Baldur's Gate EE: Siege of Dragonspear - Writing

[Phasmal]

Wow one whole transwoman and some feminism maybe, how very dare they.
Sorry, who are the easily offended people again?

I've seen various bitching about this game, but nothing actually offensive or bad, so I'm just going to assume it's the usual knicker-twisting over not very much.

 

[EternallyBored]

Seriously, gender switching spells are certainly possible in the setting, but where are people getting the idea that they are so easy to cast, all my experience with the setting is that permanent shape shifting is hard, not something a town wizard is going to be able to cast.

Disguise Self is a 1st level spell for a lot of casters. That's an illusion. But Alter Self is a second level spell for a lot of casters as well, and that's an actual change.

alter self lasts ten minutes per level. So, useful for quick getaways, distractions, and infiltration, not really useful if you want to permanently change your gender.

at level 10, they would be able to keep their appearance for less than 2 hours, and level 10 is around the level of elite battle mages and wizards that serve under minor lords, not your average hedge wizard casting charms for peasants.

EDIT: also, remember that PC levels are out of whack to make the game feel fun, with NPCs, a level 2 wizard is a wizard that has likely studied for years.

 

[EternallyBored]

Seriously, gender switching spells are certainly possible in the setting, but where are people getting the idea that they are so easy to cast, all my experience with the setting is that permanent shape shifting is hard, not something a town wizard is going to be able to cast.

Disguise Self is a 1st level spell for a lot of casters. That's an illusion. But Alter Self is a second level spell for a lot of casters as well, and that's an actual change.

alter self lasts ten minutes per level. So, useful for quick getaways, distractions, and infiltration, not really useful if you want to permanently change your gender.

at level 10, they would be able to keep their appearance for less than 2 hours, and level 10 is around the level of elite battle mages and wizards that serve under minor lords, not your average hedge maze casting charms for peasants.

Hmm, fair enough. What about making an intentionally cursed item? In the game, the Girld of Masculinity/Femininity that changes your gender has a value of 200gp, but I don't know if I can compare that with the actual cost and level requirements necessary to make it in the 2nd edition rules.

EDIT: Actually, holy shit, what if they had made it part of the game where the transgendered person in question hadn't been able to transition, and so you can give them the Belt?

2nd edition. You'd probably be looking at thousands of GP at an estimate, the belt should have sold for more you got ripped off for economy balance reasons. 2nd edition you would probably be best off enchanting an object but you'd still be looking at prohibitive costs to do it, something only the fantastically wealthy could afford.

Funnily enough, it would likely be cheaper in later editions as polymorph any object at level 8 would allow you to cast a permanent gender change spell directly, you would still be looking at enough GP that only nobility or filthy rich merchants could afford it as level 8 is still the kind of wizard you arent going to find hanging out in a peasant town, but it's still something you could see some rich people paying for. At least a DM would be likely to allow it, polymorph other object was retardedly broken in 3.5 and and a lot of DMs just flat out won't allow it to be permanent in order to avoid shit like turning your horses into unicorns and selling them for tens of thousands of gold or turning your party into dragons and then casting the spell again to obtain permanency.

Also, that's a good idea for the belt from the base game and now I wish you could have given to the NPC or at least had them comment on it.

 

[Mechamorph]

I've seen this crop up multiple times in the thread, so don't feel like I'm singling you out, but why do people seem to be under the impression that switching sex and species is so easy in this setting?

It's Faerun, as far as I remember outside of powerful cursed objects and really high level spell casters, of which only a few exist, permanent polymorphing is actually pretty rare and difficult, it's not something you can just pop down to the local apothecary for. If it was so easy, humans would be flooding in to have themselves turned into elves and other species with long lifespans. Even in BG the one gender switching item is a mysterious cursed artifact that stops working as soon as you take it off, and the character of Edwin only gets turned into a woman because he pissed Elminster off, the guy who's basically D&D Merlin. Permanently turning yourself into something is high level spellcasting, one in which the number of casters capable of it outside of your usual overpowered party of PC adventurers is going to be a very short list.

Seriously, gender switching spells are certainly possible in the setting, but where are people getting the idea that they are so easy to cast, all my experience with the setting is that permanent shape shifting is hard, not something a town wizard is going to be able to cast.

If you go by 2E rules, Polymorph Other is a 4th level spell (ie available at level 7) and has a duration of Permanent. Why do we assume that if someone is determined enough, they can get one? Blame it on the fluff that has 20th level or higher wizards coming out of the wazoo. Faerun is a very high powered setting with entire groups that can field dozens of mages at double digit levels including the War Wizards of Cormyr, Red Wizards of Thay, the Witches of Rashemen, The Harpers, The Zhentarium, the Haluurans (an entire NATION of mages), the elves in general and so on and so forth. The average large city probably does have at least one 7th level+ wizard in residence.

This is a setting where epic level spellcasters live in farming communities, run businesses and attend city councils. Making enough money without being an adventurer is admittedly more feasible using 3E rules since 2E hardly delves into it. However there are plenty of characters who might help you if you just ask them nicely. Like Alustriel of Silverymoon or Laeral Arunsun. Many powerful mages have been described as benevolent enough to help for free. Others like say, Vangerdahast, might demand a service to a crown or a cause first. Heck the Harpers might raise the money for you or cast the spell themselves if you can get the ear of one. And the thing is that many of these spellcasters are world famous with lower level spellcasters being locally famous. Easy? No. Feasible? Certainly.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

In regards to the transgender thing, I don't think Baldur's Gate has any spells/abilities based on gender, but screwing with those is where I would draw the line. If you have a male character who wants to live their life as a female, that's fine. My character might even be supportive of that. But if some siren/nereid/etc. uses an ability that affects all the men, that character better damn well make a saving trow. Otherwise we cross from social stance to absolute lunacy.

It probably wouldn't affect them... Because you know we are talking about magic here. It tends to work on a more metaphorical sense then scientific sense. Like magic isn't going to check for DNA markers.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Well sure, you can't say literally anything in Mass Effect. There is a script and they did have to pay the voice actors. But my point was when you first meet Samara and say hi, she doesn't just go "Oh did I tell you I used to be a mercenary who fucked a lot of people, also I have three daughters who are literal sex monsters and I've been hunting one of them for hundreds of years?! No?! Well let me tell you about how I used to be a mercenary who fucked a lot of people, also I have three daughters who are literal sex monsters and I've been hunting one of them for hundreds of years."

You actually had to talk to her multiple times, do quests, bring her on missions, motorboat dem funbags. You know, normal people(alien) stuff!

Same in KOTOR. You actually had to work on it. Talk with the characters, get to know them and spend time with them. Juhanni didn't tell you the most intimate personal details of her life just from asking her what her name is.

Maybe we have different points of view on this, but having NPCs that just dump so much personal information on you from the word go is archaic. A reflection of when games were that big or explorative and needed you fighting the giant dragon in the next few hours before the budget runs out.

If they want a trans character with a backstory, great! More power to them! But to do it in a such...lazy cop-out way and then just turn around and say 'Fuck the haters!' simply wasn't the right way to do it.

 

[RaikuFA]

Wow one whole transwoman and some feminism maybe, how very dare they.
Sorry, who are the easily offended people again?

I've seen various bitching about this game, but nothing actually offensive or bad, so I'm just going to assume it's the usual knicker-twisting over not very much.

From what I can gather, it's more that it feel
s forced and token-like.

 

[Mechamorph]

During the long, long timespan of 2E there were a lot of high level wizards introduced due to the novels but most of them came from adventure modules. I used to run 2E extensively and frankly it was flat out crazy. Shadowdale, a community of 15,000 people had three people who could cast 4th level arcane spells (Sylene, Elminster and Storm) while Lhaeo could easily use a scroll. Phlan, a settlement of less than 4000 people had a 17th level wizard. Ravensbluff, a city of 40,000, had a wizard of 35th level running a magic shop. And yes that was indeed shorthand for "no, you can't kill him" because he was ALSO a 35th level cleric.

It is true that high level NPCs became more common in 3E but that is with the introduction of entire races like the Sharn, the Shades and the Phaerimm whose game rules meant that every member of that race could cast powerful spells. Even in 2E Faerun was overrun with high level enough wizards that finding one would not be a real problem. Mainly because the DM needed a handy stick whenever the PCs got a little uppity but I digress. I believe that if you went to the D&D wiki and sought out 2E wizards of 7th level and above, the wiki would easily give you hundreds of names. That is the kind of setting Faerun was in 2E. 7th level, and the ability to cast Polymorph Other, was not even considered "high level". Most adventuring guilds would consider that "mid-level"; you are not a rookie anymore but you still have not earned a true name for yourself as a famous adventurer. That came at level 9 and it was considered the level at which an adventurer could earn a living as something else such as a captain of the guard or a royal tutor.

In fact in this case, 3E removed Polymorph Other in exchange for Polymorph affecting willing recipients. The need for the Polymorph Any Object spell (accessible only at level 17) is rendered moot as I would imagine that if you sought out a wizard to change genders, you would actually allow for the spell to work. 2E meant that a wizard could forcibly change you into something else with Polymorph Other, the main reason Polymorph was nerfed in 3E. Thus a 7th level wizard is more than sufficient for a permanent polymorph spell capable of changing someone's biological sex, something that was never that uncommon in Faerun. Granted it was because most parties tended to adventure in those level brackets. In Baldur's Gate, your party wizards could reach that level within a few in game months after all.

 

[Ftaghn To You Too]

The hamfistedness is only one aspect of what's wrong with Dragonspear's writing. It's consistently terrible, especially whenever humor is attempted.

 

[Objectable]

When it's for me, it?s good business. When it's not, it's pandering.

When it's for me, it's artistic freedom. When it's not, it's pandering.

If it's pandering, I can critique it. If it's good business or artistic freedom, critiquing it is censorship.

And politics? I ignore politics in games unless they're your politics. I don't want your politics in games.

That is the modern gamer.

 

[StatusNil]

Eh, the decisive point against Beamdog for me is not the minutiae of gender-bending magic in the setting, it's that it's blatantly obvious that they've taken a great, unifying classic of gaming (the original, allegedly "sexist" BG was THE ONE game that the female friend who built my PC when I decided to get back into gaming around the turn of the millennium INSISTED I buy... there was no arguing) and repositioned it as a partisan element in a deeply mischaracterized ongoing goddamn "culture war". The hi-larious meme rammed into Minsc's mouth about "ethics", as if the whole concept was a big fucking joke, is unmistakably one of those "wearing a blue bandanna in this 'hood means you're with the Crips" signals. As Baldur's Gate was one of my happiest memories, not just in gaming but out of everything, of the past bleak quarter of a century, I'm extremely disappointed and depressed with it being weaponized in this squalid manner into a bludgeon in the sordid squabble that the gaming scene has deteriorated into, thanks to the divisive belligerence of a certain strain of "progressive" activism. I truly believe that most people would just prefer to get along, and the constant pitting of girls vs. boys, "color" against "white", and this gender/sexual identity against that is only benefiting those profiting out of the zero-sum game, on whichever side of "the struggle".

With that in mind, it's a fair point that it's difficult to write "inclusively" without being accused of pandering to this belligerence. That's unfortunately the natural result of so much of the pandering going on, because deliberately sprinkling your pop culture product with obvious catch phrases (no use for the subtlety of "dog whistles" here) as cues for "the team" to cheer is so much easier than coming up with something that speaks to our common humanity, and also serves as an insurance against criticism. There should be no need to elaborate here, we've all seen the profusion of headlines stating "Only a Horrible, Sub-human Bigot Could Fail To Love 'Muh Increasingly Generic Blockbuster Part 9' Unreservedly!" Well, YOU'RE not a horrible, sub-human bigot, are you? Better get "fandom-ing" the hell out of it, buddy! Buying dat merch is the least you can do for the Struggle.

Contrast that with something carefully crafted, like "The Wire" on the ancient medium of Tele-Vision. It was a show about SYSTEMIC SOCIAL DYSFUNCTION, for crying out loud, and probably the most popular character was a gay, black criminal (Omar Little). That's not because it catered solely to a smug need to signal one's place on "the right side of history", but because it was written and acted with great (if I may be so bold as to employ the term) artistry that allowed the viewer to connect with the characters, rather than fetishizing their generic traits, as in "Hello, I am a gay, black criminal. Your task is to pay lip service to my oppressed status."

Then again, there was Xena, which was always pretty much a somewhat cheesy "Rah Rah, Girl Power Lesbians!" show, yet it never struck me as obnoxiously sticking it to anyone who wasn't one, in the manner of much of current Crusading Pop Culture (in all likelihood including the new Xena that is in the works). There didn't seem to be this layer of demanded party loyalty to alienate the viewer from rooting for the quite sweet love story it was. At least that's how I remember it. Maybe it was the context of the times, which was relatively free (compared to present day) of ubiquitous "pop culture" media leeches angling to mine it for conflict clicks. It's tremendously dispiriting to see people privileged to work in creative industries allying themselves with the bottom feeders in these days of great "social justice" to get a pass on half-assing their creations. Some may be aware that I myself am a little leery of the status of pop culture products as "Art", but that doesn't mean I love them less or think that their being sorted roughly into "culture wars" teams is any less detrimental to their potential for greatness. That is, not even being interpreted as "belonging" to some "side", but obviously conceived as such by their very creators from the start.

 

[Trunkage]

They don't use the term. One character tells you off if you offer to help another. You're not explaining anything, but it is made clear your help isn't needed. I actually think that exchange is kind of cute and fits with what that character may actually do. It isn't forced or anything and anyone calling it mansplaining is blowing it out of proportion and should relax a bit, there's enough else to get righteously indignant about considering this is Baldur's Freaking Gate and the work was not great.

I remember in the Witcher 3 there being instance of where Geralt is told off for helping. Which is even funnier when you realise that Geralt keeps going on about not wanting to help, particularly when it comes to politics. For example, you are told off for helping a women in Novograd.
But then mansplaining wasn't as a wide spread term by then.

As to the quality of writing. I haven't played it, but the original had pretty average writing so I don't expect much

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

snip.

Phlan in 2E makes sense having the high level NPC. It was the site of a looooooong couple of adventure modules that took part there. Involving a city that was invaded and most of it divied up by resistance and refugees, and invaders, and those creatures beneath the city. It's been almost 20 years, but I remnember that in the little canton right beside the humanoid controlled part where the AMs set you up as level 1~3 place to gather... our party accessed the further metaplot by diving into an old well right outside the barricaded part of the city. When we paid a handful of mercenaries to help us secure it from..... orcs? No .... all I remember is the ogre that came barreling towards us that we kind of needed help to keep it off us so that we could get down the well.

Anyways, the point is that even in 2E or even 3.x that high level magic wasn't actually that common without plot-related stuff. In the campaign builder section of the DMG, even in 3.5, had suggested NPC ratios of the 4 non-PC classes basically served to point out; "DM NPCs are your friends..." because sure as shit you weren't going to find someone high level enough to do what you want
(barring cheap meat shields to hire) unless there was a plot-based/DM NPC. Most DM hand wave the idea of having to find a merchant willing to buy that Ring of Protection +3 anywhere smaller than a town, but it's nonetheless the suggested rules in a standard-as-the-writers-conceived-campaign.

The people saying that FR was full of accessible magic either haven't read the suggested books, or basing their knowledge exclusively on characters pulled from specific adventure modules ... which, as the very term 'adventure' should suggest, were uncommon villains and allies to begin with. It costs you a copper a day to survive as a peasant in a town and only by going by the rates of how much you have to pay to man a ship suggest that no one but adventurers can afford a 5th level spell.

Not only that ... you're also talking about a setting that;

A: Would demand anybody receiving a Polymorph be most likely a very, very slim few of surviving adventurers to be able to afford it. Most adventurers that make it to level 9 are powerful individuals in their own light. They are likely the most powerful thing in a mid sized town on their own as per campaign building suggestions of NPC availability.

This is part of the reason why they invented the 'Mob' template monster. A swarmesque rules type .... so that a DM can have instant access to a monster in the DMG2 to unleash on a mage stupid enough to cast a fireball in the middle of a crowded market. Likely auto kills a level 5 or lower d6 HD PC that it moves onto unless they just so happen to have 'Fly' memorised and the DM is being nice and spawning the mob outside move range.

B: Talking about people who for the most part are likely stationary individuals, who have to deal with their families and friends on a daily basis. Even in larger cities. Have you seen what lurks on the roads? Hell, moving from 'Dale to 'Dale alone calls for an encounter as per the campaign guidebook and RAW. So pretending that wouldn't be a source of tension, even in those people who could afford it, is also an assumption.

-------------------------------

So I don't see the argunment why trans issues wouldn't arise. Hell, I could see trans people seeking adventuring as the only possible option. And basically by level 9 you've stabbed a troll in the face and set fire to their corpse. You're going to straight up and blunt about it ... "Why do you want a place in our party?", "Because I need it, here's why, and as you can see I killed a dragon large enough to make a rocking piece of leather armour ... Do I have the job?"

Let's face it. Adventuring parties are going to spend a lot of time together without armour and clothes. Pretending like the topic isn't going to come up is asking for a lot come the suspension of disbelief. So I can understand why somebody trans would be upfront come recruitment.

I'm not saying it's good writing, or well handled, but the arguments brought up in this thread about 'setting' are ridiculous. If the video games are supposed to emulate the reality of Toril, then those talking about 'setting' as a reason trans people wouldn't be open about being trans either don't know Toril or haven't actually given the argument any thought. (edit) If you happen to be trans, are still a few thousand gold pieces away (basically the accumulated life savings of an entire township), and you've been met with some egotistical clerics talking about the nature of the gods creating the world (and people) as to be how it's supposed to be, you're going to be open about it by necessity.

 

[Phasmal]

Wow one whole transwoman and some feminism maybe, how very dare they.
Sorry, who are the easily offended people again?

I've seen various bitching about this game, but nothing actually offensive or bad, so I'm just going to assume it's the usual knicker-twisting over not very much.

From what I can gather, it's more that it feel
s forced and token-like.

I'm sure that's the argument, but I'm not buying it.
Video-game writing often feels forced. Hell, recently when I played Uncharted for the first time I couldn't believe some of the silly dialogue between Nathan and Sully, it's very: "Hey, remember how we both like to have sex with women?", "Yes, Nathan, I too am reassuringly heterosexual". Quite stilted.
And as for tokenism, well, if they dared put more than one character in, it would be an example of SJW's taking over again. So they stick with, for example, one transwoman. But no, that's tokenism, let's blow up about it.

It's the same old crap. I very much doubt there is any way they could have done these things, things they wanted to do, without this bullshit happening.
But whatever. Developer choices are sacred, except when they're not.

 

[Superbeast]

I'm not saying it it's good writing, but the arguments brought up in this thread about 'setting' are ridiculous.

Speaking of setting, this is really interesting:

I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it.

Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn't a sex game, and we generally don't rub the reader's nose in sex unless there's a good in-story reason for it.

But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE) have sometimes been forced by the deity to "spend time as the other" to learn what life is like.

So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I've never met a gamer yet who doesn't tinker with every adventure to "make it their own" at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don't suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.

But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn't blow your mind. If it's not for you, that's fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don't scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn't extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn't been rectified, no one made me a god. (I'm still crushed.)

https://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142/posts/10156746522575453?fref=nf

That's the creator of Forgotten Realms weighing in on whether trans is canon or not.

Given you have to go through several dialogue options to even get to this (emphasis mine):

Mizhena, a cleric in the game, explains the origins behind her unusual name in a dialogue tree if the player questions her about it. "I created the name myself several years ago," Mizhena says, adding: "My birth name proved unsuitable." When the player asks what was wrong with her old name, she continues: "When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and raised me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. I created my new name from syllables of different languages. All have special meaning to me, it is the truest reflection of who I am."

http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/972903-gamers-flood-baldurs-gate-expansion-negative-reviews-introduces-transsexual-character#uoxBTQ6YkYkV8TAK.99

I hardly think you can accuse this of being "forced". People are naturally responding in the calm and collected manor one expects from the gaming community:

A video titled 'Tranny Abuse' in which the player kills Mizhena after she reveals herself to be a transgender, has also been uploaded to YouTube, attracting over 13,000 views and over 350 likes, with the uploader writing: "It's refreshing to see that nearly everyone, even a lot of neutral folks, consider this a bastardization of a classic game world. Beamdog dug themselves a hole that their company will never recover from now. Any potential Baldur's Gate 3 they develop will fail due to people now knowing how little they care for the license."

http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/972903-gamers-flood-baldurs-gate-expansion-negative-reviews-introduces-transsexual-character#uoxBTQ6YkYkV8TAK.99

?I tip my hat to you, my good sir. Keep the world clean of this shit,? writes Christopher Jacobsen in the comments.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/269735/Opinion_The_Siege_of_Dragonspear_drama_and_the_video_game_community.php

It is also worth noting that Niche Gamer cites this video as part of their article on the matter, and this is their take on "tranny abuse":

The above video shows a shopkeep, who appears frequently during the game, going into detail about the path she took towards discovering her true gender identity. While by itself it might not be considered much to show concern towards, various other modern-day themes have cropped up in the fantasy epic.

http://nichegamer.com/2016/04/03/beamdog-addresses-problematic-content-baldurs-gate/

Speaking of the common complaint that "SJWs" don't even own the games they're complaining about:

The game currently sits at a 3.6 out of 10 on Metacritic's user reviews section and 2 out of 5 on GOG, though has a Mostly Positive rating on Steam. Coincidentally, this is the only one of those three platforms that requires the user to own the game they're reviewing.

http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/972903-gamers-flood-baldurs-gate-expansion-negative-reviews-introduces-transsexual-character#uoxBTQ6YkYkV8TAK.99

There's also a bit of a double-standard in arguments used by some (note the emphasis) people, around the idea of "if you don't like it, don't play it" and "artsitic vision is sacrosanct":

In short, she reveals she?s a trans woman. This is what occasioned so much outrage and even prompted some gamers to call for Beamdog to remove ?the offending content.?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/269735/Opinion_The_Siege_of_Dragonspear_drama_and_the_video_game_community.php

 

[Stewie Plisken]

I'm sure that's the argument, but I'm not buying it.
Video-game writing often feels forced. Hell, recently when I played Uncharted for the first time I couldn't believe some of the silly dialogue between Nathan and Sully, it's very: "Hey, remember how we both like to have sex with women?", "Yes, Nathan, I too am reassuringly heterosexual". Quite stilted.
And as for tokenism, well, if they dared put more than one character in, it would be an example of SJW's taking over again. So they stick with, for example, one transwoman. But no, that's tokenism, let's blow up about it.

It's the same old crap. I very much doubt there is any way they could have done these things, things they wanted to do, without this bullshit happening.
But whatever. Developer choices are sacred, except when they're not.

You're being mighty presumptuous about this. Generally, the discussion, both here and elsewhere seems to focus on the trans character. Aside from the trans character, there is the GamerGate jab. There is Amber Scott's post that she's "a proud SJW", where she makes the statement she consciously creates diverse characters (good) and doesn't care what people think about it (not necessarily good). Of course, there's also the interview on Kotaku, where she displays disregard for the original material, indirectly displays disregard for the players of that game and says that Safana got a "way better personality upgrade".

And, of course, there's also the issue of the game allegedly just not being very good. This matters more than most people seem to realize.

Incidentally, a lot of these controversies would find a resolution far quicker if people didn't obsess over one element and covered these subjects in their entirety.