeat the repeatative parts? Oh, I can just feel the fun.

Anyway, why bother? It's the grinding that keeps people palying now, why would they suddenly bring the game to a possible end? And when they know the RTS is going to sell millions, so they make the money they're after anyway.

11 million people think its a fun game.

If you pick a different race/class it fells like a different game. Each class takes a different approach to the various challenges.

Plus, there is A LOT of content in WoW, it would take forever to have played it all.

Edit= Ah, you got it first this time

 

[Spitfire175]

11 million people think its a fun game.

If you pick a different race/class it fells like a different game. Each class takes a different approach to the various challenges.

Plus, there is A LOT of content in WoW, it would take forever to have played it all.

Edit= Ah, you got it first this time

I'm arguing with 2 people here.
I don't want to turn this into a MMORPG flame war, so I'm gonna drop it. After all, my original point was to argue that Warcraft IV as an RTS is much better for continuing the story rather than using WOW to move things forward.

 

[Eldarion]

my original point was to argue that Warcraft IV as an RTS is much better for continuing the story rather than using WOW to move things forward.

That is your opinion. Allot of people like to play WoW, its part of the same universe and cannon to the story.

There is allot of enjoyable story there for everyone who wants it.

 

[Jzolr0708]

If I had a nickle for every time someone complained about World of Warcraft, I wouldn't be sitting in my basement playing Bioshock while all my friends are having ODST parties. I have to agree with you on this one John. It's unbelievable how many times, in World of Warcraft itself, too, that people complain about the lack of WC4. They seem to believe that while balancing Diablo and Starcraft updates, designing new X-Pacs for WoW, and keeping the WC 1-3 Battle Net servers updated, Blizzard must also make us a new game at our whim.

They get so fussed up over the fact that Blizzard isn't working on WC4, advancing the storyline, while they don't realize WoW is advancing the WC storyline.

Moral of this story: If you want new Warcraft Storylines, you could try reading the quest logs for once, instead of using Quest Helper.

And, also, a quote about people getting so fussed up over Warcraft:

"Yes, this game is SERIOUS BUISNESS! It should be sold in POST OFFICES and FUNERAL HOMES!"
Relax, enjoy the content we have now, and be patient. If Blizz doesn't want to expand onto WC4 and instead use WoW as they're way of expanding lore, so be it.


Now, I'm off to go tape ODST helmets over Marcus and Dom, and place Elite cutouts over Boomers, and beat myself with my controller until I believe that I'm not playing Gears 2.

 

[SilentScope001]

I'm thinking about the Phasing gimmick. I'm worried that TOR is going to use this gimmick as a way to pretend that it has a good storyline. So, Mr. FakeTheFunk, explain this to us MMORPG luddites.

How does phasing work in terms of interaction with the rest of the playerbase? Do you interact with everybody: those who finished the Questline, and those who did not finish the questline? Then it could lead to veteran players and newbie players seeing differnet things, and reacting to different visual stimli.
"This city is burning down to the GROUND! NOOOO!"
"Huh? Oh you mean that Save This City That Is Burning Down quest that I completed six months ago. Don't worry about that n00b."

ONLY interact with players who have finished the same questline as you? Then it could lead to a potential online argument over who actually completed the questline:
"I saved this city!"
"No, it was I who saved this city!"
"Fools! I was the one who saved this city!"

Or do you interact with yourself and the NPCs? It then turns the MMORPG into a strange SP game with a MP lobby, where you have to paya subscription fee. Will it work? I think it could, but it loses the whole multiplayer aspect of MMORPGs. It would be ironic really.

Moral of this story: If you want new Warcraft Storylines, you could try reading the quest logs for once, instead of using Quest Helper.

Real Moral of the Story: If you want new Warcraft Storylines, read the Warcraft wiki (and watch the Youtube videos of WoW cutscenes), and pay $0 for the game all together! All the fun of the storyline...with none of the grind and annoying newbies.

 

[John Funk]

I'm thinking about the Phasing gimmick. I'm worried that TOR is going to use this gimmick as a way to pretend that it has a good storyline. So, Mr. FakeTheFunk, explain this to us MMORPG luddites.

How does phasing work in terms of interaction with the rest of the playerbase? Do you interact with everybody: those who finished the Questline, and those who did not finish the questline? Then it could lead to veteran players and newbie players seeing differnet things, and reacting to different visual stimli.
"This city is burning down to the GROUND! NOOOO!"
"Huh? Oh you mean that Save This City That Is Burning Down quest that I completed six months ago. Don't worry about that n00b."

ONLY interact with players who have finished the same questline as you? Then it could lead to a potential online argument over who actually completed the questline:
"I saved this city!"
"No, it was I who saved this city!"
"Fools! I was the one who saved this city!"

Or do you interact with yourself and the NPCs? It then turns the MMORPG into a strange SP game with a MP lobby, where you have to paya subscription fee. Will it work? I think it could, but it loses the whole multiplayer aspect of MMORPGs. It would be ironic really.

Moral of this story: If you want new Warcraft Storylines, you could try reading the quest logs for once, instead of using Quest Helper.

Real Moral of the Story: If you want new Warcraft Storylines, read the Warcraft wiki (and watch the Youtube videos of WoW cutscenes), and pay $0 for the game all together! All the fun of the storyline...with none of the grind and annoying newbies.

There are different degrees of phasing. Sometimes, it's as simple as a simple visual overlay - if you've finished a quest to set fire to an enemy encampment, you'll see it as burned out, but another person who hasn't done the quest would be riding by you and see it as it used to be.

Other times, more significant phasing (like the aforementioned quest hub) means that you won't actually be able to see people who aren't in your phase. The only people who exist - at least there, in that one particular spot - are those who have completed the quest line as well.

So in effect, it uses both of them depending on the circumstances. Of course, nobody in an MMO actually reacts or interacts like the people in your your examples, so... You're seeing problems where there aren't any, I feel. Maybe on an RP server, but...

Nor do I know how SWTOR will handle it.

(Also, psst. You still don't seem to understand that there are people who actually enjoy playing the game. If you find the game a chore to put up with for the sake of, say, experiencing the story, then that's your personal preference. Some of us like playing the game AND experiencing the story.

Edit: Whoops, kind of confused you with the other guy. Sorry about that.)

 

[SilentScope001]

It's okay. I don't play WoW, but I understand why certain people like MMORPGs, and I played some MMORPGs in the past and enjoyed them (somewhat). They aren't really for me, but neither is the Halo series.

I am more interested about how WoW is attempting to tell a storyline, in the hopes of predicting how Bioware plans on solving the storyline problem.

I always subscribed to the hypothesis that MMORPG storylines need to be "dynamic", that MMORPGs must let players decide the fate of the storyline itself, so that players begin to actually CARE and invest time into the storyline. There are two ways that I believe that a "dynamic" storyline could go :
*An PvP war, where the war between the many player factions IS the actual storyline, and victory for your faction leads to you unlocking certain new quests
*Certain major questlines that are only accessible during a small period of time (like, say, only in March 2008). If players complete this questline, then the next stage of the storyline is revealed. Fluff is changed to reflect how the players affected the questline, if they choose one way, the fluff is changed to reflect it.

Phasing leads to the impliciation that a "dynamic" storyline is not really needed; a static lineral storyline could very well be developed, where everything is already pre-determined instead of left to the MMO playerbase to decide where the storyline can go. Interesting.