Another person shot dead this time at a rally and counter protest clash in Denver

[Dwarvenhobble]

Ok, so again deflecting from the article. Also, is "Person thinks Trump is fascist. Person opposes Trump. Trump=fascism, therefore person is Antifa" is so fucking dumb I'm kind of at a loss for words.

Hey it's the present standard being worked with here. If AntiFA is merely an ideology not a group then yeh that is how easily a person can be claimed to be AntiFA if you have an issue take it up with those who keep saying AntiFA isn't a group just anyone who believes in taking action now to oppose fascism.

I do love how that article just spells out your entire thesis statement for this thread though: "Footage from small hours has been seized upon by right-wing activists to condemn Black Lives Matter protesters", because let's face it, you didn't find out about this from local papers, you found out when all those vultures on Twitter started shrieking about it. It's why you're spending so much time trying to defend their earlier "aNtIfA AsSAsSIn" remarks.

1) I haven't mentioned BLM in this thread that I'm aware of or blamed them specifically.
2) I specifically kept the title pretty neutral until info has started to come out.
3) I've not been using twitter for a few weeks. Don't believe me? Look up my twitter handle (it's the same as my name here)
4) I didn't say it was an "AntiFA AsSAsSin" .......... are we just going down the road of making up false claims about what people said in this thread said because I'm happy to play that and you really shouldn't be going round telling people how you "want to plan explosives in trailer parks"......

 

[Mister Mumbler]

Snipperoo

3 deflections, congrats on the hat trick. You obviously at least saw the title, because you started going off on how this was totally different from his situation.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

3 deflections, congrats on the hat trick. You obviously at least saw the title, because you started going off on how this was totally different from his situation.

I'm sorry do you want me to answer to comments I've not made by you entirely invented? In that case when are you going to address the comments you made about kicking those cats?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

And yet Neo-Nazi is an ideology.

Organizations frequently form to push ideologies, yes.

AntiFa is an ideology and there are no groups people keep saying thus there is only judging them by affiliation to the ideology as there is no such thing as AntiFA groups or so people keep saying. Unless that's a lie now?

You're really desperate to call this Pinkerton security guard antifa. Of course, using the definition of antifa drawn out to it's "logical" conclusions based of the version of antifa that lives in your head, so's The Lincoln Project and John Kasich.
Which means whatever parallel you're trying to push for is so broad as to be meaningless.

Meanwhile, neo-nazis are far more defined, both ideologically and organizationally.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Organizations frequently form to push ideologies, yes.

You're really desperate to call this Pinkerton security guard antifa. Of course, using the definition of antifa drawn out to it's "logical" conclusions based of the version of antifa that lives in your head, so's The Lincoln Project and John Kasich.
Which means whatever parallel you're trying to push for is so broad as to be meaningless.

Meanwhile, neo-nazis are far more defined, both ideologically and organizationally.

If he was hired by Pinkerton then he wasn't a licenced security guard. Even so I pointed out a person who attacked some-one in the street before unprovoked was also a security guard at a previous protest and he sure as hell wasn't a Trump supporter, so you're telling me AntiFA supporters have no day jobs or something?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

If he was hired by Pinkerton then he wasn't a licenced security guard. Even so I pointed out a person who attacked some-one in the street before unprovoked was also a security guard at a previous protest and he sure as hell wasn't a Trump supporter, so you're telling me AntiFA supporters have no day jobs or something?

Yes, clearly every left wing person at a protest has no job while every right wing person at a protest is gainfully employed. That's a reasonable thing to assume.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Yes, clearly every left wing person at a protest has no job while every right wing person at a protest is gainfully employed. That's a reasonable thing to assume.

hey don't blame me you were the one seemingly shocked at the idea of a person with AntiFA beliefs acting as a security guards lol

 

[Trunkage]

Organizations frequently form to push ideologies, yes.

You're really desperate to call this Pinkerton security guard antifa. Of course, using the definition of antifa drawn out to it's "logical" conclusions based of the version of antifa that lives in your head, so's The Lincoln Project and John Kasich.
Which means whatever parallel you're trying to push for is so broad as to be meaningless.

Meanwhile, neo-nazis are far more defined, both ideologically and organizationally.

Nah man, the Lincoln Project is clearly Aunty Pha

Just to be clear, Nazi believe in white supremacy
Antifa believes in not that. That means they could be anarchist, capitalist or communist - you know something to believe in.

 

[Dreiko]

Nah man, the Lincoln Project is clearly Aunty Pha

Just to be clear, Nazi believe in white supremacy
Antifa believes in not that. That means they could be anarchist, capitalist or communist - you know something to believe in.

Just because someone calls themselves something, it doesn't by definition mean they are the thing they call themselves. Otherwise Nazis would just be socialists since their name means "national socialists". Antifa acts like fascists, they just purport to be against them for publicity's sake.


Though the guy in this particular case is more like a mainstream left wing person who was working as an illegal security guard when he actually wasn't supposed to. He wasn't actually antifa.


Oh, and that's not a good thing for us in the left. Because if that guy is the not-extreme, the extreme is really fucked lol.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

hey don't blame me you were the one seemingly shocked at the idea of a person with AntiFA beliefs acting as a security guards lol

Are you certain you're arguing with me and not some other entity?

Just because someone calls themselves something, it doesn't by definition mean they are the thing they call themselves. Otherwise Nazis would just be socialists since their name means "national socialists". Antifa acts like fascists, they just purport to be against them for publicity's sake.

"us in the left", huh

 

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[Dwarvenhobble]

Are you certain you're arguing with me and not some other entity?
"us in the left", huh
View attachment 1161

You were the one questioning how a person could be both security and AntiFA seemingly.

Also seeing as we're going there with simplistic messaging

Yes.



No. AntiFa is a loose coalition of independent organisations that adopt the moniker of Anti-Fascistic Action. There's no ideology there, only a desire to "bash the fash" as the kids say. In fact, AntiFa tends to draw from many distinct and disparate ideologies ranging from social democrats (and even the occasional centrist liberal) to communists, syndicalists, anarchists and people without any particular ideological affiliation who just hate fascists. In the US in particular, the latter group is probably the largest as the US historically has lacked any significant far left groups or ideological pressure.

Ah but therefore AntiFA can be considered existing by affiliation with certain group which we're told it doesn't exist and that Riot Kitchen etc are totally just people spontaneously doing stuff with no organisation

 

[Dreiko]

How is that? AntiFa is an organization without an ideology who uses violence to oppose proponents of a specific subset of ideologies (fascists). Apart from the acceptance of violence against political enemies as a legitimate tool, there's nothing that makes them similar. AntiFa has no goal other then to ensure, in their own words, "streets free from fascists". When the last Nazi is dead or has a political awakening and stops being a Nazi when waking up in the ICU, AntiFa's work is done. They don't aspire to power or sweeping political changes. They just want a particular political ideology to die and be forgotten.

To unilaterally, without a proper, valid and scientific procedure, merely decree things as being one way or another and to use violence against them because of that arbitrary decree that is based on your purported personal feelings, is the thing that is bad about fascists, because they are illiberal. Even when you do that just to the things you categorize or feel are fascist themselves, that doesn't make it any more liberal. You do not get to call things "facists" or "not facsist", you are not god, nobody elected you. To try to do that is what fascists do. No, in our democracy we believe that society as a whole will either support something or be against it, without your violent contribution. There is literally no place for a group like antifa in our system, nor any room for fascism, either.

People are using the term incorrectly, applying it to things it doesn't actually apply to, and using that mistaken premise as the foundation for their violent antics.

"us in the left", huh
View attachment 1161

There needs to be a fourth guy there with a bubble that says "I don't care about any of this, I just want free healthcare, free college, higher wages, a UBI and freedom of speech/expression/the arts".

The reason is that in our system, we do not allow those things the first guy wishes to do, they are already illegal, and vigilantism is bad, just as illegal, in fact. The second guy is acting above their station, taking up a task that is not for them, an in the process is violating the rights of people who have only committed thought crimes so far.

It is more wrong to violate the rights of a person who wishes could violate other people's rights, than to wish to violate people's rights but not yet do it because you lack the opportunity. The reason is that merely wishing something is not an act, and we do not punish thought crimes in a free society. We only punish acts. If you fail to grasp this basic moral premise you do not get how this system is supposed to work, or what freedom is.


You don't need to not have any heterodox views to be on the left. You just need to hold in higher esteem those of your views that are left-wing. You need to put greater importance on the issues that are left wing that you support. That way, even if you also agree with the right wing on something, if that something isn't too important to you, you still are on the left wing.


And newsflash, but that is what normal people are like. Only crazy ideologues in their bubble only subscribe to policies that their wing supports and to no policy that it doesn't support. At that level it's more like a tribal thing where you see things in "teams" and not in "what would be better for my life" terms.

 

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[Dwarvenhobble]

There needs to be a fourth guy there with a bubble that says "I don't care about any of this, I just want free healthcare, free college, higher wages, a UBI and freedom of speech/expression/the arts".

The reason is that in our system, we do not allow those things the first guy wishes to do, they are already illegal, and vigilantism is bad, just as illegal, in fact. The second guy is acting above their station, taking up a task that is not for them, an in the process is violating the rights of people who have only committed thought crimes so far.

It is more wrong to violate the rights of a person who wishes could violate other people's rights, than to wish to violate people's rights but not yet do it because you lack the opportunity. The reason is that merely wishing something is not an act, and we do not punish thought crimes in a free society. We only punish acts. If you fail to grasp this basic moral premise you do not get how this system is supposed to work, or what freedom is.


You don't need to not have any heterodox views to be on the left. You just need to hold in higher esteem those of your views that are left-wing. You need to put greater importance on the issues that are left wing that you support. That way, even if you also agree with the right wing on something, if that something isn't too important to you, you still are on the left wing.


And newsflash, but that is what normal people are like. Only crazy ideologues in their bubble only subscribe to policies that their wing supports and to no policy that it doesn't support. At that level it's more like a tribal thing where you see things in "teams" and not in "what would be better for my life" terms.

^ This. So Much all of this.

Politics has become like a hobby to some people or a sport where they blindly support everything their "Team" says and will refuse to support anything the other "Team" says they want.

 

[Dreiko]

Woah, that goalpost moved on its own!



I am not an Antifa supporter and I totally agree with your assessment of them. This does not explain how they act like fascists though. Antifa doesn't exhibit the traditional traits of fascism like authoritarianism, despising weakness and invention of outside enemies to drive support and explain social problems. If anything Antifa is decidedly anti-authoritarian, out to protect the weak and has no desire for social reform and thus no need to create enemies, instead preferring to target people who adopt a specific moniker. It is important to realize that Antifa does not randomly label people fascists and attack them, they attack people who adopt that label for themselves or are fascists adjacent (like organized racists). In the US they also like to attack the police, but that's hardly surprising consider the heavy-handed response from many police departments in the last few months.

That Antifa operates outside of the law and willingly breaks it to attack their political opponents is not enough to say that they act like fascists, especially as much of their MO is directly counter to how fascists would act or operate.

So, the "outside enemy" is everyone who is not a radical left winger (and apparently "liberals get the bullet too" according to some graffiti). Antifa uses the label of fascism to identify anyone who is not a radical leftist progressive, and out of those, some will be actual fascist by the laws of probability, but that is not who they're limiting their definition to. If you lay a wide enough net you're bound to catch some actual fascists too but the issue is everyone else who is getting caught here, since that's an actually significant number of people affected, unlike the miniscule if any number of people affected by actual fascists in america.

Fascist-adjacent just means "not fascist" btw. You do not get to harm non-fascists, while purporting to be only against fascists, because they are a little too kind to the people you hate or might become them one day, and keep pretending you're only against fascists.


Oh and, I'm burying the lead, but no, those things fascists want to do, they're already illegal.

I support those things remaining illegal.

Who the hell gave you the right to supersede the laws that we as a society decided to live under and take it upon yourself? Are you LARPING a superhero? Dafuk? Who the hell gave you the right to do that? No, if you do that and use violence in the process, that's a fascist move.

You're free to promote your ideas that go counter to theirs, if they do something illegal the police will catch them (like those guys trying to kidnap a governor recently, who were caught and arrested, not helped by the supposedly fascist police), if not, you'll have to use the same arms they do in their political agenda.


You do not get a monopoly on righteous violence.



Basically, those other traits of fascism that antifa lacks are not the reason why fascists are bad. And the reason why fascists are bad is shared by antifa. If they're just jingoiistic and racist, that just them being assholes, as long as no violence is involved everywhere, they get to be that in a free society. I'm just not gonna go to their house for dinner is all.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Woah, that goalpost moved on its own!

Yes it did strange from AntiFA being an ideology to now being only members of select groups...... how weird it keeps doing that.

I am not an Antifa supporter and I totally agree with your assessment of them. This does not explain how they act like fascists though. Antifa doesn't exhibit the traditional traits of fascism like authoritarianism, despising weakness and invention of outside enemies to drive support and explain social problems.

Well:

The Brownshirts were basically the paramilitary wing of the Nazi party before it came to power. Part of their activities was deliberately turning up to other groups events to try and attack and disrupt them.

In this case these was a planned event by a group and suddenly on the same day nearby their event there's the BLM-AntiFA soup drive.

It's happened other times before. How often in the 2016 election cycle was there talk of violence outside Trump fundraising events or rallies? It was quite often yet the worst that happened at a Democrat one was a heckler showing up at one point.

As for blaming people for social issues. Well any group they can define as Alt-right, Nazis or make false claims that said people are white supremacists. It's a fairly nebulous idea this alt-network that some places have claims exists and is some massive alliance between somehow everyone from Lacie Green to Richard Spencer because said people dare to call out or debunk some of the ideas being pushed out there.

The people shot dead in CHAZ initially were being said to have been White supremacist who attack the central building and command area of CHAZ. Turns out it was just two black teens joyriding who were shot by the CHAZ security forces.

People who disagree with them or turn up to listen to other peoples opinions who they say are bad, they do everything they can to shut down said events and target anyone attending.

If anything Antifa is decidedly anti-authoritarian, out to protect the weak and has no desire for social reform and thus no need to create enemies, instead preferring to target people who adopt a specific moniker. It is important to realize that Antifa does not randomly label people fascists and attack them, they attack people who adopt that label for themselves or are fascists adjacent (like organized racists). In the US they also like to attack the police, but that's hardly surprising consider the heavy-handed response from many police departments in the last few months.

That Antifa operates outside of the law and willingly breaks it to attack their political opponents is not enough to say that they act like fascists, especially as much of their MO is directly counter to how fascists would act or operate.

Yet AntiFA people act authoritarian. Only speeches by people they approve of may go ahead. Only flags they approve of are allowed at events


Some of them don't want reform but destruction of all the present systems and anarchy reigning.

Others seem to think the changes to the system will just put them higher and in more power it seems.

AntiFA doesn't randomly label people as fascists?


The guy was trying to keep the peace.........


Her hat said Make Bitcoin great again.


He was filming, clearly a fascist right?

 

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[Kwak]

....


Oh, and that's not a good thing for us in the left.

'US in the left'?!
Wow, I've really misconstrued your orientation from your posting history, so sorry.