Another person shot dead this time at a rally and counter protest clash in Denver

Buyetyen

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If you listen to your doctor when you're not yourself a doctor and have no idea either way about something, you're not responsible for whatever ill follows, the doctor is.
You don't see a difference between a private citizen following the doctor's orders and an elected official making policy that effects millions? You do not believe that leaders are responsible for the consequences of acting on bad information?

The FBI is not perfect, our system is founded upon the principle that when someone does something bad even within these organizations, they will also go to jail too. This idea helps allow justice to exist. When something unjust occurs, that's just people being imperfect, the system is fine.
This is nonsense. This is just an excuse to not give a shit about injustice.

And yes, corruption should already be illegal (political donations are legal which is absurd and should change). Just arrest all those corrupt pigs. No resistance here. If you wanna form an anti-police cop force which only works on policing corrupt police I'm all up for that, but the actual intended function of the police is fine the way it is.
If it's fine the way it is, then why are cops so fucking corrupt? How come they're able to regularly murder people and get away with it?

A problem doesn't go away just because you refuse to look at it.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Not having a formal organisational structure is not the same as not having any organisation.
ah but they have very close to a formal one as they have to get supplies from somewhere thus there has to be some-one organising that. Some with distributing it out and organising transporting it Hell there also will have to be people coming up with the designs for the gear etc too for the stuff that's home made and teaching others to make it to the design. Don't forget advertising to raise funds and some-one managing the finances to keep it running etc.
 

Agema

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ah but they have very close to a formal one as they have to get supplies from somewhere thus there has to be some-one organising that. Some with distributing it out and organising transporting it Hell there also will have to be people coming up with the designs for the gear etc too for the stuff that's home made and teaching others to make it to the design. Don't forget advertising to raise funds and some-one managing the finances to keep it running etc.
When you go to the pub with a few mates, and you have a chat about who is going to get the first round in and someone volunteers, do you think that's the same as having an official job?

No?

Right. Then you understand the concept of being able to organise something without a formal organisational structure.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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When you go to the pub with a few mates, and you have a chat about who is going to get the first round in and someone volunteers, do you think that's the same as having an official job?

No?

Right. Then you understand the concept of being able to organise something without a formal organisational structure.
A bit different to having a pint down the pub really organising materials suppliers and distributions lol.

I mean it's closer to my mates and camping trips and trust me it may not have been official organisation but there was structure to to with who was in charge of booking, organising transport and organisation on the site when we got there.
 

Buyetyen

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When you go to the pub with a few mates, and you have a chat about who is going to get the first round in and someone volunteers, do you think that's the same as having an official job?

No?

Right. Then you understand the concept of being able to organise something without a formal organisational structure.
At this point I'm disinclined to believe that Tories know much about organization in general. Brexit has not brightened that assessment.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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At this point I'm disinclined to believe that Tories know much about organization in general. Brexit has not brightened that assessment.
Are we going to try to go closer to back on topic or can I join in with the slanging match and snide comments?
 

Agema

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A bit different to having a pint down the pub really organising materials suppliers and distributions lol.

I mean it's closer to my mates and camping trips and trust me it may not have been official organisation but there was structure to to with who was in charge of booking, organising transport and organisation on the site when we got there.
Yes, but it's not a job, no-one has a contract. No-one has to do it, or can force other people do it. Next time you go camping, you don't all have to do the same task you did last time. You don't have boss.

You agree to tasks, and you go off and do your bit. It's organisation without formal structure.
 
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Cheetodust

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ah but they have very close to a formal one as they have to get supplies from somewhere thus there has to be some-one organising that. Some with distributing it out and organising transporting it Hell there also will have to be people coming up with the designs for the gear etc too for the stuff that's home made and teaching others to make it to the design. Don't forget advertising to raise funds and some-one managing the finances to keep it running etc.
Me and my friends decide to organise a fundraiser.

People involved decide to do a thing.
People involved see who has skills and resources for particular tasks.
People involved divide out tasks with majority consensus.
I used to be a club comic and have connections with various pubs for venues, sponsorship etc. People decide I can start contacting people. My friend Dave is a graphic designer, he can do posters. My friend Sam is a sound engineer so he sorts out equipment. Everyone else agrees to flier in their area. Nobody there is in charge. There is no formal structure. Next fundraiser might be a fun run in which case my friend Brian who has connections with a lot of sport clubs can do the job I did this time in regards to organising venues and sponsorship. Nobody is VP in charge of sponsorship.
 

Dreiko

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You don't see a difference between a private citizen following the doctor's orders and an elected official making policy that effects millions? You do not believe that leaders are responsible for the consequences of acting on bad information?
That would be being anti-science. A politician is not likely to listen to science when it's on them and not on the doctor if the science is right, they'll play it safe to keep their neck out of it. We rightly blame Trump for not listening to scientists enough, because of the reason I lay out. If we want a pro-science approach, we need to allow politicians to listen to scientists without there being any risk for them.
This is nonsense. This is just an excuse to not give a shit about injustice.
No this doesn't make you do nothing, what it does is make you supervise the people with a greater degree of scrutiny in order to remove from their positions those who are failing. That's the built-in supposition of our society and culture; that if you don't do your job right you will be replaced with someone better. If you also wanna replace the person who looks out to see whether people do their jobs right cause he's also failing, sure, I'm also fine with that, that's also congruent here.

If it's fine the way it is, then why are cops so fucking corrupt? How come they're able to regularly murder people and get away with it?

A problem doesn't go away just because you refuse to look at it.
Cause it's people who become cops, and statistics show the types of people who'd wanna do that job have other kinds of issues to begin with, so they'd be that way no matter what job they did.

The problem doesn't go away without police existing either, they'd just go be corrupt bankers or lawyers or whatever else. The issue is the people, not the institution, and because we will always have some bad people we also will always have some of them in our institutions. The fix we have decided on is weeding them out, not just destroying society so that they will have no power in a system that there's nothing left to have power over any more.
 

Buyetyen

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That would be being anti-science. A politician is not likely to listen to science when it's on them and not on the doctor if the science is right, they'll play it safe to keep their neck out of it. We rightly blame Trump for not listening to scientists enough, because of the reason I lay out. If we want a pro-science approach, we need to allow politicians to listen to scientists without there being any risk for them.
This is empty bullshit. If you are a leader, everything that happens on your watch is your responsibility. If you act on bad information, those consequences are your responsibility too. This is an element of leadership that 99% of people fail at, yourself included. They want the authority with none of the attendant responsibility.

that if you don't do your job right you will be replaced with someone better.
On paper, not in reality. Once you've decided not to give a shit about injustice, you only need an excuse. Any excuse will do.

Cause it's people who become cops, and statistics show the types of people who'd wanna do that job have other kinds of issues to begin with, so they'd be that way no matter what job they did.
Bull. Fucking. Shit. If the job is that attractive to abusive, authoritarian thugs, then there's something wrong with the job.

The problem doesn't go away without police existing either, they'd just go be corrupt bankers or lawyers or whatever else. The issue is the people, not the institution, and because we will always have some bad people we also will always have some of them in our institutions. The fix we have decided on is weeding them out, not just destroying society so that they will have no power in a system that there's nothing left to have power over any more.
No, you haven't decided on a fix. Your argument is that there is no inherent corruption in the system, people just suck and there's nothing we can do to stop them from hurting us. And nobody here is saying to abolish all forms of law enforcement, don't be so dishonest. What we are saying is that we need to replace the corrupt system with a better one with more oversight. And while you pay lip service to that idea, you have not in any way shown through your actions you would actually support such a course of action.
 

Dreiko

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This is empty bullshit. If you are a leader, everything that happens on your watch is your responsibility. If you act on bad information, those consequences are your responsibility too. This is an element of leadership that 99% of people fail at, yourself included. They want the authority with none of the attendant responsibility.



On paper, not in reality. Once you've decided not to give a shit about injustice, you only need an excuse. Any excuse will do.



Bull. Fucking. Shit. If the job is that attractive to abusive, authoritarian thugs, then there's something wrong with the job.



No, you haven't decided on a fix. Your argument is that there is no inherent corruption in the system, people just suck and there's nothing we can do to stop them from hurting us. And nobody here is saying to abolish all forms of law enforcement, don't be so dishonest. What we are saying is that we need to replace the corrupt system with a better one with more oversight. And while you pay lip service to that idea, you have not in any way shown through your actions you would actually support such a course of action.
I think the issue is terming it as "replace" and not "improve" that I can't get behind.

You don't need to replace it to have it be more accountable, you just have to adjust it some.

If you want something concrete, how about when a department settles a police abuse case and has to pay a ton of money, that money doesn't come out of the city any more but rather is garnished from the wages and pensions of the cops involved in the incident? I'd be fully behind that.



So yeah, I'm all for fixes, but if the issue is trying to make it so that an institution that has power won't attract power-hungry authoritarian thugs, the literal only way to do that is to remove the power. Cause those types will always be attracted to some type of vocation that will allow them to lord over other people, and the only way to remove the power out of an institution that is aimed at protecting people and maintaining the order of society is to abandon those things, since in their protection one will always have to wield power. It's legit easier to create policing robots than to make any sort of job even kinda close to policing unappealing to assholes.


Hell, you don't even need to be a cop to do these things, you have Zimmerman who was just dreaming of being a cop one day who shot that kid. His action had nothing to do with the institution of policing, despite how much it mirrors ones that do. Even if you never hire these types or weed them out they can still cause plenty of harm. The institution doesn't make them do it.
 
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Buyetyen

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I think the issue is terming it as "replace" and not "improve" that I can't get behind.
Excuses.

If you want something concrete, how about when a department settles a police abuse case and has to pay a ton of money, that money doesn't come out of the city any more but rather is garnished from the wages and pensions of the cops involved in the incident? I'd be fully behind that.
And this will address the FOP''s mafia-like behavior or the presence of white supremacists within law enforcement how? Other than not at all, I mean.

So yeah, I'm all for fixes,
No you're not.

Hell, you don't even need to be a cop to do these things, you have Zimmerman who was just dreaming of being a cop one day who shot that kid. His action had nothing to do with the institution of policing, despite how much it mirrors ones that do. Even if you never hire these types or weed them out they can still cause plenty of harm. The institution doesn't make them do it.
Give me a minute to get over the shock of you agreeing that murdering an unarmed black dude was in fact a crime.

The institution does enable people like every killer cop who got away with it. Your proposed solutions would change nothing. The punishment is irrelevant if the FOP can get them out of it every time. Severity of punishment doesn't deter bad behavior, certainty does.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Me and my friends decide to organise a fundraiser.

People involved decide to do a thing.
People involved see who has skills and resources for particular tasks.
People involved divide out tasks with majority consensus.
I used to be a club comic and have connections with various pubs for venues, sponsorship etc. People decide I can start contacting people. My friend Dave is a graphic designer, he can do posters. My friend Sam is a sound engineer so he sorts out equipment. Everyone else agrees to flier in their area. Nobody there is in charge. There is no formal structure. Next fundraiser might be a fun run in which case my friend Brian who has connections with a lot of sport clubs can do the job I did this time in regards to organising venues and sponsorship. Nobody is VP in charge of sponsorship.
and that would be a one off not a continuous thing that is ongoing for longer periods.
 

tstorm823

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Me and my friends decide to organise a fundraiser.

People involved decide to do a thing.
People involved see who has skills and resources for particular tasks.
People involved divide out tasks with majority consensus.
I used to be a club comic and have connections with various pubs for venues, sponsorship etc. People decide I can start contacting people. My friend Dave is a graphic designer, he can do posters. My friend Sam is a sound engineer so he sorts out equipment. Everyone else agrees to flier in their area. Nobody there is in charge. There is no formal structure. Next fundraiser might be a fun run in which case my friend Brian who has connections with a lot of sport clubs can do the job I did this time in regards to organising venues and sponsorship. Nobody is VP in charge of sponsorship.
And then Brian pockets the money and runs without any way to hold him accountable. Hooray, anarchy!
 
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Agema

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Brian could do that as well in current system. It already happens.
Well, technically, Brian doesn't run away with the money, he lobbies government to leave him a massive loophole so he can pocket the money without even the inconvenience of having to run away. And then for good measure, just in case he's miscalculated, Brian does it through a corporate entity which has the same rights of a person so that even if it does turn out to be illegal, that entity takes the punishment instead.
 

MrCalavera

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Well, technically, Brian doesn't run away with the money, he lobbies government to leave him a massive loophole so he can pocket the money without even the inconvenience of having to run away. And then for good measure, just in case he's miscalculated, Brian does it through a corporate entity which has the same rights of a person so that even if it does turn out to be illegal, that entity takes the punishment instead.
I stand corrected. Clever fella, that Brian.