Here's what you do. Play the game first, and then balance what you know about the kid's mentality with the content in the game. For instance, outside of a couple cutscenes, there really isn't anything disturbing or completely evil in Mass Effect. The general gameplay isn't all that bad. So, after coming to that conclusion, I allow my brother to watch me play, but make sure he isn't in the room when I play it. Or, in the case of Halo, will allow him to play, because there doesn't seem to be anything warranting an M rating in the multiplayer modes.
Tl;dr, play the games, then decide. Don't just deny all M games (especially the older ones), but don't just ignore them, either. Play the game, and decide from there.
My parents would never hesitate to purchase me anything with fake violence in it. Probably because they trusted that I wasn't mentally handicapped or a moron and knew the difference between fiction and reality.
I think its kind of sad that some of you have that much contempt for strangers and the intelligence of their children.
The Media blames retail stores and game developers, but the ones really at fault are the parents for buying their crazed children games they shouldn't be playing. If a parent buys a child a mature game, whats the point have having the rating there?
I'm not saying that games should be banned or heavily restricted, otherwise we'd end up with "you do not talk about game club". The issue lies with parents letting young children play violent games. Just because one or two people go "oh, I turned out fine", doesn't mean that we should just let all children play violent games unquestioned; what happens to one person isn't a perfect template for everyone else.
Truth. However the opposite does apply, just because someone played a violent game as a child and at some later point in there life snapped should by no means, mean no child should be let within 20 feet of such a game.
The issue is not parents letting young children play violent games, but rather parents not giving enough of a damn to educate themselves on what is included in the game and what the ratings mean.
Oh and to the one person I just know will come out with something along the lines of "Well yes but that's not an easy thing to do." Most game shops will have a description of the ratings (in fact they need to by law in some places)and a quick Google search will turn up countless reviews of the game in general not including the sites made specifically to give parents info on games. They could even play the demo/rent the game overnight.
I'm with the 'play it first' view on this. If you have a child/young sibling/etc then just buy the game for yourself, enjoy it hopefully, and if it turns out to be too much, don't give it to them. Done
But yeah, shop assistants should have more control over what goes on, because not everybody's interested in 'playing it first' or has the time to do this. I mean if I had to test out Gears of War 2 for somebody I'd quite gladly give it a shot, despite the fact that I'm god-awful at FPSs on a console (or almost anything on a console, never having owned one). I'd say that Halo's an okay game for a 13 year old, because the sum total of its (player-caused) gore is blue or violet in colour, the graphics aren't advanced enough to look mind-affectingly realistic, and the enemies are quite distinctly non-human, and the dialogue's clean. It's also quite straightforward story-wise, without much emphasis on the morality of wiping out an entire enemy race. Dawn of War, which has the same rating, is a bit higher up the ladder. There's still no swearing, but it's a LOT more violent, involving a ridiculous amount of crimson explosions (especially when the big monsters get busted out, the Nightbringer and Avatar in particular).
But looking at a few of the 8-10 18-rated games I own. Lessee. DOOM 3 would probably have a young (as in sub-12) child whimpering and looking under his bed for imps, but a teenager could handle it easily. Prey's pretty sweary at times (which can be disabled), but not really mind-affecting unless you have motion sickness or something. (Well, I guess except for
the bit where Enisi dies. That's pretty gory.)
The Suffering, on the other hand, has enemies based on methods of execution, oodles of horror, gore (obviously) and is set in a high security death row prison, with a main character who apparently killed his family. (I've not finished the game yet: don't spoil it!) FEAR involves killing people in beautiful slow-motion, eliciting ridiculous amounts of blood from their ragdoll-tumbling corpses as you hammer shotgun blasts into their oh-so-vulnerable bodies... and *then* makes you wet yourself, if you're vulnerable to cheap-shot jump scares. If I had a <14 year old child/sibling I'd probably play Doom 3 *with* them, and Prey with the profanity off, but I likely wouldn't let them near the other two. So it's rather subjective really. And that's without mentioning Manhunt. I've not played it, but even I think that's twisted
*All of which I acquired after becoming 18, apart from the original Unreal Tournament. Although this is because my mother doesn't allow me to play computer games and I didn't get a high quality laptop till after my 18th, the one I had for the previous year being in a bad state. I'm 19 now and considerably more clued-up on the ins and outs of my beloved first person shooters, with my own secret stash of games.
I played on the first Gears of War (and at that time my younger brother was about 8 years old). I know there's no way on earth my parents would buy that for him, or if I had a kid that age, I'd never buy it for him/her.
Pester-power can be a strong weapon against parents not caving to their child's every whim.
By the way, I really hope that the mother didn't buy the game for that kid...
I wasn't even allowed fighting games when I was young, let alone one rated over my age, if, somehow i have kids I'll apply the same rules, when in the house no fighting games or games over their age limit, I may not agree with the ESRB ratings for some, OK most games, but I'm told when you have kids of your own you become more protective, shame most parents think most games are still for kids.
Oh you think the 8 year old getting gears 2 is bad I saw a parent bring a copy of GTA:SA to a birthday party as a present (wasn't wrapped) for a 6 year old, I almost asked them if they knew what the game rating was, but couldn't be bothered in the end. Wonder what the birthday boys parents thought of that present
Er, Per your avatar....I beg to differ. You rose to power through duplicitous means, ordered the extinition of the Jedi, were a Sith Lord who manipulated a confused Anakin, enslaved Wookies, green lighted the contruction of not 1 but 2 Death Stars...the list goes on and on man.
I'd like to have a talk with your parents myself..
Er, Per your avatar....I beg to differ. You rose to power through duplicitous means, ordered the extinition of the Jedi, were a Sith Lord who manipulated a confused Anakin, enslaved Wookies, green lighted the contruction of not 1 but 2 Death Stars...the list goes on and on man.
I'd like to have a talk with your parents myself..
I was taking a look through Gamestation today and yes, and 8-year old kid is telling his mum to buy Gears of War 2 for him. It's got a fricking 18 rating on it! I didn't hang about for the conclusion of whether the mother would give a yes or no (there certainly wasn't an immediate no), but given the influence of pester power there must exist a fair number of parents who would buy it for their children.
What came to my mind is just how does that kid know he wants that game? It's not exactly pretty box art for someone that young, so I'm guessing he probably played the first one. Wait, what?
Perhaps I'm assuming too much at this point, but considering how much the press bitches about this, they might have a bit of weight behind them here.
No, games do not need toning down. What needs to happen is that the parents have to be told what potential content there is within games, and what the ratings mean. I've heard some parents actually believe that the numbers refer to the difficulty of the games. Someone smack some sense into them!
I dont see whats wrong with that to be honest, i mean enough little girls play with toy slags like barbie but that doesnt mean there going to go and get knocked up and when i was little i would play with toy guns and things as would many yound boys. I dont see the differance between a plastic replica and a compuer generated replica?
Well, I wouldn't say this is the greatest example ever. Barbies, baby dolls, etc. foster gender stereotypes and reinforce the concept that women need to wear 20lbs of makeup, worry about their looks, and spend the rest of their lives in the kitchen. Meanwhile boys are given the construction toys, the gun toys, etc.
Amnestic said:
Imitation Saccharin said:
TsunamiWombat said:
You know what solves pester power? Hit to the head.
happened to me once I was at gamestop and a little girl about the age of 6 maybe ypunger picked up GTA (i dont know which version) and told her mom that she wanted it.
Yeah, its the parents fault and blah blah... But why do 8 year olds and other well-underage kids want games like this? I mean, is this a sign that the marketing for these titles is screwy? What is it about killing and chainsaws that these kids are attracted to before even playing the game?
there is a chance that the kid in the story was a hyperactive little crotch-dropping like the one I saw, and just decided that he wanted Gears of War 2 on a complete impulse.
I think another issue here is that a disturbing number of parents aren't even aware that games have ratings. They just assume that games are for kids. Take a story I have, and tell pretty often to prove my point on the subject. I was at Wal-Mart to pick up some things and decided to browse the electronics while I was there. There was a kid who looked about eight or so and he wanted God of War. So his mom called the employee over and pointed to God of War. The employee said "Er...is this for him, ma'am? Because I'd really suggest not getting it for him..." Her son started pitching a fit and she said "Oh just get it already" in a very stuck-up 'I'm better than you because you work at Wal-Mart and I have a severe case of Richbitchitis' tone. He said "It is rated M, for 17 and up. It is like the game version of the R rating." She said "Oh bullshit. It is just a video game. It is a toy for children, it can't be THAT bad." He said "Well, I have it and it contains a lot of violence and gore, as well as sex and nudity." She says "I don't believe you. It is a VIDEO GAME! They wouldn't put that stuff in it, it is supposed to be for kids. Now give me the goddamn game or I'm going to get a manager." The employee said "Ma'am, it is called 'God of War,' do you honestly think it is for children?" At which point she proceeded to cuss him out and demanded a manager. I left at this point because if I had to listen to this condescending, stuck-up, ignorant ***** and her crying banshee of a child any longer I would have had the urge to find a box cutter and end my life.
My point is that many parents still have this idea that video game = child's toy, and that there isn't even a rating system. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that many of the anti-game activists were like this woman: Didn't care or pay attention to what they were buying their child, then looks to where they can point fingers after they walk in on Little Timmy banging hookers in his truck in GTA. God forbid that parents take the blame and start to actually fucking parent their children instead of demanding the government slam down the ban hammer.
Personally, this sort of thing disgusts me. When this sort of thing happens, I feel like an immature little kid, regardless of whether or not I was directly involved in the situation or not. This is because it makes the entire industry seem illegitimate to me. If a parent is going to entertain the thought of allowing their 6 year old child (regardless of gender, girls can be murderers too, trust me...I know...)to play a game like GTA, that is just irresponsible. The problem is, as is displayed in raven's comment, a lot of parents don't know that video games aren't just for kids anymore, and in fact, the of-age gamer actually outnumbers those of us who still need a consenting(key word here kids, again, trust me)adult to buy games over the Teen rating. If it were me who were in the Wal-Mart, I would probably have gone over, tried to calm the woman down, and explain the reality of the games content and story line to her, though that would likely not have made any significant change, considering that this was explained to her, and she didn't believe the guy. And...I'm sorry...didn't BELIEVE HIM!?!?! THOSE PEOPLE ARE THERE FOR THAT EXACT REASON, TO HELP YOU!! If you are going to ask for someone's opinion, and then disregard it, just skip the middle man and buy the product. Don't impose your ignorance on us...
Personally, this sort of thing disgusts me. When this sort of thing happens, I feel like an immature little kid, regardless of whether or not I was directly involved in the situation or not. This is because it makes the entire industry seem illegitimate to me. If a parent is going to entertain the thought of allowing their 6 year old child (regardless of gender, girls can be murderers too, trust me...I know...)to play a game like GTA, that is just irresponsible. The problem is, as is displayed in raven's comment, a lot of parents don't know that video games aren't just for kids anymore, and in fact, the of-age gamer actually outnumbers those of us who still need a consenting(key word here kids, again, trust me)adult to buy games over the Teen rating. If it were me who were in the Wal-Mart, I would probably have gone over, tried to calm the woman down, and explain the reality of the games content and story line to her, though that would likely not have made any significant change, considering that this was explained to her, and she didn't believe the guy. And...I sorry...didn't BELIEVE HIM!?!?! THOSE PEOPLE ARE THERE FOR THAT EXACT REASON, TO HELP YOU!! If you are going to ask for someone's opinion, and then disregard it, just skip the middle man and buy the product. Don't impose your ignorance on us...
Agreed. I get extremely annoyed when I see or hear that type of thing as well. I have seen a few kids constantly nag their parents or such for games like GTA at such a young age. How do they even hear about the games or why they even care is beyond me, but the thing is a few of those parents still buy the game for their kids due to not knowing what's inside the game (or caring in the first place, for that matter).
As for the situation in the Wal-Mart, sadly there's nothing anyone could have really done. A lot of people are that ignorant to that extent and believe video games are for children. I hope that the manager came and knocked some sense into her, or refused to allow the purchase at the very least. However, I'm pretty sure the manager would have been "Just let her buy the game..." type of response.
Ah well, the worker tried the best he could. I give him props for that.
The ESRB needs to get employees who sell video games to ask who the games are for, and their age. Then they need to prevent sales for underage children.
Personally, this sort of thing disgusts me. When this sort of thing happens, I feel like an immature little kid, regardless of whether or not I was directly involved in the situation or not. This is because it makes the entire industry seem illegitimate to me. If a parent is going to entertain the thought of allowing their 6 year old child (regardless of gender, girls can be murderers too, trust me...I know...)to play a game like GTA, that is just irresponsible. The problem is, as is displayed in raven's comment, a lot of parents don't know that video games aren't just for kids anymore, and in fact, the of-age gamer actually outnumbers those of us who still need a consenting(key word here kids, again, trust me)adult to buy games over the Teen rating. If it were me who were in the Wal-Mart, I would probably have gone over, tried to calm the woman down, and explain the reality of the games content and story line to her, though that would likely not have made any significant change, considering that this was explained to her, and she didn't believe the guy. And...I sorry...didn't BELIEVE HIM!?!?! THOSE PEOPLE ARE THERE FOR THAT EXACT REASON, TO HELP YOU!! If you are going to ask for someone's opinion, and then disregard it, just skip the middle man and buy the product. Don't impose your ignorance on us...
Agreed. I get extremely annoyed when I see or hear that type of thing as well. I have seen a few kids constantly nag their parents or such for games like GTA at such a young age. How do they even hear about the games or why they even care is beyond me, but the thing is a few of those parents still buy the game for their kids due to not knowing what's inside the game (or caring in the first place, for that matter).
As for the situation in the Wal-Mart, sadly there's nothing anyone could have really done. A lot of people are that ignorant to that extent and believe video games are for children. I hope that the manager came and knocked some sense into her, or refused to allow the purchase at the very least. However, I'm pretty sure the manager would have been "Just let her buy the game..." type of response.
Ah well, the worker tried the best he could. I give him props for that.
You're absolutely correct, but for some reason it just really puts me off when I see this sort of thing. I mean, these are the people that grow up to spend months/years of their lives in a juvenile detention center/prison and for more than one of these kids, it wasn't their fault. I'm not saying that children are inevitably going to become psychopathic murderers impersonating their parents as they commit the murders (recently watched psycho, sorry), but for a lot of children at that age, it becomes more difficult for the child in question to differentiate between reality and the alternate existence present in whatever game they're playing. This is the reason that the ERSB was created, to prevent this sort of ignorance that has become oh so common in today's society. And I know that nothing could really have been done in the Wal-Mart situation, but I would likely have gone against my better judgment and said something. Maybe I like confrontation, that is definitely a possibility, but my excuse is that if no one does anything (and thank God the employee did, tremendous amounts of respect coming at YOU), this part of the story goes unnoticed and the blame is instantly shifted to the video game industry, which is beyond unfair (I should really be saying unequal here). This IS why anti-video game organizations hold as much power as they do, and though it was undoubtedly not the smartest decision, I would probably have attempted some sort of persuasive tactic in order to attempt to get her to understand at least a little more of what she was exposing her child to.
Some say that the reason the ERSB is going unnoticed is because parents are refusing to do that which they are designed for: parent. And in some (possibly even most, I don't know) cases, this is an unfortunate truth. Some parents are adopting the same ideology as the woman in the Wal-Mart and are expecting games to act as a babysitter for their child. Sadly, this may never end, we can only hope that those who still see the industry as the interest of mere children, to mature to the idea just a little more, and hopefully get some common sense in the process.
Ice Storm, I agree with you completely, and in your position, I would probably do and say the same thing, but to me, this sort of thing it just...gets under my skin for some reason...anyway, I thank you for your time and your response...
Speaking from the point of view of someone whose parents actually are intelligent, it's not that hard to see the M rating on a game. It's on the back and front, and the back details the content of the game. If you, as a parent, don't have the tiny attention span required to read this, then it's your own fault if your kid gets corrupted.
I played GTA IV online with my brother once or twice. At one point an obviously 9 year old kid came on chat and my brother began giving him a hard time. "Excuse me young man, aren't you a minor? This is an M rated game." We had already decided to give up on the game for the evening and so we announced that we were leaving to avoid doing damage to the development of a child.
I witnessed a mother refusing to buy GTA IV for her 10 year old, but only because he already had San Andreas and she wasn't going to buy him the same game again. Of the two guys behind the counter, one of them looked really depressed and shared an eye-roll with me. The other one, the twitchy career FPSer walked away complaining about the lost sale. I haven't made eye contact with that guy since. (Plus he tried to get the cute girl who works there fired because she's only a casual gamer.)
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