Are Women Tournaments Sexist?

[Overusedname]

I suppose there is the argument that women pro gamers are few and far between because it's seen as a boy's club so there being a woman's team is a way of granting a sort of mental permission to women to join in.

You see this with a lot of non-physical-sports related male dominated fields, like groups for women in science and technology or maths.

It does bother me that it's seen as necessary, because sometimes it feels like the women's groups are seen as the groups of people-who-aren't-good-enough-to-be-playing-with-the-REAL-scientists/mathematicians/gamers, personally I'm always reluctant to go to women-only groups for this reason, but I guess for a lot of women it can be very encouraging to get into something that they otherwise get the impression they're not welcome in.

You explained it pretty damn well.

It's a social/mental thing, not a skill thing.

Men and women are separated in chess tournaments as well, because if the best women played against the best men...well, lets not even go there.

It's all for the sake of fairness and I'm fine with that. Women should compete against women, men against men. Anyone who says that is "sexist" is ironically sexist themselves for failing to understand the difference between the genders extends further than just dangly bits.

Spoken as someone who has never cracked open a book on how minuscule and objectively inconsistent gender difference is.

Statistics suggest women would have a skillset better suited to chess anyway. Higher observation skills, more likely to consider the future and consequences of their actions.

Statistically. It's all about the individual. And like someone previously pointed out, look at horse back tourneys.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Why should there be emotional violence at all?
Besides, those examples of what you consider 'trash talking' women should answer with sort of shows the problem:
For a heterosexual man suggesting they have 'unmanly, non-heterosexual' qualities is offensive.
For a woman or someone who is gay it's their gender or sexuality itself that's a source for trash talk.

There are definitely areas (like professional gaming) where there shouldn't be emotional violence.

Then there are situations where 'trash talk' can be appropriate, but not everything you say is equally sexist/racist/homophobic.

This is something I have run into.

If I, as a woman, say something about the playing style of the opponent, I'm going to get back insults about how I have tits or something.

And then I'm not supposed to complain about that, because 'I did that too', except that my comments were not sexist and had nothing to do with the gender of the person who sucks at the game.

Because trash talking is just one of the ways you can win.
Anything that ensures that your opponent switches off his/her brain is acceptable.
For example, amongst males hitting between legs is commonly considered "dirty" move, but it is viable option to fight someone who is much more stronger than you are.
Similarly with trash talking- if I deal with someone who portrays obvious lack of skills or is new to the game, I will just lough at him/her. But if I am thrown against more experienced player I will do and say everything to ensure my victory.
Dirty but not unacceptable.

On the other hand there are those who trash talk without any particular reason.
I don't understand these players.

Name me one martial arts where hitting a guy in the nuggets is an acceptable strategy.

Oh i am sorry, the real martial arts where you are fighting for you life.

Or to put it another way someone once said.

Ask Miyamoto Musashi what code of conduct he lived/fought by and he probably would have died laughing.

There is no comparison to martial arts back in the day to the ones today, they are disneyfied and style over substance. So i find that example totally silly.

Baby, if you ever need to trashtalk a woman to survive, be my guest, but don't go comparing that to a game-competition.

I found your example equally silly when applied to a game.

 

[blackrave]

Name me one martial arts where hitting a guy in the nuggets is an acceptable strategy.

Any martial art that isn't sport and deals with real life fight scenarios (fights against multiple armed enemies)
Krav Maga, Sirsinat and Kalaripayattu for sure, most probably Kuk Sool and Kombatan too (I have no experience in these two)

Baby, if you ever need to trashtalk a woman to survive, be my guest, but don't go comparing that to a game-competition.

I found your example equally silly when applied to a game.

No you don't need trash talk to women to survive, but you may need to kick someone in balls to survive.
I think you got mixed in analogy a bit

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Yes. If 'Male Only' anything is sexist, then 'Female Only' anything is sexist. End of story.

So, why not have all of the above: female, male and mixed. Equal opportunities and fair competition for all.

 

[crystalsnow]

So, why not have all of the above: female, male and mixed. Equal opportunities and fair competition for all.

Way to miss the point like a champ.

 

[cerebus23]

was i talking about trash talking? i was taking about hitting someone in the junk in a fight, and yes if a ANYONE was trying to kill/hurt me hitting them anywhere is all good. especially in "martial" (deadly) arts.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?

Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.

I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.

aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnddddddd THIS! Id rather be equal in the sense that I can trash talk a woman and she can trash talk me back! thats much more in the spirit of competitive gaming than, " lets all be nicey nice and make her feel welcome"

That said I do believe you should know the person first. This may come as a shock but there are plenty of girls who laugh there ass off at sexist jokes and can dish it out.

But I think this what happens when we confuse a "difference in rights and privelege" and whats simply one person having a thicker skin than the other.

I trashtalk every one of my male friends when we're gaming, and obviously there are sexist jokes happening there, but they know me, and I'm not being singled out for being a girl, whereas that chick in the Tekken tournament was picked on because she was different from the others, by her own team even! The question is, are you trashtalking me because I'm a girl, or because I am a person competing.

For me because you are a person. The labels of sex and race are only applied as satire. And your right that guy didnt know when to stop. though watching the video the girl wasnt giving strong enough hints(at least as far in as i watched which was like halfway) smaling and half joking like but yeah I think you and I agree on this.

In general I like to get to know someone first and respect differences. on the whole I do prefer a girl that can trash talk over one that cannot but thats me.

Dude, we are totally on the same page here *high five* I prefer a guy who can argue back at me as well, the debates would get awfully one-sided if I was the only one constantly rattling on. Why do you think I spent so much time in this thread?

I think for that girl, it was really hard to say 'fuck off asshole' because she learned it's pretty pointless with those types, or maybe she was scared of what would happen if she insulted the guy who was obviously part of the organisation that allowed her to play.

 

[GoaThief]

Name me one martial arts where hitting a guy in the nuggets is an acceptable strategy.

Kung Fu
Krav Maga
Muay Thai

Those are three that I've experience in and all have "dirty" moves, forms and even use of weapons designed to maim, immobilise or kill, especially the first two. What you need to realise that martial art =/= ring sport. Blame MMA and it's BJJ sponsors for that.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

was i talking about trash talking? i was taking about hitting someone in the junk in a fight, and yes if a ANYONE was trying to kill/hurt me hitting them anywhere is all good. especially in "martial" (deadly) arts.

I'm sorry, here I thought we were having a discussion about gaming tournaments, seperate female tournaments and the trashtalking that happens in them.

But sure, I'm all for self-defense when your life's in danger.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

Name me one martial arts where hitting a guy in the nuggets is an acceptable strategy.

Kung Fu
Krav Maga
Muay Thai

Those are three that I've experience in and all have "dirty" moves, forms and even use of weapons designed to maim, immobilise or kill, especially the first two. What you need to realise that martial art =/= ring sport. Blame MMA and it's BJJ sponsors for that.

yikes...that sounds nasty.

Consider my argument revised from martial arts to official sports like Judo. I only meant to say that the comparison of kicking a guy in the nuts isn't exactly acceptable in sports, just like it shouldn't be acceptable to single someone out for their gender or race in a gaming tournament.

 

[Lieju]

Because trash talking is just one of the ways you can win.
Anything that ensures that your opponent switches off his/her brain is acceptable.

Wait, what?
Depends on the competition and how well you know the other people, but surely there's such a thing as sportmanship? Or, you know, not being a douchebag?
For example, if I know that the other player was abused as a child, or is going through a messy divorce or has a bad phobia of something, would rubbing that into their noses be acceptable to get a slight advantage?

Because I don't think I'd like to be a part of a community where that's considered okay.

 

[cerebus23]

You were the one that bought the whole kicking in the junk thing into this.

I already said my piece on trash talking. most people suck at it.

and simply the best way to deal with it? destroy them. be it on the bball court, or a fist fight, or a quake match. nothing shuts up a talker quicker than pwning them.

 

[Sunrider]

If the female teams are good enough to compete with the men in a tournament like The International, do you seriously think Valve (or any of the teams for that matter) would have any complaints with them competing? If you do, you are probably the real sexist, not the tournament arrangers or the teams.
I don't see anything negative with having "women tournaments" until that happens.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Men and women are separated in chess tournaments as well, because if the best women played against the best men...well, lets not even go there.

It's all for the sake of fairness and I'm fine with that. Women should compete against women, men against men. Anyone who says that is "sexist" is ironically sexist themselves for failing to understand the difference between the genders extends further than just dangly bits.

Except in horse riding, men and women are placed together and more often than not, it's the women winning through a mix of perspective, collaboration and coordination. So...why not?

Personally, I think that sports should have a mixed competition, where the best of both genders can participate, maybe the men will prove better, and maybe a few women will actually challenge the men to try different strategies.

That is not to say we should just cancel all separated leagues, just, maybe there should be room for both.

There is room for both...horse back tourneys, there you said it
For any sport which requires physical prowess if you want to see men and women mixed, then I would LOVE to see the result of that.

As for sports where physical prowess isn't needed (say horse riding, chess, video games), fine, lets mix men and women there too. I'd love to see the result as well.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

So, why not have all of the above: female, male and mixed. Equal opportunities and fair competition for all.

Way to miss the point like a champ.

Yeah, right back atcha. The only reason to seperate sports is an unequality between its contestants. So, how do we determine that difference? by creating a mixed competition. That mixed competition will eliminate any claims of sexism on either team.

Not that the term male sexism is very accurate, seeing as how white men in particular are still given more chances in society when it comes to things like job opportunity.

almost every aspect of human civilization is ruled over by caucasian males, so, to claim reverse sexism/racism to dismiss the issue when another group is asking to talk about something is...really quite rude.

 

[Quesa]

Depends on the competition and how well you know the other people, but surely there's such a thing as sportmanship? Or, you know, not being a douchebag?

I thought he was pretty clear on that, winning at anything is worth being as pathetic a human as you have to be to overcome your shortcomings and achieve the greatest of dreams. At least he wasn't talking about throwing feces. Yet.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Not that the term male sexism is very accurate, seeing as how white men in particular are still given more chances in society when it comes to things like job opportunity.

Maybe because men are vastly more likely to take on extreme/risky jobs?

When was the last time you heard of a mining company, an oil rig or even a construction company with mostly female employees? Is it because ALL these companies just happen to be sexist? Or the fact that they see a male getting paid $40,000 being more productive in that field than a female getting paid exactly the same? You know, putting aside the fact that extreme minority of females even BOTHER applying for such jobs. There's more than one reason the term "manpower" came around.

 

[Haukur Isleifsson]

I get where you are coming from, but science isn't the answer here.

Yes. Yes it is. Social science maybe but science all the same.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Men generally have better spatial coordination and women are generally better at multitasking. Honestly I think it is a bit sexist in the case of games because I wouldn't think the differences enough to put either gender at a significant disadvantage.

Actual sports, different story.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I don't think it's sexist and i can't really say that i've seen much tornaments that actually bother with such things anyway
it seems more academic than a real problem where are the masses of these segregated leagues