Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.

[CrimsonBlaze]

Kratos from Tales of Symphonia.

[http://photobucket.com/images/tales%20of%20symphonia%20kratos]

At first, he's a mercenary, so he's suspecious off the bat. Then, he turns out to be a nice guy. Until, of course, he reveals to be aligned with the bad guys. Then, he turns evil on you and tries to kill you. Later, however, you find out that he's not really evil, and also, Lloyd's father.

So yeah, great twist.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Bioshock: Ryan and Lamb both believed with all their hearts in ideals that sounded beautiful on paper. However, the practice and method of those ideals was completely evil. Examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Hell, for Ryan, most of his arc was watching him slowly lose those morals without realizing it, like when he (i.e, the government) took over Fontaine Futuristics just because. That's what made him so interesting to me.

Though, if you're happy with kowtowing to the just-as-racist-as-the-Nords Thalmor, and only desire to lick their boots until every last boot is clean, then by all means, side with the Empire.

I agree with everything you said, except for one thing: the Thalmor are not as racist as the nords, they are WAAAAAAAAAY more racist. After all, the Nords just want every non-nord out of Skyrim (and those are only the really hard-line, racist ones. Most make the distinction between the Thalmor and other elves). The Thalmor, on the other hand, want to not just kill every non-Altmer, they want to make it as if they never existed. There's a reason people call them Elven Nazis.

I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.

 

[liquidsolid]

Satan: I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and was always taught that Satan was the worst kind of evil. After growing up and shedding my childhood religion I began thinking about it more and more. I basically came up with this-

http://img2.ranker.com/user_node_img/6400/1000167104/full/good-guy-satan-good-guy-lucifer-the-devil-photo-u5.jpg

Satan and Lucifer are basically symbols for Individuality and freedom. God wants you to be humble so he can control you and he wants you to worship him and thank him for creation (which isn't all its cracked up to be especially considering AIDS and Malaria). God wants you to be reliant on him and Satan wants you to be reliant on yourself.

In a re-reading of biblical stories I've come to the conclusion that Satan is a hero for humanity and serves as a role model to us so that we might 'kill God" and become God ourselves, therefore creating our own meaning and values.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Bioshock: Ryan and Lamb both believed with all their hearts in ideals that sounded beautiful on paper. However, the practice and method of those ideals was completely evil. Examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Hell, for Ryan, most of his arc was watching him slowly lose those morals without realizing it, like when he (i.e, the government) took over Fontaine Futuristics just because. That's what made him so interesting to me.

Though, if you're happy with kowtowing to the just-as-racist-as-the-Nords Thalmor, and only desire to lick their boots until every last boot is clean, then by all means, side with the Empire.

I agree with everything you said, except for one thing: the Thalmor are not as racist as the nords, they are WAAAAAAAAAY more racist. After all, the Nords just want every non-nord out of Skyrim (and those are only the really hard-line, racist ones. Most make the distinction between the Thalmor and other elves). The Thalmor, on the other hand, want to not just kill every non-Altmer, they want to make it as if they never existed. There's a reason people call them Elven Nazis.

I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.

Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

Snip

That's a topic of some debate, though. Heinlein himself was very left-wing, so the prospect of him writing a non-satirical book praising fascism is just kind of weird. I'd say that it was misinterpreted by right-wingers, which was misinterpreted by left-wingers again. Welcome to the glorious world of politics.

Like i said, i'm only going on what i've heard given i haven't actually read the books, nor do i claim to know much about the mans politics. My knowledge can pretty much be summed up to the wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers#Controversy

I suppose it comes down to how different people interpret things. You could put half of those those same arguments to any number of things, from Call of Duty or Mass Effect or GTA or pretty much anything with a gun in it.

 

[Saulkar]

The Geth in ME 2. I am not spoilin anyting.

 

[William Ossiss]

Saren. Out of all the times you fight him, I know exactly where he is coming from.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.

Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.

This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.

Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.

This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.

To be fair, I'm glad that the Thalmor are not the big bads of this particular story, because they clearly are evil, there's no ambiguity, whereas I think the ambiguity is the most interesting part of Skyrim's story. Meanwhile, setting up the Thalmor for either DLC (on the scale of Shivering Isles, mind you) or the next game.

It's true that, as you say, the Thalmor hold the Empire on a tight leash, but that doesn't mean they can't rebel. I can easily see a sort of Cyrodiilic version of the Stormcloaks rising. Hell, for that matter, (and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in a while), but I believe that the remainder of the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. Even if you take the Nords out, that's still Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, likely a significant amount more of them than made up the actual Stormcloaks. Sure, it would take a while to get enough people to really fight, but 4 provinces is way better than 1. Helping the Thalmor now means their doom later.

 

[Lazy Kitty]

The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

How was the Empire made out to be evil?
They never seemed evil to me... At all...

I feel the ideal bad guy isn't evil for the sake of evil. One of my favorite villains is Kain from the Legacy of Kain series, more specifically in the Soul Reaver games.

Kain is the villain?
I thought he was the main character...
(I only played 2 of the Legacy of Cain series, starting with Blood Omen 2...)

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.

Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.

This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.

To be fair, I'm glad that the Thalmor are not the big bads of this particular story, because they clearly are evil, there's no ambiguity, whereas I think the ambiguity is the most interesting part of Skyrim's story. Meanwhile, setting up the Thalmor for either DLC (on the scale of Shivering Isles, mind you) or the next game.

It's true that, as you say, the Thalmor hold the Empire on a tight leash, but that doesn't mean they can't rebel. I can easily see a sort of Cyrodiilic version of the Stormcloaks rising. Hell, for that matter, (and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in a while), but I believe that the remainder of the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. Even if you take the Nords out, that's still Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, likely a significant amount more of them than made up the actual Stormcloaks. Sure, it would take a while to get enough people to really fight, but 4 provinces is way better than 1. Helping the Thalmor now means their doom later.

Well, in the dialogue somewhere, they were referencing either High Rock or Hammerfell, and saying how anti-imperial sentiment was mounting there as it is in Skyrim. And, if Ulfric is to be believed, many of the warriors who died fighting in the war with the elves were Nords, so they're either weakened now, or there's just that damn many of them.

But, unless the Empire (and the new emperor) take some pretty strong steps, it's gonna start fracturing. The Dominion wants it to remain as it is, because it grants them diplomatic powers and strongholds in the other regions. But, if they lose those (and you can bet the Stormcloaks would raid the hell out of the Embassy), then it would require acquiring a beachhead or ingress through land in order to truly attack them. Either way, the theater of war that they're establishing is a very interesting one. The dynamics at play have multiple motives and directions, and enormous, world shaping consequences are on every side. It's exciting.

 

[Ickorus]

Zulf from Bastion, poor bastard.

Spoiler: If you haven't had the pleasure of playing the game please do not read this.

He never really does anything inherently evil, he's just angry and to be honest who can blame him, his people were peaceful and the Caelondians still went and built a weapon to kill them all.

 

[Hal10k]

That's a topic of some debate, though. Heinlein himself was very left-wing, so the prospect of him writing a non-satirical book praising fascism is just kind of weird. I'd say that it was misinterpreted by right-wingers, which was misinterpreted by left-wingers again. Welcome to the glorious world of politics.

Heinlein was moderately left wing, but he was extremely pro-military. The book was essentially his manifesto on what the ideal modern military should be- non-compulsory, though offering massive benefits to those who enlist, well trained, well equipped, only deployed when necessary, and valuing the life of its soldiers above all else.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.

Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.

This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.

To be fair, I'm glad that the Thalmor are not the big bads of this particular story, because they clearly are evil, there's no ambiguity, whereas I think the ambiguity is the most interesting part of Skyrim's story. Meanwhile, setting up the Thalmor for either DLC (on the scale of Shivering Isles, mind you) or the next game.

It's true that, as you say, the Thalmor hold the Empire on a tight leash, but that doesn't mean they can't rebel. I can easily see a sort of Cyrodiilic version of the Stormcloaks rising. Hell, for that matter, (and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in a while), but I believe that the remainder of the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. Even if you take the Nords out, that's still Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, likely a significant amount more of them than made up the actual Stormcloaks. Sure, it would take a while to get enough people to really fight, but 4 provinces is way better than 1. Helping the Thalmor now means their doom later.

Well, in the dialogue somewhere, they were referencing either High Rock or Hammerfell, and saying how anti-imperial sentiment was mounting there as it is in Skyrim. And, if Ulfric is to be believed, many of the warriors who died fighting in the war with the elves were Nords, so they're either weakened now, or there's just that damn many of them.

But, unless the Empire (and the new emperor) take some pretty strong steps, it's gonna start fracturing. The Dominion wants it to remain as it is, because it grants them diplomatic powers and strongholds in the other regions. But, if they lose those (and you can bet the Stormcloaks would raid the hell out of the Embassy), then it would require acquiring a beachhead or ingress through land in order to truly attack them. Either way, the theater of war that they're establishing is a very interesting one. The dynamics at play have multiple motives and directions, and enormous, world shaping consequences are on every side. It's exciting.

I agree. I never really gave Bethesda much credit when it came to crafting their stories, but this is fantastic. I just with the Thalmor had a bit more of a role; they're a great addition if you are looking for them, but they're kinda too subtle if you aren't.

Zulf from Bastion, poor bastard.

Spoiler: If you haven't had the pleasure of playing the game please do not read this.

He never really does anything inherently evil, he's just angry and to be honest who can blame him, his people were peaceful and the Caelondians still went and built a weapon to kill them all.

Spoiler

Well, the Ura weren't all THAT peaceful. Keep in mind, they and Caelondia had just finished a bitter war. Also, keep Zia's Song [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8cELTdtw6U] in mind; if that's not a lightly-veiled threat from the Ura, I don't know what is.

I think it's more accurate to say that they were in a cold war.

That's not to say that the Caelondians weren't totally in the wrong, they were. After all, how did a weapon of last resort get used in peace time? And even if the Ura were somehow to blame, Zulf had every right to be angry.

 

[Endersgate1321]

Lets see if anyone can get this reference the formics were actually good while the humans were the ones who actually commited genocide

 

[DoPo]

Satan: I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and was always taught that Satan was the worst kind of evil. After growing up and shedding my childhood religion I began thinking about it more and more. I basically came up with this-

http://img2.ranker.com/user_node_img/6400/1000167104/full/good-guy-satan-good-guy-lucifer-the-devil-photo-u5.jpg

Satan and Lucifer are basically symbols for Individuality and freedom. God wants you to be humble so he can control you and he wants you to worship him and thank him for creation (which isn't all its cracked up to be especially considering AIDS and Malaria). God wants you to be reliant on him and Satan wants you to be reliant on yourself.

In a re-reading of biblical stories I've come to the conclusion that Satan is a hero for humanity and serves as a role model to us so that we might 'kill God" and become God ourselves, therefore creating our own meaning and values.

Oh, you will probably love Demon: the Fallen in that case. It is pretty much this all the way - Lucifer, and all who followed him, rebelled against scumbag God for humanity's sake.

Just a tip, if you ever decide to go into tabletop RPGs.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I would have to say Saren from mass effect. throughout the whole game you're led to believe he is the bad guy in all of it then in the end you find out he wasn't even in full control of himself.

Even better, he went in with the best of intentions: establishing a need for organics among the Reapers. The kicker? As we found out in ME2, that would have worked. Granted, the Collectors' fate is hardly ideal, but still.

Lets see if anyone can get this reference the formics were actually good while the humans were the ones who actually commited genocide

True, though the humans had no way of knowing and had every reason to believe the Buggers were still hostile. Plus, the way Ender ended up being blamed as if the xenocide was intentional was bullshit.

 

[targren]

Also Riku from Kingdom Hearts.

Spoiler

all they want is to protect Yeul (Caius) or Kairi (Riku)

Not sure I agree about Riku, at least in the first game. That's more of an instance of "doing bad things with good intentions" (the road to hell, and all...) which I don't think is exactly the same thing.

 

[Charli]

The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

I caught onto that pretty fast, and even went with the Empire soldier at the start. I realized I had just run into a bad run of luck and they were paranoid. Something seemed very off to me, with Ulfric and I have never immediately taken a dislike to such an unsuspecting dude, but something went off in my head like 'you are the bigger of two evils aren't you...'.



I was so glad when my suspisions about the rebellion were proven correct.
I'm a smug ***** that way.


The Thalmor though obviously, are the supreme jerks of Skyrim. No debating that anywhere.