Baldur's Gate EE: Siege of Dragonspear - Writing

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Is that really how they did it? Like just exposition and you reply with various degrees of clapping? Like its not organic or woven into a narrative or anything? Just some dudette dumped xer entire xerbag on the player?

That's such a misunderstanding of how that goes. 'cause I have a trans friend, and while I don't really understand her mindset, she doesn't go around telling her emotional life story to every passer by. Its very personal to her. Cards close to the chest type shit.

But that...that's just a mess. That's Sesame Street level lazy.

 

[Naldan]

Snip

I got all these already.

Doesn't sound too bad. I personally will wait for someone LPing it and then decide, but what now concerns me a lot are the character developements that diverge in this DLC and then return back in BGII. If I wanted that level of writing, I'd go and watch Dragon Ball Super.

I thik anything that could convince me fully now would be a full, direct transcript of many of the dialogues. When it works for me personally and is in-universe somehow, than all is good.

I pretty much own almost every major WRPG by now, if somebody intends to suggest other games to me. Thank you very much, but it's not necessary.

In regards to the transgender thing, I dont think Baldur's Gate has any spells/abilities based on gender, but screwing with those is where I would draw the line. If you have a male character who wants to live their life as a female, that's fine. My character might even be supportive of that. But if some siren/nereid/etc. uses an ability that affects all the men, that character better damn well make a saving trow. Otherwise we cross from social stance to absolute lunacy.

Isn't this often the case in so many games, though?

 

[Mechamorph]

Faerun is a long established and well beloved setting. Many of the original fanbase for Baldur's Gate were tabletop gamers as well so I would imagine a lot of us who played the games have a least a certain familiarity with it. Such issues have never been part of Realms Lore and for good reason. The issues themselves are irrelevant in the setting. Homosexuality is unlikely to be seen as anything untoward in a place where people routinely have children with other species. Transgenderism can be solved by spells, and not even a particularly rare or powerful spell even. It would not be that hard for most people to afford it after some saving up. Unlike real life, there are no painful operations or transition period. Walk into a wizard's storefront, plunk the gold on the table and six seconds later you can be another gender or even species if you so choose. The problems facing individuals due to their sexual orientation and acceptance from their families and peers have also been addressed in the fiction metaphorically through relationships between people of different species.

In the case of Beamdog, I do regard what they did as soapboxing and frankly I do find it a little disrespectful to the authors whose works have made Aber-Toril one of the most popular campaign settings. These progressive issues were never addressed directly because they had little impact on the story, the games or the fluff. On the other hand, we never see any discrimination against homosexuals or transgendered individuals either. If you are playing in someone else's yard, you are expected to be respectful. If by any chance you are allowed to write a story set in Westeros the fanbase will not take it well if you use that opportunity to espouse your political beliefs regardless of which side of the spectrum it falls on. If its your own setting and your own work, fine. Go nuts. Its your party and you can cry if you want to. Baldur's Gate is a great story but in essence it is the Hero's Journey, if you choose to turn it into your own version of "Atlas Shrugged" I cannot imagine that many of the fans will be very happy with you. In the end let the chips fall where they may, if Beamdog can keep selling expansions for Baldur's Gate and make a profit all the more power to them. If it turns out that the fans do not care for their brand of identity politics being shoehorned into a high fantasy setting then it is nothing more than a content producer misreading their customer base.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Yeah, and it was stupid then too. But I thought Bioware games had improved that? I mean did I dream the entire Mass Effect series and its progressive NPC characterization? I thought we were passed the time you could say all NPCs are written badly, therefore we don't have to try. After all, its only video game writing, amiright?!

 

[DementedSheep]

What is grating about Dragonspear is the distinctly preachy and out of place postmodern tone and the authors particular identity politics rewriting basic adventurer-y things like "offering to protect a woman" as unheroic.

The main writer for Siege of Dragonspear has a history of exactly what you said (preachy, out of place postmodern tone). She's done quite a bit of writing for Paizo in the past, though she only has cover credit for one module, the part of the Worldwound Incursion Adventure Path where effort is put to laying out that one character is a M2F trans lesbian despite that being wildly unlikely to actually come up in the course of running the content.

She's not quite "Gen Zed" levels of cringe-worthy, but she actively tries to be.

It's also worth noting that as ridiculously high magic as Forgotten Realms is, there's really no excuse to be "trans" in a meaningful way if you are at least skilled labor. There's literally magic to fix that, and if you do some math a skilled laborer could afford to have it done if (s)he was careful with their money for about a year, a bit more if they need significant travel to find someone to take care of it.

It's not like real life, in AD&D 2nd "transitioning" is literally a wave of the wand or putting on a "cursed" belt and no one is the wiser. That would seem to remove the need for a "trans" identity, since the ability to transition is so complete and so quick and in a high magic setting like the Forgotten Realms so available.

Heck, there was one of the gender swapping belts in the original BG, and the trans NPC doesn't react to it in any way.

Them having magic to fix that doesn't make this conversation nonsensical or change the fact that they would be trans. They still would have been born male and they still would have had to change their name (which is what is being talked about). The didn't go on a long spiel about how hard it is for them trapped in the wrong body or the discrimination they faced.

 

[sonofliber]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

 

[DementedSheep]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this was a quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

 

[sonofliber]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this a was quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

And how did you know they did? can i ask if they did? can i refer them to a better mage? No? she just drop that there and thats it?, oh look at that, thats called shitty writting.

Also you are literally saying that she is transgender for the sake of been transgender with the last bit.

 

[DementedSheep]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this a was quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

And how did you know they did? can i ask if they did? can i refer them to a better mage? No? she just drop that there and thats it?, oh look at that, thats called shitty writting.

Also you are literally saying that she is transgender for the sake of been transgender with the last bit.

They used the female model and the female voice for her so they probably did, it's just not explicitly stated. You think it would be more natural for you to question them on whether they used magic? or "refer them to a better mage" which would be really insulting?

As for them being transgender for the sake of being transgender, lots of minor NPCs have random traits and back-story stuff that are just there to make the world seem a bit more diverse and interesting. It's not an issue.

 

[sonofliber]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this a was quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

And how did you know they did? can i ask if they did? can i refer them to a better mage? No? she just drop that there and thats it?, oh look at that, thats called shitty writting.

Also you are literally saying that she is transgender for the sake of been transgender with the last bit.

They used the female model and the female voice for her so they probably did, it's just not explicitly stated. You think it would be more natural for you to question them on whether they used magic? or "recommend them a better mage" which would be really insulting?

As for them begin transgender for the sake of being transgender, lots of minor NPCs have random traits and back-story stuff that are just there to make the world seem a bit more diverse and interesting. It's not an issue.

How would recommend a better mage or myself if im a mage, be insulting when im trying to help him became what he feels he is?, but fine i already gave my point of view, honestly i dont care to argue about shitty representations of minorities in games, cause they dont do shit for the people in the real world, if you like them more power to you.

 

[DementedSheep]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this a was quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

And how did you know they did? can i ask if they did? can i refer them to a better mage? No? she just drop that there and thats it?, oh look at that, thats called shitty writting.

Also you are literally saying that she is transgender for the sake of been transgender with the last bit.

They used the female model and the female voice for her so they probably did, it's just not explicitly stated. You think it would be more natural for you to question them on whether they used magic? or "recommend them a better mage" which would be really insulting?

As for them begin transgender for the sake of being transgender, lots of minor NPCs have random traits and back-story stuff that are just there to make the world seem a bit more diverse and interesting. It's not an issue.

How would recommend a better mage or myself if im a mage, be insulting when im trying to help him became what he feels he is?, but fine i already gave my point of view, honestly i dont care to argue about shitty representations of minorities in games, cause they dont do shit for the people in the real world, if you like them more power to you.

It would insulting because you would be implying they look wrong when you have no indication at all that have any problem with their appearance. Would you recommend someone you just meet a plastic surgeon?

 

[sonofliber]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this a was quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

And how did you know they did? can i ask if they did? can i refer them to a better mage? No? she just drop that there and thats it?, oh look at that, thats called shitty writting.

Also you are literally saying that she is transgender for the sake of been transgender with the last bit.

They used the female model and the female voice for her so they probably did, it's just not explicitly stated. You think it would be more natural for you to question them on whether they used magic? or "recommend them a better mage" which would be really insulting?

As for them begin transgender for the sake of being transgender, lots of minor NPCs have random traits and back-story stuff that are just there to make the world seem a bit more diverse and interesting. It's not an issue.

How would recommend a better mage or myself if im a mage, be insulting when im trying to help him became what he feels he is?, but fine i already gave my point of view, honestly i dont care to argue about shitty representations of minorities in games, cause they dont do shit for the people in the real world, if you like them more power to you.

It would insulting because you would be implying they look wrong when you have no indication at all that have any problem with their appearance. Would you recommend someone you just meet a plastic surgeon?

Sorry didnt mean it like that, i meant that perhaps the wizard coudnt do it, or they coudnt afford it, not that they looked weird, i meant before their transmagicchange

 

[EternallyBored]

I don't know, I think in a world where you can change your gender at will through magic, changing your name is pointless, and an insult to your parents. The idea of "manly" or "womanly" names doesn't really make sense. It hardly makes sense in todays society. I mean, my name's Corey. Lots of women are named Corey. That doesn't make me want to change my name, it'd be like changing my name because it sounded too Jewish or something.

I've seen this crop up multiple times in the thread, so don't feel like I'm singling you out, but why do people seem to be under the impression that switching sex and species is so easy in this setting?

It's Faerun, as far as I remember outside of powerful cursed objects and really high level spell casters, of which only a few exist, permanent polymorphing is actually pretty rare and difficult, it's not something you can just pop down to the local apothecary for. If it was so easy, humans would be flooding in to have themselves turned into elves and other species with long lifespans. Even in BG the one gender switching item is a mysterious cursed artifact that stops working as soon as you take it off, and the character of Edwin only gets turned into a woman because he pissed Elminster off, the guy who's basically D&D Merlin. Permanently turning yourself into something is high level spellcasting, one in which the number of casters capable of it outside of your usual overpowered party of PC adventurers is going to be a very short list.

Seriously, gender switching spells are certainly possible in the setting, but where are people getting the idea that they are so easy to cast, all my experience with the setting is that permanent shape shifting is hard, not something a town wizard is going to be able to cast.

 

[loa]

Oh so they retcon characters? Not cool.
I also don't remember any overly misogynist or transphobic undertones from baldurs gate of all things.
Seemed more like a squeaky-clean adventure to me. Weird.

 

[DementedSheep]

You smell that? its the SJW shit getting where it doesnt make sense, o she is a transexsual? please tell me how she didnt yet go the fuck off to a wizard and have a sex change, because you know thats actually pretty easy in a place where magic is common, and theres an actual quest of that for one of your companions (hi edwina)

Honestly she/he/it could have been transspecies and it would have had the same frigging issue, go to a fucking wizard, right now you are a fucking attention whore (oh look at me im such a special snowflake, no you are not, there are probably more but they are smarter and went to the wizard) specially if i didnt ask for your backstory

How do you know they DIDN'T. All that happens is you ask why their name is a bit weird and they mention it is because they picked it themselves when they changed their gender.
From the way people talk you would think this a was quest chain about the hardships of being transgender and battling oppression rather than a tiny bit of flavour text for a minor, optional NPC that briefly brings up the fact that they were born a different gender and doesn't make it out to even be an issue.

And how did you know they did? can i ask if they did? can i refer them to a better mage? No? she just drop that there and thats it?, oh look at that, thats called shitty writting.

Also you are literally saying that she is transgender for the sake of been transgender with the last bit.

They used the female model and the female voice for her so they probably did, it's just not explicitly stated. You think it would be more natural for you to question them on whether they used magic? or "recommend them a better mage" which would be really insulting?

As for them begin transgender for the sake of being transgender, lots of minor NPCs have random traits and back-story stuff that are just there to make the world seem a bit more diverse and interesting. It's not an issue.

How would recommend a better mage or myself if im a mage, be insulting when im trying to help him became what he feels he is?, but fine i already gave my point of view, honestly i dont care to argue about shitty representations of minorities in games, cause they dont do shit for the people in the real world, if you like them more power to you.

It would insulting because you would be implying they look wrong when you have no indication at all that have any problem with their appearance. Would you recommend someone you just meet a plastic surgeon?

Sorry didnt mean it like that, i meant that perhaps the wizard coudnt do it, or they coudnt afford it, not that they looked weird, i meant before their transmagicchange

Fair enough then, but the fact that the conversation about them be trans starts from asking about their name, not confusion over their appearance and that they use the female model implies they "pass" fine at the very least. It would seem a bit forced to have dialogue for that IMO because while there is some ambiguity as to whether you could tell when the player only has a tiny generic model on the screen the PC wouldn't have that issue.

 

[EternallyBored]

Oh so they retcon characters? Not cool.
I also don't remember any overly misogynist or transphobic undertones from baldurs gate of all things.
Seemed more like a squeaky-clean adventure to me. Weird.

I've seen this crop up multiple times in the thread, so don't feel like I'm singling you out, but why do people seem to be under the impression that switching sex and species is so easy in this setting?

I always play the guy who can shapeshift.
It's as easy as hitting level 5.

Self shape shifting yeah, but your average town hedge wizard isn't level 5, and specific classes that shapeshift like Druids are implied to have been training their whole lives to commune with nature and take animal form and even then they can only transform into animals they have a connection to not just any animal or species they want. If we are talking about polymorphing, that has a time limit and specifically won't let you take on all the traits of powerful species, to avoid a low level wizard from just turning themselves into a dragon in every encounter.

Don't get me wrong, shapeshifting for PCs is easy, but most peasants aren't going to encounter even a level 5 wizard, much less an epic level spell caster capable of a permanent polymorph other spell.