An article from a former sjw woman and a gamer.

[God'sFist]

I would love to see that too. When I say the feminist "crowd" what I really mean is essentially those people who write those labels and those that agree with said unnecessary labels and try to enforce them.

Well, you might try actively describing them, rather than relying on the nebulous term "feminist crowd." To a lot of people with a boner for anti-feminism, it means one thing. To me, it's just confusing, as I'm trying to figure out which crowd. It's one of the funny little things that most of the anti-feminist crowds are far more homogenous than the group they're trying to paint with a single brush. Not all, not completely, but enough.

But back to the point: when you actually get descriptive, the "feminist" part pretty much becomes superfluous.

The same's true with SJW, a term which has basically come to mean "people who don't agree with me." "SJW" is tossed around the internet like the word "******" is in an online game. The people who use it likely don't even care whether you are a homosexual male, they simply know it's a word that means something negative. Which makes the use fairly ironic, because many (not all, or even necessarily most) of the people using the term are the same ones who object to the use of words like "sexism," claiming they're a way to shut down arguments or offensive or whatever.

Or, for example, don't want to be pegged as MRAs, dudebros, misogynists, or fedoraphiles.

Before anyone jumps me, I'll say what I've said several times of late: I am not immune to the effect, nor am I perfect. I have attempted to be aware of it, though, and to not fall victim to it (and when I do, to attempt to rectify the behaviour). I am not some shining paragon of virtue. But I am trying not to go "STFU and go back to your man-cave, you MRA scum!" or whatever. It's counterproductive.

I know you had a large chat with Bloated Guppy, but I wanted to be specific about that part.

well the reason I don't describe more is because that's the only thing you can latch onto for the particular people I'm describing. I know that feminism is nebulous term almost to the point its unusable. But yeah when people start labeling themselves feminists and do things that are "feminist" then that makes them a feminist but if other "feminists" say that's not feminism then you don't have a clue who to believe and it just winds up in absolute confusion. I try to do the same as you when I talk about this stuff and honestly wish we as a gamer demographic weren't so split down the middle on the issue. But yeah if they actually had some kind of label that made some kind of sense that no one argue with I would use that but sadly no such term exists to my knowledge.

 

[Timmaaaah]

I think the entire SJW label is taking crap way too far. It's pointless. If you're sick of people making arguments about things that they believe in then get off the goddamn forums. Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down.

 

[Timmaaaah]

Well she's using the term SJW at all, a stupid term used by stupid people, so clearly she's a moron. Not much else to say really.

That doesnt seem very logical at all. Its actually to help to distinguish between a zealot and someone who tries to actually help people. Like warrior and bully for example. So I disagree with your protestation that she is moron because she uses a term to describe the people who colloquially best fit the description.

The problem with the SJW label is that idiots apply it to anyone they feel like. If they're losing an argument about something that remotely relates to social issues then they just brand them and SJW and go about their day. And something you have to realise about zealots - Zealots will never let go of their beliefs because they live on faith (the denial of observation). Zealots believe that they are helping people. Some of them are.

The people that are labelled as an "SJW" aren't zealots at all. They're not radicals. They're just people expressing their opinions and a bunch of dickheads are made uncomfortable by some of the inherent truths that come from it. Granted, some of them are kinda dumb and are unable to back up their beliefs but that's just because they're.. Well... Dumb. Stupid people labelling other stupid people. But sometimes idiots label people that are actually forming coherent, well informed arguments about what they believe and then you get a bunch of dickheads on forums attacking someone with snide pissy comments instead of discussing the topic with reason.

The entire SJW label is just pointless. There are worse things out there to label than people who believe in equality. Maybe right now some people are kinda dumb and say dumb things that they really back up (with the best of intentions) but they're not going to get smarter by a bunch of dickheads attacking them. They'll grow if people just chill out and leave them be. This whole thing is just a pissing contest so that a bunch of jackasses can feel all nice and superior.

There's an old saying; arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good you are, the pigeon is still just going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

Anyone know who said that?

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Well she's using the term SJW at all, a stupid term used by stupid people, so clearly she's a moron. Not much else to say really.

That doesnt seem very logical at all. Its actually to help to distinguish between a zealot and someone who tries to actually help people. Like warrior and bully for example. So I disagree with your protestation that she is moron because she uses a term to describe the people who colloquially best fit the description.

I'm all for calling people who go too far out, but to be honest the term SJW has just been abused too much. I have little doubt that many people honestly reserve it for extremists, but there are just too many people out there who throw it at anyone who shows the slightest interest in the portrayal of women/PoC/LGBT characters in gaming. The phrase just has too much baggage and now whenever someone sees it, they have to play a guessing game to see if it's being used properly or not, and because of bad experiences, a lot of people don't think it is being used properly, if it ever was.

i think the term is fitting but i must say, theres some truth in what you are saying, after these recent evens some people have gone paranoid to the point where they call pandering to simple artistic choices creators make with no intent to pander anybody

i myself get confused soemtimes, which is why i reserve my sjw calling for when i know for sure somebody is one

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

I think the entire SJW label is taking crap way too far. It's pointless. If you're sick of people making arguments about things that they believe in then get off the goddamn forums. Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down.

hey, these people can talk about diversity the entire day, i dont mind, as long as they dont insult, shame or harass devs and gamers

if they can keep their agendas out of gaming, i personally wont have a problem with them, and if they want more inclusive games, just make em, noone is stopping them

 

[veloper]

Whatever you think of the SJW label, what's for sure is that a sensible person won't ever call herself one. The article is therefore suspect.

The "warrior" part alone is funny since what we're talking about is extreme slacktivism at best and more commonly, a form of trolling the internet. It's a humorous derogatory term.

I wouldn't call Anita a SJW, because she's not a troll and she's not bananas either.
Only the most ludicrous stuff is SJW and the purpose of that is to get a rise out of clueless people.

 

[RICHIERICAN]

I don't how others feel but I'm getting gamergate Fatigue!! The childish behavior at times from both sides is very annoying the threats from both sides is uncalled for there no place for that!! I just want to play my games and be happy!!! Also is there anyway the mods can make a gamergate sticky thread so people wouldn't have make threads of the same topic??

 

[Silvanus]

if they can keep their agendas out of gaming, i personally wont have a problem with them

By "keeping their agendas out of gaming", what do you mean, exactly?

and if they want more inclusive games, just make em, noone is stopping them

There's no reason somebody should have to become a game developer in order to put forward criticism. Criticism is what this board is here for; it's the reason for reviewers.

People can criticise art without dedicating their lives to becoming artists. People can criticise politicians without having to join a party, run a campaign, become elected, and serve a term first. People can criticise the weather without having to become weather-deities. Criticism has no pre-requisites, apart from thought.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if they can keep their agendas out of gaming, i personally wont have a problem with them

By "keeping their agendas out of gaming", what do you mean, exactly?

for starters, none of this

or anita and her lying, and devs getting blacklisted, or being accused of false things

and if they want more inclusive games, just make em, noone is stopping them

There's no reason somebody should have to become a game developer in order to put forward criticism. Criticism is what this board is here for; it's the reason for reviewers.

a game is not worse just bacause is racist or sexist, you can express your opinion about those topics all you want, but its not valid criticism at the end of the day

People can criticise art without dedicating their lives to becoming artists. People can criticise politicians without having to join a party, run a campaign, become elected, and serve a term first. People can criticise the weather without having to become weather-deities. Criticism has no pre-requisites, apart from thought.

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Why would there be any risk in that? If you wanted games with less diversity or male protagonists, you could just make them! Everyone would be happily playing the games of their own creation, and we'd have no need for developers or publishers any more!

And why stop there?

Unhappy with that film? Don't criticize it, make the film you want to see!
Unhappy with your car? Don't criticize it, make the car you want to drive!
Unhappy with your country's military industrial complex? Don't criticize it, become the general of an upstart militia and form your own military industrial complex!

 

[Silvanus]

for starters, none of this

Spoiler: Articles Image.

or anita and her lying, and devs getting blacklisted, or being accused of false things

If the "agendas" to which you referred were just stuff against 'gamer' as an identity, that's absolutely fine.

I thought you may have also been referring to issues of representation, feminism, etc, and wanting them "out of gaming".

I apologise if that wasn't the case.

a game is not worse just bacause is racist or sexist, you can express your opinion about those topics all you want, but its not valid criticism at the end of the day

Uhrm... why not?

Most people regard racism and sexism as pretty not-nice things. What makes it "invalid criticism"?

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Wh...what? Your opinion isn't less valid. That's why you have an equal right to voice it.

Again, though, I have to point out that there's no earthly reason I, or anybody else, should have to create our own game before we can have an opinion. Again; artistic criticism is a big part of why this forum exists.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Why would there be any risk in that? If you wanted games with less diversity or male protagonists, you could just make them! Everyone would be happily playing the games of their own creation, and we'd have no need for developers or publishers any more!

And why stop there?

Unhappy with that film? Don't criticize it, make the film you want to see!
Unhappy with your car? Don't criticize it, make the car you want to drive!
Unhappy with your country's military industrial complex? Don't criticize it, become the general of an upstart militia and form your own military industrial complex!

you are the one asking for change, you are the ones asking the artist to compromise its vision

also your comparisons are incredibly flawed, i can critize your argument, according to you now you must change it to fit my views

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

for starters, none of this

Spoiler: Articles Image.

or anita and her lying, and devs getting blacklisted, or being accused of false things

If the "agendas" to which you referred were just stuff against 'gamer' as an identity, that's absolutely fine.

I thought you may have also been referring to issues of representation, feminism, etc, and wanting them "out of gaming".

I apologise if that wasn't the case.

hey if these folks want to try their hand at game development, change the representation, good for them, they might even find a good market for that

i dont think anybody actually cares that much, nobody critized "my boyfriend the space tyrant", atleast i havent heard of such thing happening

a game is not worse just bacause is racist or sexist, you can express your opinion about those topics all you want, but its not valid criticism at the end of the day

Uhrm... why not?

Most people regard racism and sexism as pretty not-nice things. What makes it "invalid criticism"?

because you are now analizing the message instead of the work of art

it would be like making a car, its the best car ever made, but it has "kill all jews" written on the side, does that make the car worse as a car?

now dont get me wrong, its not like you cant express your opinion on the message of a work of art, thats perfectly fine, you might even make the artist reconsider and such, my problem with this is when people get waaay too offensive about it, and start accusing artists or being misogynistic or racist over stuff that might not necessarily be racist or sexist, this attitude is harmful, unless you know for sure the person behind the work of art is racist or sexist, you shouldnt call em that

because while these allegations mean nothing to your standard klansman, it can ruin the job opportunities, lives and relationships of that guy that simply wanted to design a female character with big tits, not because he is misogynistic, but because that was his idea for a character and it was appealing to him

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Wh...what? Your opinion isn't less valid. That's why you have an equal right to voice it.

Again, though, I have to point out that there's no earthly reason I, or anybody else, should have to create our own game before we can have an opinion. Again; artistic criticism is a big part of why this forum exists.

well like i said we can all voice our opinion about this, good we agree on that

if you guys arent offensive i dont mind if you express your concerns about the portrayal of a character in a game, the artist is free to use those ideas or not

 

[Silvanus]

hey if these folks want to try their hand at game development, change the representation, good for them, they might even find a good market for that

Indeed! Or, alternatively, they could offer criticism, which is a big part of the purpose of this website.

Wait, so is representation one of the "agendas" you'd like to keep out of gaming?

i dont think anybody actually cares that much, nobody critized "my boyfriend the space tyrant", atleast i havent heard of such thing happening

That would be because it's a relatively low-profile little indie game. A single (very small) example doesn't mean everything is equal, and MBFTST is- as far as I've heard- the only game with a written gay protagonist.

For comparison, Bioware did indeed receive criticism for including a gay character in Dragon Age: Inquisition. There've also been rather aggressive (and sometimes rather hateful) responses made to calls for inclusion in other franchises.

because you are now analizing the message instead of the work of art

it would be like making a car, its the best car ever made, but it has "kill all jews" written on the side, does that make the car worse as a car?

It certainly makes it a car that I won't drive.

Cars have a single function. They can fulfil that function well, or poorly, and the design-scheme is superficial. This is not the case with art. The story is a fundamental part. It's perfectly right to focus on it.

now dont get me wrong, its not like you cant express your opinion on the message of a work of art, thats perfectly fine, you might even make the artist reconsider and such, my problem with this is when people get waaay too offensive about it, and start accusing artists or being misogynistic or racist over stuff that might not necessarily be racist or sexist, this attitude is harmful, unless you know for sure the person behind the work of art is racist or sexist, you shouldnt call em that

because while these allegations mean nothing to your standard klansman, it can ruin the job opportunities, lives and relationships of that guy that simply wanted to design a female character with big tits, not because he is misogynistic, but because that was his idea for a character and it was appealing to him

This is why I prefer to criticise the art, rather than the artist.

well like i said we can all voice our opinion about this, good we agree on that

if you guys arent offensive i dont mind if you express your concerns about the portrayal of a character in a game, the artist is free to use those ideas or not

Indeed. We do have common ground, even if it's a little islandy bit of common ground.

I'm still not quite sure why you seemed to assume I thought your opinion was less valid; and I'm still a little iffy about when you said we should keep our "agendas" out of video gaming, and would like clarification on that.

The biggest thing that gets my shackles up is when I read sentiments that seem exclusionary. If those "agendas" include any efforts to increase minority representation, then... yeah. That sounds rather directly exclusionary.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

you are the one asking for change

I am?

you are the ones asking the artist to compromise its vision

Are you suggesting all games ascribe to auteur theory? Are you suggesting that "visions" can never be subject to change? Are you suggesting all criticism is moot because it might result in the author compromising "the vision"? Or only certain criticisms?

also your comparisons are incredibly flawed

Oh please DO explain how.

i can critize your argument, according to you now you must change it to fit my views

Really? That's according to me, is it? I made the argument that upon receiving criticism, artists must immediately act upon it? I don't REMEMBER making that argument, but I'm sure as you do you'll be happy to locate it and quote it for me so I can reflect upon it.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

hey if these folks want to try their hand at game development, change the representation, good for them, they might even find a good market for that

Indeed! Or, alternatively, they could offer criticism, which is a big part of the purpose of this website.

Wait, so is representation one of the "agendas" you'd like to keep out of gaming?

well i consider agendas the vilifying of people who dont share their vision of equality, their unequal threatment of women and men regarding their personal lifes, the pushing of a narratives over balanced reporting, and this crap

Spoiler

Spoiler

giving games lower scores for their "sexist" portrayal of women isnt just incredibly stupid, is also intellectual defeatism

"theres a sexy women in that game, therefore is sexist, therefore its crap"

heres a little analysis someone made about dragon crown's soceress which actually left me impressed, the design is not mere fan service, is actually a very original and deliberate despiction of a necromancer in a fantasy setting, one could even argue is EMPOWERING to women

Spoiler

i dont think anybody actually cares that much, nobody critized "my boyfriend the space tyrant", atleast i havent heard of such thing happening

That would be because it's a relatively low-profile little indie game. A single (very small) example doesn't mean everything is equal, and MBFTST is- as far as I've heard- the only game with a written gay protagonist.

For comparison, Bioware did indeed receive criticism for including a gay character in Dragon Age: Inquisition. There've also been rather aggressive (and sometimes rather hateful) responses made to calls for inclusion in other franchises.

we have to be careful with these allegations, ive seen gay/bi people critize bioware games because of their despiction of gay/bi characters, they dont feel is empowering, they feel is pandering, and they are added just as tokens

personally i dont oppose the inclusion of gay characters in a game if thats what the creator wants, i just dont want to see him forced to

because you are now analizing the message instead of the work of art

it would be like making a car, its the best car ever made, but it has "kill all jews" written on the side, does that make the car worse as a car?

It certainly makes it a car that I won't drive.

Cars have a single function. They can fulfil that function well, or poorly, and the design-scheme is superficial. This is not the case with art. The story is a fundamental part. It's perfectly right to focus on it.

but isnt a game's function to entertain via its mechanics and gameplay? i dont see how that is affected by the character model

i can see how some piece of art can be offensive to people, that doesnt make it bad, i remember being highly offended by this south park episode involving a statue of virgin mary, but i wont ask the writers to take it down, neither do i consider my personal feelings a valid criticism towards the episode

they can listen to my opinion and realize some of their audience wont consume their product in the way it is despicted, but thats about it

now dont get me wrong, its not like you cant express your opinion on the message of a work of art, thats perfectly fine, you might even make the artist reconsider and such, my problem with this is when people get waaay too offensive about it, and start accusing artists or being misogynistic or racist over stuff that might not necessarily be racist or sexist, this attitude is harmful, unless you know for sure the person behind the work of art is racist or sexist, you shouldnt call em that

because while these allegations mean nothing to your standard klansman, it can ruin the job opportunities, lives and relationships of that guy that simply wanted to design a female character with big tits, not because he is misogynistic, but because that was his idea for a character and it was appealing to him

This is why I prefer to criticise the art, rather than the artist.

very well, lets keep it like that

well like i said we can all voice our opinion about this, good we agree on that

if you guys arent offensive i dont mind if you express your concerns about the portrayal of a character in a game, the artist is free to use those ideas or not

Indeed. We do have common ground, even if it's a little islandy bit of common ground.

I'm still not quite sure why you seemed to assume I thought your opinion was less valid; and I'm still a little iffy about when you said we should keep our "agendas" out of video gaming, and would like clarification on that.

The biggest thing that gets my shackles up is when I read sentiments that seem exclusionary. If those "agendas" include any efforts to increase minority representation, then... yeah. That sounds rather directly exclusionary.

it was a haslty conclusion i made and i apologize

and i wasnt talking about you in particular when i meant agendas, i was taking about extremist advocates of social justice

it is not my intention to exclude minorities from gaming, and honestly i think thats almost impossible considering the diverse and huge democraphics of gamers, my intention is to keep all voices being equally heard, those for and agaisnt this issue, and not have anyone from either side being bullied into submission

 

[Silvanus]

well i consider agendas the vilifying of people who dont share their vision of equality, their unequal threatment of women and men regarding their personal lifes, the pushing of a narratives over balanced reporting, and this crap

Spoiler

Spoiler

giving games lower scores for their "sexist" portrayal of women isnt just incredibly stupid, is also intellectual defeatism

"theres a sexy women in that game, therefore is sexist, therefore its crap"

While we may disagree with those reviews, the style and content are still perfectly valid avenues of criticism. Games are art; they exist for style and story as well as pure function, as do books and movies.

We may disagree, but there's no moral and honest reason to demand other peoples' points of view are "kept out of gaming". It's no more our hobby than it is theirs.

heres a little analysis someone made about dragon crown's soceress which actually left me impressed, the design is not mere fan service, is actually a very original and deliberate despiction of a necromancer in a fantasy setting, one could even argue is EMPOWERING to women

Spoiler

It's an interesting perspective, but I must say I don't buy it, personally. Breasts are life-giving, sure, but she's also straddling the skeleton, and seems to be wrapping her ass around her stave.

we have to be careful with these allegations, ive seen gay/bi people critize bioware games because of their despiction of gay/bi characters, they dont feel is empowering, they feel is pandering, and they are added just as tokens

personally i dont oppose the inclusion of gay characters in a game if thats what the creator wants, i just dont want to see him forced to

Criticism is not force, of course.

Gay/bi people are not homogeneous, and tokenism is a very interesting avenue of discussion. I can't really see how the inclusion of a gay option can be seen as tokenism, though, when straight romances are exactly as freely available. Either way, the fact remains that games (and TV shows, and films, and literature) receive criticism for depicting gay people at all, regardless of the manner of portrayal.

but isnt a game's function to entertain via its mechanics and gameplay? i dont see how that is affected by the character model

Not for everyone. I play a great number of narrative-driven games, and would not enjoy them nearly as much if the stories were poorer.

The Walking Dead, TLOU, the Final Fantasy series. Silent Hill. Half-Life. Okami. The Arkham Games. Hell, most of my modern mainstays are my favourites precisely because of narrative, immersion, story and style.

very well, lets keep it like that

This sounds rather untrusting.

it was a haslty conclusion i made and i apologize

and i wasnt talking about you in particular when i meant agendas, i was taking about extremist advocates of social justice

it is not my intention to exclude minorities from gaming, and honestly i think thats almost impossible considering the diverse and huge democraphics of gamers, my intention is to keep all voices being equally heard, those for and agaisnt this issue, and not have anyone from either side being bullied into submission

Well, that's the thing. Currently, the voices against "SJW"s are the most numerous by far. I've barely seen anybody who could genuinely be considered such (going by the definitions given by posters here), and yet the backlash against this unseen enemy is gigantic.

This... kinda leads me to conclude that minorities themselves, for whom these "SJWs" supposedly fight, will be the ones that really lose out. That's what I feel when I see people labelled "SJW" for talking about a minority, in a completely polite way, without making demands or even suggestions. It's what I feel when I see games labelled as "SJW" games for the inclusion of diverse themes.

 

[blackmanon4chan]

Well she's using the term SJW at all, a stupid term used by stupid people, so clearly she's a moron. Not much else to say really.

That doesnt seem very logical at all. Its actually to help to distinguish between a zealot and someone who tries to actually help people. Like warrior and bully for example. So I disagree with your protestation that she is moron because she uses a term to describe the people who colloquially best fit the description.

I'm all for calling people who go too far out, but to be honest the term SJW has just been abused too much. I have little doubt that many people honestly reserve it for extremists, but there are just too many people out there who throw it at anyone who shows the slightest interest in the portrayal of women/PoC/LGBT characters in gaming. The phrase just has too much baggage and now whenever someone sees it, they have to play a guessing game to see if it's being used properly or not, and because of bad experiences, a lot of people don't think it is being used properly, if it ever was.

replace sjw with racist and you have the same problem. yeah there were people who diverse the title but just because its been overused doesn't make it any less descriptive or viable. as such you need to look at the writers/speakers intent and then disprove their accusation rather than saying "anyone calling racism is playing the race card".

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

While we may disagree with those reviews, the style and content are still perfectly valid avenues of criticism. Games are art; they exist for style and story as well as pure function, as do books and movies.

We may disagree, but there's no moral and honest reason to demand other peoples' points of view are "kept out of gaming". It's no more our hobby than it is theirs.

the problem is that, its not much different from me reviewing dust an elysian tail and knocking points off of it for its furry art style, i legitimately didnt like the style, but dust isnt a worse game because of it, the animation is in fact very fluid and detailed and the gameplay is overall fantastic

same here, and i dont think any other medium does this kind of stuff, just take a look at the birth of a nation, regarded by some as one of the greatest american films of all time and very innovative with its film techniques (at the time)

and its a KKK film, it caused an uproar even at the time of release and the director was actually force to many another film as some sort of apology, but still, the critics to this day recognize the merits of the film, the message is another thing entirely

It's an interesting perspective, but I must say I don't buy it, personally. Breasts are life-giving, sure, but she's also straddling the skeleton, and seems to be wrapping her ass around her stave.

personally i do buy it, its not the first time vanillaware comes up with the design, it seems deliberate

Criticism is not force, of course.

of course

Gay/bi people are not homogeneous, and tokenism is a very interesting avenue of discussion. I can't really see how the inclusion of a gay option can be seen as tokenism, though, when straight romances are exactly as freely available. Either way, the fact remains that games (and TV shows, and films, and literature) receive criticism for depicting gay people at all, regardless of the manner of portrayal.

i havent seen much criticism towards gays in other media to be honest, maybe im disconnected in that regard

im not assuming the gay/bi community is homogenous, only that we should be careful of confusing homophobia with legitimate criticism

i assume tokenism can be a problem when you add characters "just because" ANY character added "just because" can potentially make the narrative very jarring, and this isnt an issue exclusive to gay/bi characters, things like mascots characters, characters made only to sell toys, etc. they can fuck up a good story

you bring dragon age inquisition, a franchise that has already attracted some flak with the 2nd installment of the series, but i bring up Persona 4, a game with a cast that includes a transvestite woman and a bi/gay man, and the whole cast of characters of the game is almost universally acclaimed. i personally loved the way they handled kangi... well, for the most part

but isnt a game's function to entertain via its mechanics and gameplay? i dont see how that is affected by the character model

Not for everyone. I play a great number of narrative-driven games, and would not enjoy them nearly as much if the stories were poorer.

The Walking Dead, TLOU, the Final Fantasy series. Silent Hill. Half-Life. Okami. The Arkham Games. Hell, most of my modern mainstays are my favourites precisely because of narrative, immersion, story and style.

thats a fair point, but even then, personally i think the outer appeareance of the characters shouldnt really make them worse characters

yoko from gurren lagann for instance, boy, almost every shot of her puts emphasis on her body, and she is well, pretty damn sexy, but she is still one of the best and better developed character of the series

very well, lets keep it like that

This sounds rather untrusting.

dont take it the wrong way

it was a haslty conclusion i made and i apologize

and i wasnt talking about you in particular when i meant agendas, i was taking about extremist advocates of social justice

it is not my intention to exclude minorities from gaming, and honestly i think thats almost impossible considering the diverse and huge democraphics of gamers, my intention is to keep all voices being equally heard, those for and agaisnt this issue, and not have anyone from either side being bullied into submission

Well, that's the thing. Currently, the voices against "SJW"s are the most numerous by far. I've barely seen anybody who could genuinely be considered such (going by the definitions given by posters here), and yet the backlash against this unseen enemy is gigantic.

This... kinda leads me to conclude that minorities themselves, for whom these "SJWs" supposedly fight, will be the ones that really lose out. That's what I feel when I see people labelled "SJW" for talking about a minority, in a completely polite way, without making demands or even suggestions. It's what I feel when I see games labelled as "SJW" games for the inclusion of diverse themes.

the problem is that the voices pro-sjw are tyring to control the narrative in many major gaming websites at the moment

- gamers are being called terrorists, literally, we are being compared to people that kill, bomb and behead innocents
- gamers are beign told they are dead
- white straight male games keep being vilified, im not even white and i hate this crap because i have white friends on the internet and i know many white people i respect on the internet, i come from a country where theres basically no racism, for me, degrading someone for being white is not different from degrading someone for being black
- many gaming sites refuse to give equal treatment to both men and women, a man can get his name dragged in the mud, his career destroyed, and yeah people like you know who arent even touched, their stories published as fact with nothing but their word for it
- gaming being rated lower for their artistic decisions or character designs, even if the person behind those characters design is also a woman

the escapist is what all gaming websites should look up as example of how gaming journalism is done, ever since the change of policies, have you seen the escapist cover one site mroe than the other?


as for minorities, well, personally as a non-white im more annoyed by those SJWs that try to speak for me than by anybody else... errm, not talking about you of course, but, nobody asked me if i was offended by white characters, and now these people say i am