(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

[Lilani]

-snip-

I'm sorry, but I can't figure this out. What on earth is your fucking point? Are you trying to say women don't deserve games that appeal to them because they as a collective haven't yet shown they are capable of desiring such things? Addressing any gender as a collective is childish thinking.

Look, I can do it too. Men on online multiplayer games are the most vile and repulsive thing ever to happen to video games. The moment they were given microphones they began to spew the most ignorant and destructive things to other people. Men and boys are a blight upon multiplayer games. I would say the vast majority I come across online have little interest in being remotely decent human beings.

And all of the men encourage it. Even by remaining silent when someone else is getting berated by the trolls, they are condoning and encouraging the behavior to continue. Because these things are allowed to happen, all men must be blamed for the behavior. It is the fault of all, and until it completely stops not a single male can claim they are not a part of the problem. They are the majority online, and so they must take responsibility. If they don't want to be blamed, then they have to man up and take care of it. I don't care if you don't say the words yourself--you have no room to be offended by anything that is done online, and because you haven't stopped it yet.

That is what I'm getting from you, Tippy. Women are either completely absent from or not featured appealingly in hardcore games because women as a collective have not risen up to solve the problem. Women have not accurately expressed their feelings, and so women are the sole cause of the problem and not a single one has any room to complain about the situation or claim to be innocent because the problem still exists.

What you are doing is a common logical fallacy that occurs in gender debates. Blaming the collective of a gender for the very fact that a problem exists, and saying that no member of that gender is absent from responsibility no matter where the statistics fall.

If you're going to sit here and complain about the percentages of women at cons. Frankly, I don't know, and I don't care. I know I personally don't go to cons simply because I can't. I don't live anywhere near any of them occur. So I can only speak for myself in that regard. But what I will say is this: If you are going to sit here and blame every single female for problems generated by a lack of female participation to fix the problem, then I get to blame every single male for the condition of multiplayer games and Internet trolling for their lack of participation in fixing that problem. Is that a deal?

 

[Aprilgold]

Except here is the problem when people rail against the video game industry or "communities"(as in not being specific but just being general to further their agenda). The starting point of logic is often a logical fallacy or assumption that the video game industry and culture was somehow built by men to keep women out. Like a conspiracy.

Yeah this. This wasn't meant to be a boy's only club, but gender roles dictated that it was a nerdy thing and that girls were all beautiful and not nerds. So you can kinda see how this isn't gaming's fault in the first place and is just a point of something else.

You know, I've given plenty of thought into the whole issue of sexism in the gaming community, but for all the pages and pages I've written and could continue to write, it all comes down to this:

Sexism is dumb; let's all just try to make video games a more friendly environment for everyone, regardless of sex and gender. Then the only people complaining will people who want to abuse video games as an excuse to be a dick. And then it just sucks to be them.
The End.

So.... How exactly is this helping anything when we all don't care about your sex, race, or gender when you play a game.

 

[Lilani]

Except here is the problem when people rail against the video game industry or "communities"(as in not being specific but just being general to further their agenda). The starting point of logic is often a logical fallacy or assumption that the video game industry and culture was somehow built by men to keep women out. Like a conspiracy.

Except, when women do become more prevalent in gaming and nerd culture and you see this much and this kind of backlash, don't you see why a lot of us perceive it that way? Personally, I grew up as an outcast who was friends with other female outcasts, and I didn't think of our group as much. Sure it was nice to have friends with other odd interests like me, but I never reveled in my presence being off-putting to others. And it certainly never offended me when others with different interests or values joined the group. I was a Christian and good friends with another girl who was a Pagan, and then we were friends with a Catholic and two Baptists. Some of them liked Doctor Who, some liked the PowerPuff Girls, some liked Twilight when it came out, some liked Harry Potter, some liked the Lord of the Rings, some liked the Rocky Horror Picture Show, and I liked Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy along with the Pagan girl.

And then there was a guy in my graphic design class who was convinced he was a werewolf. He tried to teach me Magic and gave me all of his cards when he and his friends decided to go back to playing Yu Gi Oh, but I never got too into it because they were done playing Magic and I didn't have any other friends to play it with.

So it's very jarring for me to imagine my eclectic childhood and then see so many guys getting absolutely choleric over the prospect of women getting anywhere near their precious video games. What I see is nothing less than pure impish outrage. "Look at all these women who hated us before, now they think we're cool! Well they aren't welcome here!" "They don't belong here, they hated us before and now they can't just titillate their way in!" "Attention whores!" "Sluts!"

The only explanations I can come up with are either spiteful resentment, or the idea that their "nerdy" groups of friends they formed did not value diversity, or strangers joining in whenever they wanted and with whatever interests they had. Their groups were exclusive, reveling in their exile from the "norm." If that's the case, then it makes perfect sense that they would be so threatened by people seeking them out. What they valued in being a nerd and a gamer wasn't playing games, at least not entirely. They liked being reclusive and pariah. That was their identity. So now that games are mainstream, and the people they ignored and were happily ignored by are knocking at their door, their perception of games is crumbling. Games were the thing that set them apart, and now women want in? The same women who reviled them in school? Absurd! If they want in, they're going to have to prove themselves worthy of being in our club!

When new people hung out with my nerdy friends, I never once saw any of them demand that the new person offer proof they truly belong with us. We just hung out. And if it lead us to be excluded by other groups of students, that was purely happenstance, and we certainly didn't enjoy being exiled for simply doing what we enjoyed. New people in our group weren't a threat to the norm--the norm was always fluctuating anyway. Nobody ever felt threatened a new person would change anything, at least anything that wasn't going to change at some point anyway.

So that is why I get the feeling some guys see games and nerd culture as a sort of exclusive club, rather than a ragtag collection of outcasts. Perhaps some resentment for past treatment from the mainstream is present as well, but from what I'm seeing whenever this topic comes up I truly believe there are some men out there who from the very beginning used games and nerd culture as a way of distancing themselves from others. They purposefully formed an "old boy's club" because it brought them comfort. Perhaps it was the only way for them to meet with their other nerdy friends who all happened to be guys as well, but if the backlash toward women wanting to join in on the fun is so intense, then they must hold it in great esteem that women were never a part of their group.

 

[bluepilot]

Though the first game I ever beat was "Rodland" on the amiga 500, ahh I miss joysticks

Oh God, I remember Rodland, I played that too. And Rainbow Islands. And New Zealand Story. And Bubble Bobble. And...

I got into gaming back in 1985(ish) when my junior school wheeled a BBC Micro into my classroom with Granny's Garden and The Wizards Revenge on it. I was 7 years old, and that was the first time I fell in love. In fact, I had to be physically prised off that Micro at the end of the day because I wanted to carry on and finish the games. Then Christmas '89 my parents bought me and my younger brother the Amiga 500 Batman Pack, and I never looked back.

I went to an all girl secondary school, but no-one else really played games. Didn't stop me doing it. Hell, I also went to ballet classes every night, so it's not like I was even your typical gaming nerd. I loved that Amiga and the games it had - Cannon Fodder, Speedball II, XCom, Ultima, Zool. Since then my collection has only increased, to the point where I think I might have more hardware and software than my local GAME store. I've even turned one of my spare bedrooms into a dedicated games room. OK, there's a second PS3 in my bedroom in case I can't be bothered to get up. Sue me.

It wasn't until I was older that I realised games were seen more as a boys thing. I went into IT as a career, and tudied computer programming at GCSE, A Level and Degree. As I went through school there were gradually less and less women doing the courses I was. I ended up going into the Web rather than games development, but if I'd known how to get a foot in that door, I'd have given it a shot.

Still, I walked into GAME the other day in my N7 tee, and had a couple of people sneak over to me and tell me it was brilliant. Had a reasonably long discussion with one of them over our Shep builds (I favour the FemShep Paragon Infiltrator, in case you're interested).

Ah, the Amiga. Those were good times. The day the cathode went on the screen, I died a little inside. I tried to get in repaired but they just do not make cathodes that big anymore...

I grew up the same as you, just playing games and unaware that it was a "boy" thing. In fact, the first time that I realised gaming was more of a boy thing was here on the escapist. I never realised that the identity surrounded by games was so loaded.

 

[Risingblade]

I don't get the point of this topic. Girl gamers exist? yeah we know .-.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't get the point of this topic. Girl gamers exist? yeah we know .-.

Well according to some we have to make ourselves known or we have no right to complain about anything ever.

So we better make sure we are super extra vocal about everything now! Won't that be fun!

 

[Tippy]

I'm sorry, but I can't figure this out. What on earth is your fucking point? Are you trying to say women don't deserve games that appeal to them because they as a collective haven't yet shown they are capable of desiring such things? Addressing any gender as a collective is childish thinking.

Look, I can do it too. Men on online multiplayer games are the most vile and repulsive thing ever to happen to video games. The moment they were given microphones they began to spew the most ignorant and destructive things to other people. Men and boys are a blight upon multiplayer games. I would say the vast majority I come across online have little interest in being remotely decent human beings.

And all of the men encourage it. Even by remaining silent when someone else is getting berated by the trolls, they are condoning and encouraging the behavior to continue. Because these things are allowed to happen, all men must be blamed for the behavior. It is the fault of all, and until it completely stops not a single male can claim they are not a part of the problem. They are the majority online, and so they must take responsibility. If they don't want to be blamed, then they have to man up and take care of it. I don't care if you don't say the words yourself--you have no room to be offended by anything that is done online, and because you haven't stopped it yet.

Absolutely correct.
And guess what? These vile men/boys are the reason most competetive multiplayer games even sell, because female gamers alone sure as hell aren't going to keep studios/developers afloat on their own. Multiplayer communities are full of trash talkers, friendly players, competetive pro's, newbies, etc etc. You have to learn to deal with (or ignore) all parts of it, I've done exactly that for all these years and have enjoyed my gaming experience.

You're the one getting offended by male behaviour, the males are in majority here...all I can say is rise above it. Sure, I'll be nice to you and treat you like an equal, but you know that a lot of guys will not. But we're not coming over to your homes and physically assaulting you, they're just words over the internet.

The gaming industry so far has had no problem with this sort of thing either, they continue to do what they do.

That is what I'm getting from you, Tippy. Women are either completely absent from or not featured appealingly in hardcore games because women as a collective have not risen up to solve the problem. Women have not accurately expressed their feelings, and so women are the sole cause of the problem and not a single one has any room to complain about the situation or claim to be innocent because the problem still exists.

Oh they have accurately expressed their feelings alright. That's why we've had so much feminist anger spilling over these boards for the past few months.

If you're going to sit here and complain about the percentages of women at cons. Frankly, I don't know, and I don't care. I know I personally don't go to cons simply because I can't. I don't live anywhere near any of them occur. So I can only speak for myself in that regard.

Cons were just an example really, I'm open to all sources and looking everywhere I can. When speaking about gaming populations it's impossible to say who is sittting behind the keyboard/television, so the best samples to draw from are ones where people make a physical appearance - internet cafe's (for gaming that is, not web surfing), LAN events, gaming expos/cons/tourneys, game developer staff photos, really anywhere that gamers show their faces. There number of females in all such places is in an absolute minority, it is undeniable. That's why I keep digging up whatever photos I can, because I don't have access to statistics I have to rely on what I CAN find. Do you have anything to contribute?

But what I will say is this: If you are going to sit here and blame every single female for problems generated by a lack of female participation to fix the problem, then I get to blame every single male for the condition of multiplayer games and Internet trolling for their lack of participation in fixing that problem. Is that a deal?

It's a done deal! The internet trolls and the aggressive twats in multiplayer are primarily male, no doubt about it. Males ARE partially at blame, and so are the females. I see the weaknesses of both sides, but sadly I see that one side is perfectly happy with the state of things (the males) while the other side is fighting (the females). Now I'm no genius, but guess who will have to do the work to get themselves noticed and heard? Guess who will have the uphill battle? It's not fair, I know, but the majority of gamers ARE men (and that hasn't changed) so it was never fair to begin with.

Our "deal" (where I get to blame women+men and you get to blame just men) basically does nothing to improve the state of gaming or increase percentage of female gamers - especially on the hardcore side. It really just leaves you where you are, and us where we are (and being male, I can run along with the current state of gaming for as long as it takes, I can adapt to the situation - can you?).

To put an interesting spin on things, during my time in gaming on several occasions I've convinced groups of people online that I was female (since I usually play a female character). They were definitely "nicer" to me, but also sometimes a bit condescending - that is, until I showed them who's can play better. Some were also trolls/jerks, as they will always exist. But I always have my flame-suit and troll-suit on when I go online, I wonder why women don't do the same and just ignore the empty threats thrown at them? Is it really that hard to declare that you're a girl and proceed to kick their ass?

In one of the largest communities (WoW) females are almost always welcome to guilds and accepted everywhere, even though it's often because of the "ooh it's a girl!" factor and less because of the "ooh it's a good player!". That's right, I see female players getting invited to raids and receiving special treatment even though their gear/performance is be sub-par. Whether they like getting treated like that is up to them, but so far I haven't seen the INSANE level of hostility that people in this thread claim to have witnessed. And the WoW community overall is actually pretty terrible.

So it's very jarring for me to imagine my eclectic childhood and then see so many guys getting absolutely choleric over the prospect of women getting anywhere near their precious video games. What I see is nothing less than pure impish outrage. "Look at all these women who hated us before, now they think we're cool! Well they aren't welcome here!" "They don't belong here, they hated us before and now they can't just titillate their way in!" "Attention whores!" "Sluts!"

I'm sorry for the terrible impression us male gamers have left on you, I can see why you hold onto your strong stances (rightfully so).
Be rest assured, I'm not that kind of guy. I hold no notions of exclusive clubs, I hold no resentment against women entering gaming, I wish my fellow bretheren would stop being massive twats towards you. But the internet isn't about to change, it's your move.
All I can say is that if I was a female gamer, I would show the world that I exist, I would either be an equal jerk/troll to fellow multiplayer addicts, or ignore all the hate that some guys sent at me, I would attend events (if I could), I would do my best to show the developers/publishers/stakeholders that female gamers CAN be considered good investment. I want to see the gaming competition fill up with women till they hit the 50% mark, why the hell not? I want to be able to discuss videogaming with girls as openly as I do with guys, why aren't most girls interested in what I did in Skyrim the night before? Shouldn't 42% of them be playing Skyrim?

Right now the industry just isn't convinced (like I'm not convinced) that 42% of gamers are female, there is no reason to believe it unless the fact is rubbed in their faces. Feminist movement has started the process, we'll see how far it goes.

Personally I have been never offended by anything I hear/read over the internet (or in multiplayer), if I was a woman that would not have changed whatsoever. Sure I would be a little bit angry at the oversexualization of females in some games, but I would relate that more to the fact that game developers are mostly male and some of them stoop low enough to titilate the mindset to make a quick buck (because the majority sets the trends).

 

[Risingblade]

I don't get the point of this topic. Girl gamers exist? yeah we know .-.

Well according to some we have to make ourselves known or we have no right to complain about anything ever.

So we better make sure we are super extra vocal about everything now! Won't that be fun!

Yay another vocal group in gaming...

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't get the point of this topic. Girl gamers exist? yeah we know .-.

Well according to some we have to make ourselves known or we have no right to complain about anything ever.

So we better make sure we are super extra vocal about everything now! Won't that be fun!

Yay another vocal group in gaming...

Haha

Don't worry yourself tiny foxlet I'm only being sarcastic :3

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I just can't stand this attitude of 'men are in the majority so how about you just deal with abuse, pandering and sexism.'

How about we don't and try and change things for the better. How about that.

It reminds me of the ridiculous argument men had about women voting. 'Well women aren't involved in politics so why should we allow them to vote there's no point'

It's a complete and utter bullshit backwards excuse.

 

[Risingblade]

I don't get the point of this topic. Girl gamers exist? yeah we know .-.

Well according to some we have to make ourselves known or we have no right to complain about anything ever.

So we better make sure we are super extra vocal about everything now! Won't that be fun!

Yay another vocal group in gaming...

Haha

Don't worry yourself tiny foxlet I'm only being sarcastic :3

Oh dear nine tailed fox gods you're a cruel vocal group as well! o.o

 

[Naroiden]

(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

Males even didn`t now what famale is, espacially kids. Are we should expected kids realize females can play games? Nope. They think females always in the kitchen and cooking something. Actually they know females can play games. They know it is not new. They just jealous females. They don`t want to belive it. Because they think, playing game is male thing and females won`t play games. It is just all about pride of manhood. That`s all.

 

[Mouse One]

The thing is, there's a lot of women gaming. But there aren't a lot of women in the "gaming community". Here, I'll define community as going to cons, being active on message boards, even just being willing to chat/join guilds/etc.

Hey, my wife gamed her entire life (her father tells me she hacked his Apple IIe to get high scores on Star Trek back when she was eight). We used to raid together on the University LAN system (PLATO) before the word internet was coined. In later days, she played MMOs. But she never ever voiced, and rarely even played female toons. She just didn't feel like dealing with it. This isn't some nervous teen, this was a professional gal in her thirties. She wouldn't break down in tears if she got harassed, but it's annoying, ya know?

And she sure as heck had better things to do than hang around on message boards trying to convince people she didn't know that it was okay for her to have fun playing "their" games.


You can't look at "people I know and game with" as representative of all gamers, any more than you can look at your immediate circle of friends and say they're representative of everyone in the city you live in.

 

[Mouse One]

Right now the industry just isn't convinced (like I'm not convinced) that 42% of gamers are female, there is no reason to believe it unless the fact is rubbed in their faces. Feminist movement has started the process, we'll see how far it goes.

Actually, those were industry sponsored studies. The people who bet literal millions on marketing demographics believe those statistics-- which have been fairly consistent over the last few years (there's been some recent methodology changes, but that mostly affected the average age stat).

So, no it's not a bunch of Ms. Magazine wielding gurrls who are fudging statistics for a political point.

 

[DeathStreamer]

It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not). Most recent example was when I was trying to choose between two games (ended up getting both, shut up it was my birthday) when some dude comes up and explains the games to me. Still, he was just trying to be polite so I didn't snap or anything, just kind of politely went `Um... Yeah... Yeah, I know.`
=P

If you're referring to the people employed at the store, then it's their job to come over and help you decide what game you want, or try and tell you about it to make you purchase it. If you're talking about some random guys who approach you because your in a game store inspecting some games and you happen to be female then they could be trying to do the same thing and trying to be nice, or they could be interested at the "unusual phenomenon" they seem to think stands before them, or it could be just as you say, they don't think you know much about games. Unless their tone is insulting (implying they are looking down on you), the first three possibilities stand to be more likely.

 

[Tippy]

snip

I just can't stand this attitude of 'men are in the majority so how about you just deal with abuse, pandering and sexism.'

How about we don't and try and change things for the better. How about that.

It reminds me of the ridiculous argument men had about women voting. 'Well women aren't involved in politics so why should we allow them to vote there's no point'

It's a complete and utter bullshit backwards excuse.

You don't really have a choice at the moment, it's going to take years for things to change.
So until it does, you have to put on your flame-suits and make your presence felt, like men have made THEIR presence felt for the last 20 years.

Shrug off the empty threats and insults thrown around the multiplayer and the internet (I've done it for years), come out of the shadows, kick some ass in gaming. I'm not talking to YOU specifically, but all female gamers.
(Even though I'm convinced like only ~10 girls browsing these forums and the other ~200 people are male--oh god there I go again)

Anyway, strength in numbers girls

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I just can't stand this attitude of 'men are in the majority so how about you just deal with abuse, pandering and sexism.'

How about we don't and try and change things for the better. How about that.

It reminds me of the ridiculous argument men had about women voting. 'Well women aren't involved in politics so why should we allow them to vote there's no point'

It's a complete and utter bullshit backwards excuse.

You don't really have a choice at the moment, it's going to take years for things to change.
So until it does, you have to put on your flame-suits and make your presence felt, like men have made THEIR presence felt for the last 20 years.

Shrug off the empty threats and insults thrown around the multiplayer and the internet (I've done it for years).

Strength in numbers.

If a guy wants to have a beef with me or my sex I'm going to respond like a female white shark with pups. I'm not going to sit there all demure and quietly put up with it. Things aren't going to change if we don't make a fuss.

Sod that.

Never mind me putting my flame suit on, they are due for some serious backdraft.

 

[Phasmal]

It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not). Most recent example was when I was trying to choose between two games (ended up getting both, shut up it was my birthday) when some dude comes up and explains the games to me. Still, he was just trying to be polite so I didn't snap or anything, just kind of politely went `Um... Yeah... Yeah, I know.`
=P

If you're referring to the people employed at the store, then it's their job to come over and help you decide what game you want, or try and tell you about it to make you purchase it. If you're talking about some random guys who approach you because your in a game store inspecting some games and you happen to be female then they could be trying to do the same thing and trying to be nice, or they could be interested at the "unusual phenomenon" they seem to think stands before them, or it could be just as you say, they don't think you know much about games. Unless their tone is insulting (implying they are looking down on you), the first three possibilities stand to be more likely.

No, I don't mean people employed there (that would be mental).
As stated, I don't think they mean to be rude, so I generally don't hold it against them. I'd love to have a conversation about the games with them, I'll talk games with anyone! But I don't want them explaining games to me. Unfortunately, the assumption is often that I don't know what I'm doing.
In that situation I don't really know what to do- If I say something like outright `I actually know. You don't need to explain`, it sounds harsh. If I hint that I know what I'm doing, it tends to go straight over their head. I just usually nod and let them get on with it.