Ain't no homo gonna make it to heaven

[jackpackage200]

I could slew around a few quotes, like Napoleon's "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich," but I don't think it would fit the given context. Plus, people get mad.

Whyyyyy the sudden influx of homophobes though? I swear it wasn't this bad a few years ago.

Backlash. The very usage of terms like "homophobe" explains exactly why your seeing some major responses from the other direction. Basically it's an issue that has the US divided roughly 50-50, for a lot of differant reasons. The pro-gay movement has been increasingly offensive, belligerant, and unwilling to even consider the anti-gay side of things. Left wing media control helped maintain that and present the illusion that the anti-gay side of things was some tiny, fringe, majority, but as that was never the case your starting to see that side rallying and becoming increasingly vocal.

I'm pretty much at the center of the issue, whether anuyone wants to accept that or not, being in the middle between anti-gay and pro-gay. Being seperated from both sides (and disliked by both sides) it gives me a pretty clear perception of how things are moving. The left wing/pro gay side has had a lot of intertia, but intertia ultimatly fades, and your seeing the other side having rallied and it's likely to start pushing back big time. It may or may not happen, but I kind of figure you'll see the pro-gay movement gradually losing steam, and then things to start swinging back in a very anti-gay direction for a while. This will continue until all of the all or nothing "we will not negotiate on this issue" guys on both sides knock it off and meet somewhere in the middle, which will leave nobody really happey, but will throw a bucket of ice on the conflict.

See, the mistake you are making there is trying to argue that homophobia is an acceptable view on any level. Talking about it like it is an argument with two equally valid "Sides" (Which is how you come accross). Homophobia is not ok. It is not the worst thing in the world, but it is just not ok. On the one side you have people who want the freedom to love who they want, marry who they love and live a happy life. On the other side, you have a bunch of wankers who don't want homosexuals to be happy. Let me make it clear that I am not saying all christians are like that, yada yada, or even that anyone who is not interested in the debate. But you know what? There are plenty of people in this world that don't like homosexuals (For whatever reasons) but are on the same side of the debate because they care about civil liberties. I have friends who have admitted that the idea of two guys kissing makes them feel slightly ill. They still think that gay marriage should be legal. The kind of people who are on the "Anti-Gay" side of the debate are, without a shadow of a doubt, horrible people.

There should be no negotiation on this issue. Especially in the states.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Pretty sure "Freedom to be in love with someone" is covered by the pursuit of happiness. Ergo, fighting against the "Gay" movement is fighting against the declaration of independence. I thought you Americans were all for those old, musty documents?

Discrimination is bad. End of. Homophobia is bad, Racism is bad, you get the idea. Times have moved on, its about time the "West" stopped clinging on to this bullshit.

I request the highest of fives.

That was very well written and nicely explains why homophobia is wrong.

 

[Vegosiux]

Someone better teach that kid that we're all Homo Sapiens, really. And if we go for "gay" instead, that we don't see why happy people shouldn't be allowed to heaven either. Or cigarette butts. And so on.

Things won't change until your side admits that there is validity to the other side and it isn't entirely the kind of issue you have convinced yourself it is. Likewise the other side has to do something very similar when it comes to a lot of the faith based arguements. Once that happens, it will be possible to see an actual resolution.

Problem is, not always are opposing views created equal. Yes, I'm going to have the gall to say that being opposed to discrimination and bigotry is inherently superior to supporting it merely by virtue of taking a stand against something disruptive.

 

[Muspelheim]

I'd like to ask them one thing; what is it that makes them different from the other religious extremists the U.S. Army is currently fighting in Afghanistan?

Fuck 'em. My patience with these sort of people have really been rather drained as of late... I just wish we could find a separate time-pocket or something they could all go to live in so the rest of us wouldn't have to put up with their bullshit.

Also, it's not about an "Opinion X-group" vs "Opinion Y". It's about one group actively demanding the repression and degredation of another group, for no other reason than "It's what grandpa did" or "It says so in our extra special importantbook".

The well being of living humans trumps retarded traditions. Full stop. It's not negotiable.

 

[Therumancer]

[
Again, you don't see it, and that's fine, but that's the entire problem, NEITHER side sees it. I do, but only because I'm standing in the middle looking at either end.

No, you're really not in the middle. You don't understand the situation at all.

I see it far more clearly than you do, but it's fine, I didn't think this was going to be some big eye opener on this site, it's simply the direct answer to a question as to why something is happening.

I imagine the KKK feels the same way as you do. They all think they see it more clearly.

It should be noted that a lot of your points about racism and such actually reinforce the other side, as most people on the other side are indeed those who disagree with racism and other forms of bigotry, yet for some reason draw a line here, and the video aside, not all of them are religious. If your ever going to put an end to this by winding up on the middle ground you need to look at why this is differant, take a lot of things you don't want to believe for moral reasons, accept them as having a lot of truth in them, and adjust your position accordingly. Of course at the same time the other side DOES have to get over certain things itself, including a lot of the religion based arguements.

Worship of the 'middle ground' is nonsense. Nothing makes it automatically right. You can't substitute 'middle ground' for a good argument. If you are ever going to show a shred of intellectual integrity you need to do more than tell me to accept things as having truth in them without providing arguments for why.

I'm not going to spell that out in more detail (I've done it before), especially seeing as the odds of any kind of "eureka" type transformation are minimal, and it will just lead to circular arguements, but that's the basic truth. Until both sides meet in the middle it's going to be a deadlocked, cyclical mess. Legal victories at this point just make things worse as they simply encourage increasing numbers of people to ignore the laws and act outside the system. Ending this is going to involve what amounts to a society-wide epiphany by both sides.

The basic truth of it is you're just giving me a load of egotistical hogwash. Further I'll point at racism yet again for a reason not to believe that compromise is necessary.

At any rate, the bottom line is, don't be surprised when you see backlash, the pro-gay movement isn't winning, and never really has been, it just talks a good game of portraying itself that way internally. I suppose to someone who has been doing a victory dance of sorts among like-minded people, it can be a surprise to see the counter attacks, and realize very little has actually changed much.

I really can't wait until your side is a fair target all the time. You're all talk and no substance.[/quote]

Ahh, trolls and de-railing attempts. It makes me wonder why I bother on these forums at times.

See, the very fact that you think there is only two sides and liken anyone that disagress with you to the KKK is exactly your problem, and also demonstrates your perspective is just as immature as the one your argueing about.

The first step is of course to actually learn the other side (for real) and rather than screaming "debunked, nonsense, noooes!" accept that there is a lot of truth there and that the issue is fundementally differant from things like racism, which is why a lot of the people your argueing with also opposed groups like the KKK, and why it works as a flame (and honestly that's how you intended it, which sort of shows you at least understand that it's an insult and out of context enough to upset the other side, given that they are unlikely to say "oh yeah, I support the KKK").

At any rate, the backlash that was noticed, and started this conversation more or less stands on it's own. Accept it or not, the answer has been given. I really can't help anyone beyond that.

 

[Muspelheim]

... and there you go, making my point for me. Everything you said right there pretty much proves the point and explains why the conflict continues, remains deadlocked, and sees an ebb and flow, periods of backlash, etc...

Things won't change until your side admits that there is validity to the other side and it isn't entirely the kind of issue you have convinced yourself it is. Likewise the other side has to do something very similar when it comes to a lot of the faith based arguements. Once that happens, it will be possible to see an actual resolution.

It's a big, bloody shame there isn't any validity to the other side then, isn't it?

Again. Well being of people trumps religious tradition. That is how things should be. Furthermore... The christian faith, and indeed no other faith, nor any of its believers, will take any harm whatsoever once people with differing sexualities have the same rights and status as anyone. They have no reason to not grow up and revise some of their outdated and cruel practices, like indeed many churches have.

 

[Draconalis]

If "no homo gonna make it to heaven" then I guess the entire human race is going to hell.

Cause we're all Homo sapiens... hehe. I get it!

 

[Therumancer]

Someone better teach that kid that we're all Homo Sapiens, really. And if we go for "gay" instead, that we don't see why happy people shouldn't be allowed to heaven either. Or cigarette butts. And so on.

Things won't change until your side admits that there is validity to the other side and it isn't entirely the kind of issue you have convinced yourself it is. Likewise the other side has to do something very similar when it comes to a lot of the faith based arguements. Once that happens, it will be possible to see an actual resolution.

Problem is, not always are opposing views created equal. Yes, I'm going to have the gall to say that being opposed to discrimination and bigotry is inherently superior to supporting it merely by virtue of taking a stand against something disruptive.

But is it discrimination and bigotry? You think it is, what does the other side have to say about it? When you see counter points making cases other than that, the typical reaction is to say they aren't valid, are biased, or have been debunked by the side you support, without much more to it, and not bothering to really consider the inertia to the other side because you don't want to.

See, a big part of the problem is that your fighting something from a self-justifying platform that isn't anywhere near as solid as it seems when it's examined with a level of impartiality that the people standing on that platform are generally incapable of.. which is why there are so many people on the other side, who are just as fanatical (and which stand on their own shaky platform, understand, I don't side with the extreme anti-gay side either).

I'll also say that people are lazy, a big part of what fuels the left wing and a lot of arguements based around tolerance and acceptance is that it's the path of least resistance nowadays. Right now tolerance basically amounts to doing nothing, and being able to talk smack while fundementally sitting around like a lump. Being on the other side takes actual work becauuse you actually have to act to oppose something, and of course there is the issue of danger due to resistance, etc... Your typical person will take the path that involves the least personal investment from them, and it's easy to be tolerant of something that does not directly affect them or their loved ones in any tangible way, right then and there. Being tolerant involves you doing pretty much nothing. This can be applied to a lot of differant things accross a large spectrum.

The issues aren't quite what you think they are, but it's up to you to find that out. I'm not going to engage in another circular arguement with fanatics. Still, ask yourself how often you've actually gone to say a hardcore anti-gay, right wing site without the intent to pick a fight, just listened, and didn't immediatly dismiss everything you heard based on what people on the other side (who you were already inclined to agree with) had to say. Ask some questions that aren't loaded sometime, check sources with people in a non-confrontational fashion. Over a period of time you'll probably surprise yourself. I won't say you'll agree with them, but after knowing what both sides say, and finding the grain of truth in each, your liable to wind up somewhere similar to me... which is the really hard place to be, because you get it from both ends.

 

[Therumancer]

[

I am pointing out that nothing you say here is separating you from racists. A racist could say the same things you do to defend themselves. You lack substance, it's all rhetoric. If anyone can say it, well then it is a worthless argument.

And the thing is, you are mindlessly saying "Accept there is a lot of truth!", but you have been providing 0 truth. It's nonsense. The appropriate time to accept truth is when it has been demonstrated.

And you claim it is fundamentally different? Well you've failed to show that it is.

.[/quote


Err, no. You are under the impression that I am trying to argue an anti-gay point. I am not. All I have said is that there is another side to this with some validity to their positions, while at the same time also pointing out I don't agree with them on anything, being somewhere in the middle.

This by way of explaining why backlash exists, when someone was surprised about it, apparently due to being convinced that this issue was one sided, when it's not.

Go joust with windmills somewhere else, I'm not going to take up argueing the other side just to give you something to do. If your curious, actually go research the other side, of pick a fight on one of their forums.

 

[Stryc9]

I'm afraid toasted cheese sandwiches have already joined the other side.

How did Paula Deen get ahold of Grilled Cheese Virgin Mary and why is it packed in a container with cotton balls?

 

[Therumancer]

... and there you go, making my point for me. Everything you said right there pretty much proves the point and explains why the conflict continues, remains deadlocked, and sees an ebb and flow, periods of backlash, etc...

Things won't change until your side admits that there is validity to the other side and it isn't entirely the kind of issue you have convinced yourself it is. Likewise the other side has to do something very similar when it comes to a lot of the faith based arguements. Once that happens, it will be possible to see an actual resolution.

It's a big, bloody shame there isn't any validity to the other side then, isn't it?

Again. Well being of people trumps religious tradition. That is how things should be. Furthermore... The christian faith, and indeed no other faith, nor any of its believers, will take any harm whatsoever once people with differing sexualities have the same rights and status as anyone. They have no reason to not grow up and revise some of their outdated and cruel practices, like indeed many churches have.

No, it's a big, bloody, shame that your not even willing to consider the other side. Simply saying that something exists doesn't mean that I am here as their defender, especially seeing as I represent a third party acknowledging valid points on both ends of the conflict.

You are correct about religious tradition though, and I myself have pointed out that it's an aspect of this that the anti-gay side needs to drop.

 

[RustyParker]

Being a bisexual individual, (or even pan-sexual, not all too sure what terminology you'd want to use) I can honestly say that I feel people should just be allowed to live how they wish with the people they love, assuming of course that their life style doesn't bring harm to those around them.

Now, I am not sure if it is a fact, but the last time I checked, my attraction to men does not cause anyone any harm. Nor should it. The intolerance from the anti-gay side of this ordeal has a sever threat of becoming violent,their beliefs being too strong for them to even stop and think about the issue in general. To me, it is just pure hate that they spew, nothing better than anything that a KKK meeting would hold. There is no difference there, really. We have a group of individuals who think that, for one thing, a certain group of people are bad for the way they are, feel that they should be punished for it, and also rally around one another in public meetings to express their disdain.

How much longer till we see the steaks and torches? I am not seeing any violent fluctuation from the pro-gay side of the argument. Things could get pretty bad, and what everyone needs to realize is that we are all people. I thought we got through this with the human rights movements in the 1900's, but apparently humanity can only change the direction of their blood lust and anger toward another group of innocent individuals.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all individuals on the anti-gay side of things are devils themselves, I am just stating that their side is far more prone to start violent behavior than the other. I, for one, feel threatened when I hear religious zealots condeming me to hell for the person I am. I never hurt anyone, and I never would.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Really?! I mean... fucking really?!

People are calling this child abuse, indoctrination, vile, I call it fucking retarded. Seriously, in the age old question when did anyone ever know what God's opinion on homosexuals is? Who are they to judge?

No disrespect to peaceful people of faith but it is shit like this experienced in real life that made me reject organised religion. Especially what they are doing to this kid? I am hoping this kid does not understand what he is say because I sure as hell would have at that age. Now I kept this in the off topic section to avoid making this a (flaming argument) strictly religious debate (which it will unfortunately become without a doubt) so what do you gals and guys have to say about this?

First of all, greatest picture ever.

Second of all. WHAT THE JESUS HELL JUST HAPPENED?

Third. Of course we know that a four year old can think for itself and make judgements on people because of what a 2000 year old book written by desert people thought.

I didn't know Ice Cream and Cake people wrote the bible! You learn something new everyday.

You should probably go learn the difference between desert and dessert. Maybe.

Even atheism is a religion of a sort, though one propped by a common disbelief.

Atheism is the opposite of theism. Religion requires theism before then forming hierarchies, leaders, traditions, etc. etc. which make it a religion.

So, no.

Also:

Even atheism is a religion of a sort, though one propped by a common disbelief.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

If the Atheist truly did not believe, he would not bother to deny.

^_^ Prachtett's Golems ftw.

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

indoctrinating a child is just wrong
the kid is to young to even understand what a "homo" is


also no evidence for the existence of heaven(holy book/scripture don't count
as evidence) but that is a whole other issue subject i have no interest in debating

captcha
cloud nine... no interesting comments regarding the captcha

Religion on its own, isn't a bad thing.

Stupid people who use religion as a shield is what sucks.

If there was no religion, morons would find some other following to get behind to voice their bigoted views.

agreed

 

[Something Amyss]

At any rate, the bottom line is, don't be surprised when you see backlash, the pro-gay movement isn't winning, and never really has been, it just talks a good game of portraying itself that way internally. I suppose to someone who has been doing a victory dance of sorts among like-minded people, it can be a surprise to see the counter attacks, and realize very little has actually changed much.

So I'm curious: Are gallup part of the big gay conspiracy, or are the homosexuals just manipulating the data?

anyone else waiting for smart christians to slap the stupid outta their backward brethren?

It'd be nice if Christians were asked (or demanded) to denounce their radicals like Muslims.

See, the mistake you are making there is trying to argue that homophobia is an acceptable view on any level.

It's called "false equivalence." You will see it frequently on this board, on the web, and in politics.

 

[Muspelheim]

No, it's a big, bloody, shame that your not even willing to consider the other side. Simply saying that something exists doesn't mean that I am here as their defender, especially seeing as I represent a third party acknowledging valid points on both ends of the conflict.

You are correct about religious tradition though, and I myself have pointed out that it's an aspect of this that the anti-gay side needs to drop.

Well, I'd be more willing to perhaps consider the other side if any good arguements for letting innocent people suffer for something they cannot help and doesn't hurt anyone. By all means, if you have any, I'd like to hear them. Just as an example, not by a defender but by an observer.

There are two reasons of why I am rather devotedly entrenched on the "pro"-side of things, and that I doubt I'm likely to budge an inch. First of all, their plans to halt the advancement (and likely push them back as well) of LGBT-rights directly affects me. And in an issue that affects you directly it's a bit difficult to remain aloof. I mean, for heaven's sake. These people personally hate me, for no reason whatsoever.

Many churches (and other religious gatherings as well) have revised their policies and traditions on many areas, including LGBT rights. They're still there, and the very core of their faith is still unchanged. I just don't understand why it would be that hard for anyone else to do that.