All About Alignment

kouriichi

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Scow2 said:
kouriichi said:
I personally like alignment, but i find it restricting.

Me and my friends came to the agreement just to put a question mark for my alignment. Its upside is that you never know what will happen with me. Because my alignment is constantly changing based on the situation, i cant use any alignment based items, which balances it out pretty nicely.

I guess you could call him Questionably Chaotic. You never know what hes going to do, until hes already thrown the thief who took his wallet into a well.

"Dam..... i forgot to get my wallet back!" *Jumps in after thief*
That sounds like Chaotic Neutral... Or Bloody Stupid. (Chaotic is about results, not random)

I forgot to put that as one of the other definitions of Neutral (Uncommitted/Stupid Neutral). In fact, the DMG and Players Handbooks say that a character who constantly shifts alignment (or acts in the extreme of both ends of the Alignment spectrum) defaults to Neutral.
Exacty! He cares about the outcome of every situation differently! Hence, Questionably Chaotic.

And i would set him to Neutral, but it feels to much like a lable. They see good and evil, while my character doesnt care for such things. He doesnt belive in law or chaos. Hence, he really isnt even Neutral.

Hes Questionably Chaotic. He does what he does when he does it. Good, evil, law, chaos, none of those effect he judgement. He could save the city. He could doom it. He could say, "I could care less what happens to you, i just like the adventure". Ofcourse, he could drink himself deep into the bottle and hit on the nearest living thing insted, costing dozens of people theyer lives. But hes not doing it because he wants to save people, or because he cares if people die or not. But because he does what he wants.
 

Folio

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If you still can't read it, look up Batman Alignment on Google.

I think George W. Bush Jr. would be Lawful Neutral. If he benefits from it, he'll make a move. If he doesn't see the clue of it, he'll leave it be. But all within the laws and moves of his presidential power he had.
 

SolaceAvatar

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I agree that the good/evil slider is inherently judgmental, and for that matter, not many real people would identify themselves as "evil" even if they where torturing orphans to death; one way or another circumstances demanded it. I think you could make the same sort of slider just based on what tenant actually separates good and evil as far as you're concerned; for example, altruistic/opportunistic.

If I am given 100$, and someone else needs it fairly badly, how will I divide it? A purely altruistic person will give it all away regardless of their need, a purely opportunistic person will keep it regardless, and in the middle, there's room for negotiation.

On the other hand, that also exposes a problem with using even these opposing views as a simple slider, because there's different actions you can take that should have the same level in that slider. If I am neutral in altruistic/opportunistic, would I split the money 50/50, or try to figure out who objectively needs it more?
 

WillItWork

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This was awesome, thank you all, and I posted this to FB.

On the other hand, there are a few technicalities, that got glossed over:
Jews don't care. If it's life or death, you can do just about anything short of killing someone and it's cool.

Kant's imperatives only work if it presupposes universal acceptance (the categorical part). Otherwise, you're handing an axe to the person about to bury it in your skull and he admits it.

Lastly, instead of Singer's circle, what about Rousseau's social contract?
 

randomID

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Falseprophet said:
On his YouTube channel, John Wick addressed this recently, and suggested a possible solution:

The article was pretty good and for the first time, I kind of liked the idea of alignment. But the idea John Wick had is simply awesome. You could also use it to promote deity worship for non cleric/paladin characters.
 

Mufujumon

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Ernil Menegil said:
Another fact that must be pointed out; while Paladins are one of the classes that face the most dillemmas about how they should act in given situations, there is actually a very simple answer given; When in doubt, go for the Good option rather than the Lawful option.
This is a misconception I'd like to address here and now. People tend to think that a Paladin is more closely bound by Good than by Law. This is not the case. A Paladin must act in a way which is both Good and Lawful, or he/she is considered to have breached his/her moral code, losing all Paladin abilities (going off of 3.5ED here, don't know if its changed any). This means that in any situation where Good is opposed to Law, a Paladin is forced to breach his/her alignment one way or the other. It's kind of a cruel thing for a DM to do to a PC, but not impossible.
 

Mufujumon

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Also, to contribute to the request initially posted, here are some characters and their proposed alignments (all pulled from Batman):

The Joker: Chaotic Evil
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Robin: Chaotic Good
Catwoman: Chaotic Neutral
Poison Ivy: Neutral Evil
 

Altorin

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Falseprophet said:
On his YouTube channel, John Wick addressed this recently, and suggested a possible solution:

Interestingly enough, a lot of his "fixing your alignment" sounds like the alignment system in Exalted.

In Exalted (as I went over in my first response), you have 4 alignments: Compassion (Your character's willingness to help others), Conviction (Your character's willingness to act against hardship), Temperance (Your character's willingness to give up the things that they like), and Valor (Your character's willingness to die in a blaze of glory)

Those scores rate between 1 (weak willed) to 5 (ridiculously high willed)

If you act against any of your alignments in a meaningful way (usually in regards to your character's intimacies, or "things the character really cares about"), you roll your alignment in d10s. If you roll a success, you must either take action against whatever is causing the roll, or spend a point of Willpower and gain a point of "Limit".

If you are forced to spend enough Willpower that you accumulate 10 "Limits", you "Limit Break", and are forced to perform some egregious act that's attached to your highest alignment. If the alignment is Compassion, you'll often self-flaggelate yourself, or "take the whip" from weaker people, or brutally murder to protect the innocent (all without your player input). Valor, you'll often go into a berserker rage that can only be calmed when there is NOONE around - you'll just keep fighting everyone you see until they're either dead or everyone is gone.

ALSO, you can spend a point of Willpower when performing an action that exemplifies an alignment (such as charging headfirst into battle exemplifying Valor). If you do, you get to add your score in that alignment to your dicepool.

The only major difference (other then perhaps the "limit break" quality of Exalted's, is the fluid nature of his take on alignment. In Exalted you spend experience points to raise your alignments.
 

Zechnophobe

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Mufujumon said:
Also, to contribute to the request initially posted, here are some characters and their proposed alignments (all pulled from Batman):

The Joker: Chaotic Evil
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Robin: Chaotic Good
Catwoman: Chaotic Neutral
Poison Ivy: Neutral Evil
Two face is a great example of Lawful Evil! He has a few important rules that he follows. Is there anything more lawful than NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL AN ENEMY just because the coin shows the good side? You might think 'but flipping a coin is chaotic!' but really, it is simply a cog in his system, nothing more.
 

Scow2

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kouriichi said:
Exacty! He cares about the outcome of every situation differently! Hence, Questionably Chaotic.

And i would set him to Neutral, but it feels to much like a lable. They see good and evil, while my character doesnt care for such things. He doesnt belive in law or chaos. Hence, he really isnt even Neutral.

Hes Questionably Chaotic. He does what he does when he does it. Good, evil, law, chaos, none of those effect he judgement. He could save the city. He could doom it. He could say, "I could care less what happens to you, i just like the adventure". Ofcourse, he could drink himself deep into the bottle and hit on the nearest living thing insted, costing dozens of people theyer lives. But hes not doing it because he wants to save people, or because he cares if people die or not. But because he does what he wants.
Actually, that's still neutral (Borderline Evil). You don't need to think of alignment to emulate it. Even animals have an alignment(Neutral), though they are incapable of comprehending moral choice.

Mufujumon said:
Ernil Menegil said:
Another fact that must be pointed out; while Paladins are one of the classes that face the most dillemmas about how they should act in given situations, there is actually a very simple answer given; When in doubt, go for the Good option rather than the Lawful option.
This is a misconception I'd like to address here and now. People tend to think that a Paladin is more closely bound by Good than by Law. This is not the case. A Paladin must act in a way which is both Good and Lawful, or he/she is considered to have breached his/her moral code, losing all Paladin abilities (going off of 3.5ED here, don't know if its changed any). This means that in any situation where Good is opposed to Law, a Paladin is forced to breach his/her alignment one way or the other. It's kind of a cruel thing for a DM to do to a PC, but not impossible.
Actually, the Paladin is closer aligned to Good than Law. His code automatically breaks him for commiting an Evil act, but not a Chaotic one. A Lawful character can still commit Chaotic acts, but they just are predisposed toward doing so. And, as outlined in this very article, the very act of Not Commiting an Evil Act Under ANY Circumstance (Restriction On Action = Deontological) automatically fullfills the "Must Act Lawful" requirement of the code. In other words, a Paladin must hold himself to the cause of Good with the steadfastness that makes him Lawful.

The Lawful Alignment is somewhat a misnomer because it has nothing to do with obeying the Law of The Land. As outlined in the article Lawful=Deontological, not Obediant To Authority. A Paladin is under no obligation to follow an unjust Law, nor is he forbidden from breaking a law that would hinder him from doing truly greater good.

If the DM doesn't quite get the point, time to justly break out the inner Rules lawyer and remind him of this: There is no greater Lawful Act than upholding a code bestowed upon you by the Highest of Powers (Either a Greater Diety or the Cause of Good itself) with Steadfast Conviction even in the face of the transient shadows of authority occassionally acquired and bandied about by Mortals, upholding and defending a Code and Cause that has existed before Creation, and must and will hold throughout the aeons, as even the Acts and Lives of the greatest dieties rise and fall in power. So, between obeying a Law, Order, or Superior of questionable integrity(Which it is, if it conflicts with Good), and Upholding the Right, go for Option #2.

The more conviction a player tells the GM this, the more you prove yourself actually capable of playing a Paladin. And, he is being Lawful, as he is "Sticking to His Guns" in the face of the chaotic and fickle whims of the source of the world itself. The greatest battle between Law and Chaos isn't in any of the outer planes in D&D, it's at a small table, between Player's citation of Law, and the fey-like rulings of the GM.
 

Altorin

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Scow2 said:
kouriichi said:
Exacty! He cares about the outcome of every situation differently! Hence, Questionably Chaotic.

And i would set him to Neutral, but it feels to much like a lable. They see good and evil, while my character doesnt care for such things. He doesnt belive in law or chaos. Hence, he really isnt even Neutral.

Hes Questionably Chaotic. He does what he does when he does it. Good, evil, law, chaos, none of those effect he judgement. He could save the city. He could doom it. He could say, "I could care less what happens to you, i just like the adventure". Ofcourse, he could drink himself deep into the bottle and hit on the nearest living thing insted, costing dozens of people theyer lives. But hes not doing it because he wants to save people, or because he cares if people die or not. But because he does what he wants.
Actually, that's still neutral (Borderline Evil). You don't need to think of alignment to emulate it. Even animals have an alignment(Neutral), though they are incapable of comprehending moral choice.

Mufujumon said:
Ernil Menegil said:
Another fact that must be pointed out; while Paladins are one of the classes that face the most dillemmas about how they should act in given situations, there is actually a very simple answer given; When in doubt, go for the Good option rather than the Lawful option.
This is a misconception I'd like to address here and now. People tend to think that a Paladin is more closely bound by Good than by Law. This is not the case. A Paladin must act in a way which is both Good and Lawful, or he/she is considered to have breached his/her moral code, losing all Paladin abilities (going off of 3.5ED here, don't know if its changed any). This means that in any situation where Good is opposed to Law, a Paladin is forced to breach his/her alignment one way or the other. It's kind of a cruel thing for a DM to do to a PC, but not impossible.
Actually, the Paladin is closer aligned to Good than Law. His code automatically breaks him for commiting an Evil act, but not a Chaotic one. A Lawful character can still commit Chaotic acts, but they just are predisposed toward doing so. And, as outlined in this very article, the very act of Not Commiting an Evil Act Under ANY Circumstance (Restriction On Action = Deontological) automatically fullfills the "Must Act Lawful" requirement of the code. In other words, a Paladin must hold himself to the cause of Good with the steadfastness that makes him Lawful.

The Lawful Alignment is somewhat a misnomer because it has nothing to do with obeying the Law of The Land. As outlined in the article Lawful=Deontological, not Obediant To Authority. A Paladin is under no obligation to follow an unjust Law, nor is he forbidden from breaking a law that would hinder him from doing truly greater good.

If the DM doesn't quite get the point, time to justly break out the inner Rules lawyer and remind him of this: There is no greater Lawful Act than upholding a code bestowed upon you by the Highest of Powers (Either a Greater Diety or the Cause of Good itself) with Steadfast Conviction even in the face of the transient shadows of authority occassionally acquired and bandied about by Mortals, upholding and defending a Code and Cause that has existed before Creation, and must and will hold throughout the aeons, as even the Acts and Lives of the greatest dieties rise and fall in power. So, between obeying a Law, Order, or Superior of questionable integrity(Which it is, if it conflicts with Good), and Upholding the Right, go for Option #2.

The more conviction a player tells the GM this, the more you prove yourself actually capable of playing a Paladin. And, he is being Lawful, as he is "Sticking to His Guns" in the face of the chaotic and fickle whims of the source of the world itself. The greatest battle between Law and Chaos isn't in any of the outer planes in D&D, it's at a small table, between Player's citation of Law, and the fey-like rulings of the GM.
Following your code doesn't give you carte blanche against all chaotic acts though. Enough chaotic acts, and your alignment risks shifting to neutral good, at which point no amount of atonement will help you until you rectify that, and that can be entirely Chaotic Good actions that cause that change.
 

Scow2

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Altorin said:
Following your code doesn't give you carte blanche against all chaotic acts though. Enough chaotic acts, and your alignment risks shifting to neutral good, at which point no amount of atonement will help you until you rectify that, and that can be entirely Chaotic Good actions that cause that change.
Correct. However, the protection the code offers against itself (Committing the Chaotic act is the Most Lawful thing you can do) should be more than enough to have it get through most "To be Lawful or To Be Good" decisions through consistently going "Good".

When given the choice between having to Act against Your Alignment (Choose a Chaotic Good act) versus Acting Against your Alignment, Breaking your Code Through Commiting an Evil Act, and Acting Against your Alignment by Breaking your Code Through Commiting and Evil Act (By committing the Lawful MildlyEvil act required instead), the choice between which course of action is demanded by the code becomes VERY clear. A true Paladin can generally understand what the best course of action is.
 

JMeganSnow

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You misquoted Galt's Oath from Atlas Shrugged, by the way. It's "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." not "man". But you did get it correct that from the perspective of conventional morality, Objectivists are double-neutral.

A much better article than the blurb would seem to indicate.
 

theklng

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Xzi said:


That's pretty much me in a nutshell.

I'd rather not take the time to define the alignments of historical characters, fiction or real, sorry. But I'm sure Hitler would be an easy diagnoses for most people.
i think hitler would be closer to you than you'd think...

i am apparently somewhere between chaotic neutral and evil.
 

Jenx

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Man as much as I love the Planescape campaign setting, my opinion has always been the same - the alignment system should be dragged to the back of the shed and shot in the head. It brings almost nothing of value to a game aside from wasting hours on arguments about what's Lawful Good and what isn't.
 

Towels

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Zechnophobe said:
Mufujumon said:
Also, to contribute to the request initially posted, here are some characters and their proposed alignments (all pulled from Batman):

The Joker: Chaotic Evil
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Robin: Chaotic Good
Catwoman: Chaotic Neutral
Poison Ivy: Neutral Evil
Two face is a great example of Lawful Evil! He has a few important rules that he follows. Is there anything more lawful than NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL AN ENEMY just because the coin shows the good side? You might think 'but flipping a coin is chaotic!' but really, it is simply a cog in his system, nothing more.
That's a good distinction between "Choatic" and "Random." One could also argue that flipping a coin is Nuetral instead of Choatic because statistically "random" means equal probability of all possible results. (Statisticians generally agree that flipping a coin has Random results.) However, that's missing the point entirely: Morality describes Why, not How. I think many people confuse "Choatic" as being random/irrational/unpredictable behavior, and not reasoned "Consequentialist" behavior.

Two-Face is definately not a consequentialist, and his coin is a deontological tool.
However, I'm still not clear if he could be considered Evil or Neutral. Sure, some of his actions seem self-serving on the surface like robbing banks, but from watching The Dark Knight or the 90s Cartoons, his targets were other criminals who need to pay for their actions.

Is his revenge totally self-serving (Evil) or mutually benificial (Nuetral)?
 

Kiju

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Huh, very informative...even if I'd mostly thought about things like that myself. Still, it's kinda neat to see them in a more educated form. I'd never done the actual research for it, but a lot of my views were explained here. After all, how can one say someone is evil if his people think that he's doing something for the greater good?

In my opinion, one of the few people like that would be Napoleon. He wanted power, but he wanted it for his people, his country. He thought that France needed to grow powerful and strong, so that she could have more land. In a way, I think that he had good intentions...but only for his people. His moral circle encompassed his country and it's populace, but no one else. Some might say he was evil for being power-hungry and ruthless in battle...but I think he only did it out of necessity. Adolph Hitler is another example of that, if you exclude his mass genocide...
 

Callate

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This interpretation of the system is workable- and thoughtful- but I find it both a bit over-complicated and both broad and narrow in some ways that I think would frustrate me.

A lawful good character isn't necessarily inclined to abide by long-standing laws that provide for the enslavement or sacrifice of sentient creatures. And I can imagine a chaotic good barbarian who, while seeming completely without respect for authority or discipline, still has a deep respect for the traditions of his native people.

More to the point, some of the most interesting character interactions come from characters who, while similarly aligned, come into conflict through their interpretations of those alignments, or those of allegedly stress-causing conflicts of alignment who find common ground.

I once envisioned a situation in which a member of a party sprains his ankle as they race along the floor of a pit towards the hanging rope from which they can make their escape. The party is pursued by a monster against whom they have less than a 1-in-2 chance of prevailing. The Neutral character yells, "Look, he's done for! We need to get out of here while he's buying us time!" The Lawful Good character concurs: "The good of the party has to come first. I'm sorry he fell, but what good will come of all of us dying?" The Chaotic Good character replies: "Screw that, we're not leaving him!"- and cuts the rope.

I tend to view the Lawful-to-Chaotic axis as more Collective vs. Individual. The Lawful character doesn't necessarily respect local laws (in many versions of AD&D, there were Lawful rogues, thieves, and assassins), but they believe there are probably good reasons that laws, rules, and traditions are in place, that the collective wisdom usually overrules that of the individual, and while they might choose, say, to put the rules of the Guild above the laws those stodgy merchants lobby for, they still might believe there were reasons those rules were put into place. It makes sense in this context for Paladins to be Lawful Good because following the ancient traditions of their order gives them a sense of peace and assurance that the rightness of their action is guided and backed up by long-held wisdom. But even where those traditions didn't provide guidance, the Lawful character would be wondering about what others would make of his actions, if others of his caste or community would do the same in his stead.

Conversely, the Chaotic character is more likely to think of collective wisdom as most likely to come to decisions that are "good enough" at best, and if he comes up with what seems like a good idea despite going against the way things have been done for years, he's probably not going to spend a lot of time wondering why once the idea has cleared his own personal standard. The chaotic is more likely to feel that individual people have worth, but crowds of people quickly become mobs. Just because it worked yesterday doesn't mean it should be done that way tomorrow; what "works" ought to be subject to constant revision.

If the characters aren't leaders, the Lawful one will crave competent leadership; the Chaotic one is going to want proof of that leader's competence every step of the way, if not outright test it.

Neutral characters in the Law-to-Chaos spectrum I largely think of as the "go-along-get-along" types. If the local community is relgious, why of course they're a member- they just never seem to show up for services. They're glad the guard is there when he's protecting their shop, but resentful when he shows up to collect overdue taxes. Yes, it's great that the neighborhood committee expects certain standards to- Oh, I see. I'll get the lawnmower out.

"Good" and "Evil" I tend to think of on a much simpler scale: for what reasons will I harm or kill?

Good: I will fight the lizardmen because their aggression threatens the innocent people of our village!

Neutral: I will fight the lizardmen because they might have good loot I can hock!

Evil: I will fight the lizardmen because I like how the little ones "pop" when you set them on fire!

Now to some extent, it has to be recognized that this also comes down to the particulars of the individual and their culture, nature, and imagination. One "good" person could be a pacifist, another a soldier. One could be a hunter providing for his people, another could be a vegan who would consider harming an animal evil. And, yes, one "good" person could find torture reasonable in an extreme situation, another believe it could never be morally justifiable, and a third deplore it because the information it might reveal is unreliable and it cuts off other options.

A lot of campaigns I've been in define good and evil largely on a personal level. A few things, like dragons or celestial/infernal creatures might be inherently good or evil. But other things could be relative- a cleric of a religion could get a positive reading when casting "detect evil" on a cleric of an opposing religion, even though both religions could be considered "good"- a god of agriculture and harvest butting up against a god of sylvan wilderness, for example.
 

tetron

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The main thing I think people need to remember about alignment is that

1:Alignment is open to interpretation. You could be lawful in the sense that you do what is generally socially acceptable to do. Or you could be lawful in that you are devoted to an ideal, belief, code, or practice. For instance I could have a monk who drinks, constantly gets into barfights, steals, and is a general ornery douchebag. Yet he could still be lawful because of his devotion to his martial arts studies.(This is why you're unable to take levels in monk once you've leveled another class unless it says otherwise in the other classes description)

2:Alignments can change. A character can all too easily go from being lawful good to chaotic evil because of events that change around him or even the underhanded trickery of evil people.

3:There can be an actual and a perceived alignment. This refers to an evil deed for good ends, such as torture to save a town. Your character is doing something with good intent so whether it's evil or not it's still a good action, but others will perceive it as an evil action. So someone could be lawful good and because of the things they do people could consider them lawful evil.

4: Being in service to a deity can change how alignment works. Once upon a time I played a divine seeker, basically a rogue who works for a deity. My character was lawful good but a good number of people saw me as chaotic evil. I bore no symbols of my deity, went to none of his temples, and only once did my character ever pray to the deity. I lied, cheated, stole, sabotaged, tricked, and murdered in the service of my lawful good deity. I once entered a cult, and had to do all the rituals that came with it.
I sacrificed one of the fellow patrons of my deity just so I could enter the upper ranks of this cult, and then kill every last one of them from the top down. Was it evil of me to kill a fellow patron of my deity ? No, why ? Because I didn't actually murder them, they died in service to our deity. The person I killed could have wielded a sword and tried killing all of the cult members, and they would have failed. Thousands of good pious lives could have been lost to this cult, but instead only one was. In taking down that cult I performed actions to easily make me chaotic evil, but through it all I was lawful good.

5:Neutral can come in different flavors. While some people may think neutral is "meh" neutral, such as is talked about in this article. Neutral can mean much more than that. An alignment few people are familiar with is true neutral(aggressive). Wherein the character acts not for himself but for the good of everyone, and in doing so opposes both good and evil. Characters like these usually see good and evil as two sides of the same coin, and reason that all conflict is borne of these two sides being unable to coexist. The solution ? The end of both good and evil. In other words a neutral character who believes that neutral is the way to go. There can also be passive neutral characters, ones who don't recognize good or evil, such as healers who treat both sides. There can be characters who are neutral because they perform as many good deeds as they do evil, such as someone who kills people for a living but uses the money to improve the wellbeing of everyone he encounters.