Atheists and Theists are both right
- Thread starter Captain Blackout
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=O Opinions, opinions, opinions.
There was someone a long time ago with an opinion. He managed somehow to get millions, if not billions of people (today) to believe it. They changed their opinion in the face of a rationalization. That's what religion is. It's a pity some people can't deal with opposing opinions.
I just wish as a species we had the capacity to understand why it is several opposing rationalizations of our existence turn to war and chaos. Really... who cares what someone else thinks if in your opinion they're going to suffer for it?
This is thought provoking... but yet it is still an opinion.
I think we proved some time ago that Aristotle was wrong: the Earth is not the center of the universe (I'm not saying you said this, for you did not even hint at it.)
Philosophy aside... in comes an opinion: What kind of cosmic supreme energy/being/whatever would have the desire to sit on its theoretical arse and watch over this backwater lump of carbon floating in a vast expanse filled with a trillion to the exponent of a trillion lumps of carbon?
There was someone a long time ago with an opinion. He managed somehow to get millions, if not billions of people (today) to believe it. They changed their opinion in the face of a rationalization. That's what religion is. It's a pity some people can't deal with opposing opinions.
I just wish as a species we had the capacity to understand why it is several opposing rationalizations of our existence turn to war and chaos. Really... who cares what someone else thinks if in your opinion they're going to suffer for it?
This is thought provoking... but yet it is still an opinion.
Since when did religion have any practical use? In fact... who defines what "practical" is? As a species we're awfully egotistical to consider that our Webster's definitions of words (which we created) have a consequential effect on the universe which spawned us.Jaga Jazzist said:Well yes it's very easy to get everything 'figured out' when you're only rationalising things based on your own definitions and generalizations. But not everyone shares the same views on deism, theism or atheism as you do and I hardly think they'll be inclined to change their own definition of what life and love is based upon someone else's Tuesday evening ponderings.
I mean pointing out that there really is no 'better games console' because everyone likes different games doesn't seem to have worked and that's nowhere near as complex or important as, oh, the meaning of life.
Sorry
PS Where does Agnosticism fit into this?
Edit: I'm not saying necessarily it's a bad theory, it's just I think it has no practical use whatsoever.
I think we proved some time ago that Aristotle was wrong: the Earth is not the center of the universe (I'm not saying you said this, for you did not even hint at it.)
Philosophy aside... in comes an opinion: What kind of cosmic supreme energy/being/whatever would have the desire to sit on its theoretical arse and watch over this backwater lump of carbon floating in a vast expanse filled with a trillion to the exponent of a trillion lumps of carbon?
I am neither a female or a canine. You however are a crap monkey for trying to turn what's looking to be a good discussion into a prepubescent slap fest. Get lost.Delicious said:
Excellent shot sir!Captain Blackout said:
I now my next cannon with the reply: "Well, being a monkey the shit I throw at random bystanders is of twice the quality of the feces that you throw up on this webpage"
Prepare for evasive maneuvers men!
Fire!
Religion gives millions of people hope and a reason to live and be nice to other people. I live in a very religious community and there is a lot of religious talk about the place, mostly about how they can 'serve God by helping each other' etc. I'm aware that there are people that get by without having a god and do things because they want to be nice/because of karma but some people are completely lost without their God. I've heard so many stories about how people have been 'transformed' by accepting religion and while I personally don't believe in any kind of god, I still appreciate that it helps many people.Noose said:
But otherwise, yes. I think I reacted much too harshly in my first post and I apologise for my comments.
Ok, the heck with quoting. I hope folks are reading the thread and can keep up with me. If not I'm screwed.
Karma:
n.
Hinduism & Buddhism The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny.
Fate; destiny.
We have a theistic and atheistic definition of karma to work with. Whether you belief in destiny or not, we all have a fate in store for us if for no other reason then that the universe does work by laws and we will run into them whether we want to or not.
Pascal never met a good Maoist while worshipping at a Taoist temple. Murder does not need God. People will reach for the quickest justification they can which historically has been religion. Says more about people by far then it does about God.
"Being and non-being support each other." - Tao Te Jhing. God can exist and not exist. As I Taoist Christian I believe such a thing has happened.
Why would God sit back and let the world unfold? Because we need self-determination and free-will. Interfere too much and it's the flood all over again.
There is NOTHING inherently stupid about believing in a higher power. It's when we start ascribing qualities to that higher power that we can quickly run into trouble. Jesus took on the Pharisees for this very thing.
Douglas Adams is a genius but he's no Frank Herbert.
What's the crux of my arguement? Simply that we CAN'T answer some questions i.e. Does God exist. We have to choose. Atheism and Theism are choices. Whether you choose one or the other is not as important as what you do with that choice. Do you beat theists over the head for being superstitious? Do you beat atheists over the head with a bible? Or do you seek to understand those you do not agree with and build stronger communities in the process.
Karma:
n.
Hinduism & Buddhism The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny.
Fate; destiny.
We have a theistic and atheistic definition of karma to work with. Whether you belief in destiny or not, we all have a fate in store for us if for no other reason then that the universe does work by laws and we will run into them whether we want to or not.
Pascal never met a good Maoist while worshipping at a Taoist temple. Murder does not need God. People will reach for the quickest justification they can which historically has been religion. Says more about people by far then it does about God.
"Being and non-being support each other." - Tao Te Jhing. God can exist and not exist. As I Taoist Christian I believe such a thing has happened.
Why would God sit back and let the world unfold? Because we need self-determination and free-will. Interfere too much and it's the flood all over again.
There is NOTHING inherently stupid about believing in a higher power. It's when we start ascribing qualities to that higher power that we can quickly run into trouble. Jesus took on the Pharisees for this very thing.
Douglas Adams is a genius but he's no Frank Herbert.
What's the crux of my arguement? Simply that we CAN'T answer some questions i.e. Does God exist. We have to choose. Atheism and Theism are choices. Whether you choose one or the other is not as important as what you do with that choice. Do you beat theists over the head for being superstitious? Do you beat atheists over the head with a bible? Or do you seek to understand those you do not agree with and build stronger communities in the process.
How about you stop assuming everyone here is spoiling for a fight with you, and take a look back over the thread. What you have been saying is a blanket-statement assumption on all people of faith and the nature of their religion. This Crusade-like mnetality is what you fear from a religion, and yet you posses and espouse it as readily as a born again christian will 'the presence of the lord'.CapnGod said:
You want the religious to stop 'murdering non-believers' in a holy war, and yet you only meet religion with offence and balled fists. You need two sides to a brawl, how about you stop bieng one of them? Religion is only ever the excuse, like patriotism or partriachy, not the cause. It is an almost papal ignorance to decry 'religion' as the cause for problems when religion and violence are equal bi-products of human nature.
Now how about we try to have this discussion with some civility?
On the subject of religion human emotion is the most powerful factor. You have nothing to apologize for: you are as much entitled to your opinion as the fellow who quoted Kyle Gass is entitled to his own. I agree that such a reason as you mentioned would, on a planetary scale, be a delineation and a purpose as to why religion exists. As a self-proclaimed 'rational' and 'intelligent' species, we are imprisoned by our need to find a direction. Thank heaven most people are content with religion.Jaga Jazzist said:
But then we're sidestepping the entire question of theism and atheism and into William James' questions of the cash-value of ideas. Pure pragmatism is fine, but that doesn't make one group "right" (or even both groups). True, what we do with ourselves is the true measure of our influence on the world, but the fact that a person can be good while believing in god neither means that god *made* them good, nor that god exists as god (or as anything else supernatural). There is something inherently irrational (and thus unintelligent) about belief in a higher power. Except insofar as it gives you a happy feeling, to honestly believe in the supernatural is the quintessential definition of unreasonable behavior.Captain Blackout said:
There is *no* atheistic definition of karma. The two are opposing concepts. Fate in the theistic conception is wholly opposed to fate in the atheistic conception. The former deals with ones "just desserts". The latter deals with "how things eventually shake out". The former must eventually balance, the latter rarely does. Now, you can argue that the latter eventually does (over many lifetimes), but that's a dodge and an example of circular logic. In order to make the two forms coalesce, you have to twist the atheistic view into something unrecognizable.
Also, please don't quote religious leaders as proof of your religious views. It doesn't provide evidence any more than me quoting Christopher Hitchens. Once again, you're arguing from a dualistic stance: that both reason and belief are valid ways to achieve goodness. That's fine, but that's just sidestepping the atheist/theist divide, instead of resolving it. Basically, you're saying "just be good".
Edit: You're putting Frank "let's go completely nuts after the second book" Herbert as being better than Douglas Adams?
Gods do not exist.
For all the OP's well written points, there is no getting away from the fundamental truth that, as things stand presently, there is no evidence for gods or fairies at all. All the verbiage and long sentences do nothing toward proving this.
Belief in gods per se does not give these people the hope, it's their belief in them being part of a community. The ability to cheer ourselves up, to get through hard times with the help of 'god' is nothing but an innate human ability ascribed to a supernatural being.
That people find solace and hope in a sky-fairy does not mean that they exist.
For all the OP's well written points, there is no getting away from the fundamental truth that, as things stand presently, there is no evidence for gods or fairies at all. All the verbiage and long sentences do nothing toward proving this.
Belief in gods per se does not give these people the hope, it's their belief in them being part of a community. The ability to cheer ourselves up, to get through hard times with the help of 'god' is nothing but an innate human ability ascribed to a supernatural being.
That people find solace and hope in a sky-fairy does not mean that they exist.
