Abortion....why?

[Singularly Datarific]

Because they believe that life begins at conception and that killing the "baby" is murder. I don't know what part of the Bible it's in though. Personally don't see why they'll give a bunch of uncoordinated cells more rights than a fully formed person who happens to be gay.

Edit: I know why they do but it's still bullshit.

I'll give you a hint. It's not in it.

Anyways, it's the fundamentalists, emphasis on mental.

What I propose in the abortion controversy is to completely bar guys from having a say. Guys will never ever ever EVER become pregnant and are not the people who it applies to, so why do they get involved in such hissy-fits over it?

My mother tried to have a child between my sister and I. The baby died in her womb and she had to go to Planned Parenthood to have it taken out. As she was going, she was yelled at and ridiculed by people assuming she was aborting her baby. She said it was one of the worst experiences in her life because she already felt HORRIBLE because she lost the baby that she had wanted to keep and people were treating her like some criminal for just walking into the office.

Find me those people and I will punch them in the face with a chair.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I think many of the posters are missing the point / lack the proper perspective. The question isn't why anyone thinks abortion is wrong, it's why so many Christians think abortion is wrong. I find the murder argument is getting us nowhere. Sure, "murder" is wrong according to the Ten Commandments, but there's tons of murder in the Bible, much of it seemingly justified by the writing. Plus, I don't see tons of Christian anti war protests or Christian death penalty protests or Christians teaming up with PETA (because after all "fur is murder").

Why do they think abortion is murder and how does it connect to their religious background?

I didn't even know they made it to five movies.

I think there were 9 of them in total and the fifth one did suck very much. I say it still technically qualifies as a work of art, as well as the Twilight "saga." I'm not a stickler on the art definition as some people.

 

[Lerasai]

I understand perfectly the feeling of not even wanting to get into an argument to defend the opposing view. It just seems pointless, even if you do raise good points the other person probably isn't going to rethink their view based on what you said, if anything they'll cling even more strongly to their belief simply because someone else is saying they're wrong and they don't want to be.

I have to admit, though, if I had happened upon the discussion you did I would have reacted pretty badly. It just makes me irrationally angry when men talk about how terrible abortion is and how it should be illegal. I know the subject concerns men as well, but not to the same extent as it does women. It's not their bodies they're talking about, so it's so easy for them to say how terrible abortion is. They would never have to make that sort of difficult decision nor would they be forced to have a child they didn't want to have if abortion were illegal. So it just pisses me off when I hear men say that women shouldn't have a choice.

 

[TorqueConverter]

Abortion is a touchy topic. It is difficult to argue morality one way or the other. It's not as simple as "Christians are pro life and Atheist are pro choice", then picking a side. Morally and legally it is wrong to kill people. The definition morally and legally on what "people" are is vague at best. Is "people" a member of the human species, or it is only rational sentient beings? The modern stance on pro choice is a feminist one that gives no consideration to whether or not the fetus is people. Pro choice is just that, a choice for the woman and woman alone to make. It is her body and the fetus requires her body to survive. The woman may chose to remove the fetus from her body as she and only she, has control over her body. People or not, life or death, a woman has a right to her body.

It's a pretty rock solid argument that in my opinion men are ill prepared to make to make moral recommendations.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

This is why we have a Religion and Politics board. Watch this thread get filled with pages of venom hissing.

What I would say has already been said. Anti-abortionists see a fetus as a live thing even if it's still in the womb, and that aborting it is murder.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

It's a religious thing because the best way to have a ever expanding group of followers is to have your followers have kids. The more kids they have, the more future followers. This is why Catholicism is particularly large. Think of families who are stereotyped as being "large families" and what religion are they? Most of the time, they are Catholic. People are going to have sex, the best way to cash in on this is to ban contraceptives and abortion so as many kids are born into that religion as possible.

I considered that angle, but it implies a sort of Dastardly Dan level of conspiracy which would have required that someone at some point put legitimate thought into it. And if that were the case, why can't priests and nuns have sex? When abortion / contraceptives come up, it seems like it's not so much Catholics that seem to be the most outspoken. I could be perceiving this wrong, but they seem to preach that doctrine predominately to their own followers, whereas Protestant Christian groups like the Baptists take it upon themselves to spread the word on the evils of family planning to people who are not Christians.

I once saw a documentary in high school on how the population in Italy is dropping dramatically because not even Italians listen to the Catholic Church anymore when it comes to sexual practices.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

This is why we have a Religion and Politics board. Watch this thread get filled with pages of venom hissing.

We do? Whoops. My mistake. People seem to be nice so far, surprisingly.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

This is why we have a Religion and Politics board. Watch this thread get filled with pages of venom hissing.

We do? Whoops. My mistake. People seem to be nice so far, surprisingly.

Yeah, 'cause this is the Off-Topic Forum. I treat Religion and Politics like the dark corner of the Escapist.

I haven't visited that place in the past few months because I detest the people there that much.

 

[Haagrum]

As lacktheknack says, if you take the view (based on religious beliefs) that (1) people have souls, and (2) "ensoulment" occurs at conception, then abortion is a form of lawful homicide committed against the most vulnerable "people" in the world. If you accept that position as true (leaving aside the lack of actual evidence), it's fairly simple to see why people would get pretty steamed up about the "evils" of abortion. If you reject or question any element of that understanding, "pro-lifers" will probably seem like nutters to you.

For some, it is even more objectionable because it places freedom from the consequences of irresponsible or immoral conduct (including consumption of drugs or alcohol) ahead of an innocent person's life. This trumps any other concerns for many - although I can't see how genuine threats to health for a pregnant woman could be so easily disregarded. Taking an absolutist principle and attaching both moral judgments and religious tenets to it... well, it's easy to see why some people would take it to the lengths that some anti-abortionists do.

I don't hold with the view that the religious traditionalists just want to subjugate women or, as prestoprozak says, to punish people for having sex outside marriage - although I'm sure many of them do. In most cases, I'm confident that it is simply an under-considered and dogmatic certainty which drives opposition, without the compassion that comes from taking the time to consider why someone might want to end a pregnancy or the effects (of either carrying to term or terminating). There is a bias built into our biology which means that men don't have to deal with the consequences of those choices or attitudes in anything like the same fashion as women.

In fairness to anti-abortion campaigners, they are correct in saying that abortion is undesirable. No-one should ever view abortion as being anything other than a "least worst" option, or that women should have more of them. It's just a shame that there is all too frequently a readiness to judge and an unwillingness to help - while many are willing to condemn, few are willing or able to suggest alternatives. Don't get me started on the ineffectiveness of "teen abstinence" programs. Demonising abortion is a lot easier than presenting a "better way" (or one that isn't bound up in the advocate's personal religious beliefs, at least).

TL;DR: Because it's easier to judge or disapprove than to help or show compassion.

OT: Why are so many "pro-lifers" also in favour of the death penalty, and why do a minority of them promote violence/murder against doctors who perform pregnancy terminations? I've met many devout Christians who are utterly opposed to abortion and capital punishment, which is internally consistent at least, but I can't understand how a different view can be reconciled with the "sanctity of human life" approach. Surely, if life is sacred, there should be no moral distinction between intentionally taking the life of an unborn child/foetus for "the mother's health/convenience" and intentionally taking the life of a convicted murderer who is in custody for "justice/vengeance"?

 

[cheese_wizington]

Anyways, I hate "pro-life" people for the simple fact that they are trying to make other peoples decisions for them, when they have no right to get all meddled in others business. Fuck em, if their lives are so boring that if all they have to do is protest abortion, then they can all just go kill themselves and save us the trouble.

 

[Matthew Geskey]

It because of tradition. No one got abortions for the first couple thousand years of human history. And there are actually people who think that the best choice is the most popular one. Most of those people are Christians.

Now, I think that freedom is the ultimate good, and preventing life is removal of all freedom. So abortion should be allowed if the "child" agrees to give all of his freedom to his mother.

 

[Freaky Lou]

Because they believe that life begins at conception and that killing the "baby" is murder. I don't know what part of the Bible it's in though. Personally don't see why they'll give a bunch of uncoordinated cells more rights than a fully formed person who happens to be gay.

Edit: I know why they do but it's still bullshit.

How is "not being killed" more rights than they afford homosexuals? Complete lunatics aside, I've never ever heard a Christian say it shouldn't be illegal to kill gay people.

I know where you're coming from, that was just a very poor comparison.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

As lacktheknack says, if you take the view (based on religious beliefs) that (1) people have souls, and (2) "ensoulment" occurs at conception, then abortion is a form of lawful homicide committed against the most vulnerable "people" in the world. If you accept that position as true (leaving aside the lack of actual evidence), it's fairly simple to see why people would get pretty steamed up about the "evils" of abortion. If you reject or question any element of that understanding, "pro-lifers" will probably seem like nutters to you.

I deem this a satisfying answer. I could ask why wouldn't they want to get abortions to send these thousands of souls directly to heaven and eternal happiness, but that would be ignoring the main thesis of your post. Thank you and good night.

 

[BreakfastMan]

I haven't visited that place in the past few months because I detest the people there that much.

Heh, most of the people who frequent that section (re: over 50%) are perfectly fine! ):

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

I haven't visited that place in the past few months because I detest the people there that much.

Heh, most of the people who frequent that section (re: over 50%) are perfectly fine! ):

And it's that remaining percent that absolutely ruin that place for me and many others.

 

[Robert Ewing]

Well, I guess it's a matter of peoples perception on when life begins.

Sure, technically life begins the very second it's fertilized. But, it's essentially equal to a virus, or cancer. They act in completely the same way. The cells multiply into whatever code the DNA tell it to.

I think that abortion is fine in this case, right up until it's brain is developed, it's nervous system is active, and it has the ability to be aware of it's surroundings... Obviously it isn't aware of it's surroundings as it's in stasis, but that's not the point. I think that's at 10 weeks (although I'm not sure.) That's when I think the point of no return should be, once the nervous system and brain is finished construction and active. From my point of view, that now has the full potential of becoming a human being. It's no longer a cancerous symbiotic lump of tissue destined to ruin your wallet size for all eternity. It can experience pain, it can feel, it can think... potentially.

That is my time limit. If you do not want the child, or can't have the child, for whatever reason, as i'm sure there are many, get rid of it before the 10 weeks is up. After that I see it as... Well, snuffing out perfectly good potential for life.

In short, I do agree with abortion. It is necessary, and an incredibly important part of our society. Sometimes people need to control whether they want to completely change their lives forever, and become responsible for another person's life for their remainder life time.

It sounds incredibly harsh, and really cold and heartless, but sometimes life must be stalled for the greater good. And not to offend anyone, but Abortion isn't killing a person, it's killing a process that binds, manipulates and multiplies cells to create a person.

 

[Aprilgold]

On the other hand, the anti-abortion people are continually upset by the law not supporting their views.

I bolded that there because thats sorta how society works, HOWEVER if we change the word People to Hardcore Religious Followers then you have what amounts to blind faith and therefore can not listen to reason.

Seriously, I stopped caring what Hardcore Religious Followers have to say when they think that everything is a sin and ignore some of their own gospel.

 

[TehCookie]

It because of tradition. No one got abortions for the first couple thousand years of human history. And there are actually people who think that the best choice is the most popular one. Most of those people are Christians.

Now, I think that freedom is the ultimate good, and preventing life is removal of all freedom. So abortion should be allowed if the "child" agrees to give all of his freedom to his mother.

Actually in the past they didn't do abortions as we know it, but they did try to induce miscarriages. Not to mention back then there was less of a concern for safety because having a normal baby was still dangerous. While the christian church was against it at first it was never illegal and later it was more acceptable since families couldn't afford to feed all their kids. Fun facts I learned in my sociology class.

 

[Something Amyss]

I read the Bible. I really don't remember abortion being a topic for discussion, seeing as how the people who wrote the Bible and were alive when it took place didn't even know what germs were, let alone how sexual reproduction worked, let alone have a word for the concept of intentional aborted pregnancy.

If you're expecting Christianity to rely on the Bible to determine their beliefs, you're going to be shocked a lot.

 

[Xanadu84]

Why is it so associated with Christianity? I don't know. That is a puzzler.

Why are people so passionate about it? That's easy.

First, I am pro-choice. Abortions are fine, morally and otherwise. But its easy to see where the pro-lifers get so feisty.

Pro-lifers believe that life, the soul, begins at conception. The soul, consciousness, whatever, is a very weird, confusing, mystery filled topic. We just can't know for sure. The idea that a soul comes to us at conception seems about as crazy as any other theory. And after conception, where the baby itself starts to form in certain ways, its even easier to think that maybe there's a soul in that thing. Now sure, logically, you should look at brain development, but glossing over that if your not a strong adherent to the scientific method is pretty natural. Besides, the only sane thing to do is err on the side of caution. And so, you have Pro-lifers making very few wrong assumptions, and no assumptions that are actually crazy, and that only slightly wrong logic arrives at the conclusion that abortion is the wide-scale legally sanctioned murder of babies. Literally. To say that you are a man and it can't effect you is exactly like saying that you are not Jewish so its wrong to criticize those Nazis in their concentration camps. From that perspective, there is functionally no difference between a woman saying her body, her choice, and a mother who puts her baby in the back seat of a car and drives it into a lake. From that perspective, a perspective that is very easy to understand when you squint just right, stopping abortion is an even bigger moral imperative then stopping the most horrible genocide you can imagine.

This is what bugs me about pro-choice arguments: They rarely matter. Argue that an aborted fetus doesn't have the brain cells for consciousness, because thats the only thing that matters. That is the singular and only argument that counters the pro-lifers argument that abortion is Murder, and if Abortion is murder, nothing a pro-choice person could say could counter that. Womens Rights don't actually matter in the Abortion debate. If the baby is consciousness, infanticide is by far the worse sin. If the baby isn't, there's no reason to oppose abortion in the first place.