Baldur's Gate EE: Siege of Dragonspear - Writing

[Mechamorph]

SNIP

Firstly why would someone go through that level of contrivance to get Polymorph Other cast on them when there are so many mages around? My point is that this is the Realms we are talking about. There are plenty of powerful casters everywhere. In every geographical region including under the sea, under the ground and depending on how the dragons are feeling today, up in the sky. Entire races are magical, entire nations are magical, there are so many powerful mages that they have formed various competing groups. Many of them are world famous if not locally famous. If you live in Cormyr, go look up the War Wizards. If you live in Shadowdale, creep softly to that door surrounded by the INCREDIBLY scary warning signs and hope Elminster is in a VERY good mood. If you are Waterdhavian, you might not know Khelben Blackstaff on sight but you darned well know who lives in his tower. If you are one of the lucky, lucky few who live in Silverymoon go petition Alustriel. She has a palace, can't miss it. Look for the biggest, shinest building.

I disagree that people do not know magic. They personally can't cast spells but they do know of it. They have a rough idea what magic can do, including changing a person's shape. They are familiar with magic since so many mages live among them that you might walk past one on the street. I would imagine that if magic were still a mysterious and dangerous force, they would run like hell at the sight of a mage. After all this is a setting where many have suffered due to the acts of evil individual mages like alone groups like the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhentarium or the Red Wizards, some of whom run entire countries. If indeed, one has such experiences and one cannot distinguish a good mage from an evil mage or a powerful archwizard from a rank apprentice, why would anyone not run at the sight of a wizard? It might be a necromancer out for fresh bodies or a transmuter looking for more cannon fodder. Magic is so familiar to the people of Faerun, it would be like people living in the Marvel Universe being ignorant that superheroes exist. There are regional feats in 3E that even allows for people to cast cantrips (as noted by Eacaraxe), keep their own spell books and even use spell completion items. Magic is neither rare nor mysterious to these people. The average peasant might not have any ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana but he definitely knows what magic can do. Hell, if you live in the right place, you might get to see epic mage duels every so often when Elminster or the Simbul duke it out with this week's cabal of evil mages.

I have been using 2E rules in this discussion so Polymorph Other is a 4th level spell rather than a 5th level spell like in BG but I am afraid I have to tap into 3E for earning potential since 2E hardly mentioned it at all. Take it that the average peasant has 4 ranks in Profession because why wouldn't you? At +0WIS modifier and assuming statistically the peasant would roll a 10 for every Profession check, the average peasant would earn 7gp per week or about 28gp per month. It turns out that hard work is more profitable that singing for your supper. And they said AD&D never taught us anything morally upright. If you assume 450gp to be the asking price for Polymorph Other then its about 15 months of wages or charitably about 5 years worth of savings. Hard going yes but not exactly a mountain to climb.

By the by if your DM in 3E was giving you less than 450gp per burned village, that fellow was seriously shortchanging you! RAW, 64 commoners is a CR 6 encounter and should yield about 1600-2000gp in treasure. Hey I never said that 3E was sane or made sense!

In just about any other setting, I'd agree with you that first level adventurers are heroes in the making. Faerun however is crawling with them. If you took everyone with a PC class and stuffed them on Evermeet, I am willing to bet that the place would have the population density of Hong Kong. There are just so many of them in all the media that its not unusual to meet an adventure, or a whole party, at the local inn at least once in your life. If we take ~28gp a month to be what a level 1 commoner would earn it would make perfect sense that level 1 adventurers have the gold they do. Its a few years of saving your pay from on the job training. As for 200gp.... that was the maximum starting gold for a Warrior in 2E. Too little to even buy banded mail if you wanted a weapon too. Sad, so sad. To think that Field Plate cost 2000gp back then. It was honestly more profitable mugging knights using the sleep spell than it was raiding goblins. Ultimately the math does check out, getting a wizard in 2E to cast polymorph other is more a business transaction than anything else. As Eacaraxe noted, it does not have to be all in cash; it could be in kind, services or installments. Still it would be a GOOD idea to check the alignment of the caster first. Evil people might be bad but Chaotic Neutral is right out.

 

[Kolyarut]

Still it would be a GOOD idea to check the alignment of the caster first. Evil people might be bad but Chaotic Neutral is right out.

"Honey, we went to the city to get you a mage, but you didn't tell us there were so many kinds of mages! They had wizards, they had specialist mages, they had multiclass mages, they had sorcerers, they had psionicists, they had all sorts, so we got you a wild mage who was VERY reasonably priced. Is a wild mage okay for you?"

 

[Mechamorph]

"Honey, we went to the city to get you a mage, but you didn't tell us there were so many kinds of mages! They had wizards, they had specialist mages, they had multiclass mages, they had sorcerers, they had psionicists, they had all sorts, so we got you a wild mage who was VERY reasonably priced. Is a wild mage okay for you?"

"Dear, this is about the time I cheated on you with your sister isn't it? I told you, it did not mean anything. We were both terribly drunk on dwarven ale. I am truly sorry it happened. Look I love you very much so for the LOVE OF MYSTRA KEEP THAT PERSON AWAY FROM ME!"

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

snip

But that's just the thing. You're wrong. There's nothing to suggust anything of what you say especially in 3E. You're making a value judgment on something you feel is true when it is directly addressed by the subject matter itself. Whether the PHG, DMGs, PGtFs, FRCS ... it's a bad value judgement to say that; "What I feel about the novels tells me..." When it's considered garbage to the companion texts of the setting that give numbers.

(Edit) You know that there is literally only one town they called a 'haven for adventurers' in the entire Cormyr section of the FRCS? One. I'm reading it myself, right now. So you'll forgive me, but you haven't made a very good case. Particularly when the campaign books telling you about the cultures of the realms is saying; "Well, yeah ... heroes are heroic for a reason."

So, you'll also point for me, how many town lords in the FRCS 3E that could cast an 8th level spell? You have yet to prove it's 'contrived' ... and I'm sorry, your sentiments on the matter don't mean a damn thing, because if I were making the game I'd be in my full rights if I made Wizards as uncommon as they say they are, it would also be true to the setting. As you say, my sentiments. And it would conform to everything written in the books.

 

[Mechamorph]

But that's just the thing. You're wrong. There's nothing to suggust anything of what you say especially in 3E. You're making a value judgement on something you feel is true when it is directly addressed by the subject matter itself. Whether the PHG, DMGs, PGtFs ... it's a bad value judgement to say that; "What I feel about the novels tells me..." When it's considered garbage to the companion texts of the setting.

"..."

You mean the PHB and DMG which are supposed to be based on Oerth, the setting for Greyhawk? Or the Player's Guide to Faerun which does not actually speak about magic in the context of the society of Faerun? The one that is mainly regional feats, setting updates and rules updates? You mean the material published in 3E when most of this time I have been speaking about 2E rules and the campaign setting as it was in 2E?

I presume you mean the Campaign Guide to Faerun for 3E which states that approximately 1/100 people can use arcane magic. Of which half are only dabblers with maybe only a level or two in the class. Let's take it that out of the people who can use magic, maybe 10% are high level enough to cast Polymorph Other. In a medium sized city of about say, 20,000 people, 200 can cast arcane spells. Of which 100 are basically apprentices and 20 are nearing name level. Yes, you might have to travel if you live in a hamlet of 400 people but its hardly an insurmountable problem. Shadowdale after all is supposed to be a sleepy backwater but going from the statistics in the book, at 15,000 people it has 150 mages of which 75 have gone beyond just mere cantrips. Pretty much having the ability to cast arcane spells in Faerun is more or less equivalent to the high end of the proportion of left-handed people on Earth.

The Campaign Guide also states that magic rarely enters the life of the average person. In this context it means you have to seek out magic for your own purposes. Since on average, any settlement with at least 100 people has at least 1 arcane caster, there should be someone you could potentially consult. So as I have consistently said, not easy but not exactly balls out impossible or improbable. Way more probable than tripping over a Ring of Spellstoring containing Polymorph Other that you somehow figure out how to cast.

Does the Campaign Guide also talk about people fearing mages? Yes. In the same paragraphs it also talks about mages being accepted into communities, usually becoming valued and trusted members of their new home. They even note that a friendly arcanist is usually the first line of defense when a hostile mage appears. There are so many mages that Magefairs are an annual event for any settlement that houses about a dozen or so wizards. So any settlement of about 1200-2400 people, pretty much a large town. So ask your local wisewoman about it, she might point you to a large town with a dozen wizards in residence. If by any chance none of them can help you, they can probably barter for the means at the next magefair. This might cost you a premium so you fork over 2 years worth of wages to get the spell cast on you. Not exactly a trip into Undermountain is it?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I presume you mean the Campaign Guide to Faerun for 3E which states that approximately 1/100 people can use arcane magic.

And you'll point me to the grand number of cities, in the FRCS, in say .... Cormyr ... with a population of over 20,000? Dalelands? Tethyr? Sembia? Suzail is the capital of Cormyr and it doesn't break 50 thousand. That's Cormyr. A nation with 1.4 million by 3E. Hell, as per RAW Suzail is the only place in Cormyr you could technically sell a decent spellcasting service. One of the entirety of Mistledale's prime spellcasting service personas that people can reliably know about is a 7th level cleric.

Secondly, not all arcane users are 'Wizards', they could be bards or adepts ... there is a difference between PC classes, and NPC classes in 3E. An 'Arcane user' could easily be an Adept with a handful of spells, or a rudimentary understanding of how to use magical items. Which is, as per the books again, the most likely situation. In which a rogue could be considered an 'arcane dabbler' by any collection of country bumpkins by making a suitably impressive UMD roll.

Someone who is unlikely as to know any professional wizard either capable, or even willing, to help someone. So dare I say, it does seems incredibly improbable. More over, I don't exactly see why a person would then still not consider themselves trans afterward, regardless. We both know magic is a fickle thing in the Realms, and even with magic it still wouldn't reduce a person's identity to simply that magic. Point is that I can very much see why people would be candid about it. To be able to access said services as per RAW, they're going to be an adventurer. That is the mostly likely way of things. I also don't see the logic that magic is considered all that utilitarian. Hell, you need a patron deity to be a druid.

 

[Mechamorph]

And you'll point me to the grand number of cities, in the FRCS, in say .... Cormyr ... with a population of over 20,000? Dalelands? Tethyr? Sembia? Suzail is the capital of Cormyr and it doesn't break 50 thousand. That's Cormyr. A nation with 1.4 million by 3E.

Secondly, not all arcane users are 'Wizards' ... you do understand the difference between PC classes, and NPC classes in 3E? An 'Arcane user' couuld easily be an Adept with a handful of spells, or an rudimentary understanding of how to use magical items. Which is, as per the books again, the most likely situation. In which a rogue could be considered an 'arcane dabbler' by any collection of country bumpkins by making a suitable impressive UMD roll.

Hmm, off the top of my head, Suzail, Marsember and Arabel? There may be more but none come to mind. Still as I said, it does not take a mid-sized city of 20,000 when a mid-sized town of about 2,400 will do. Much, much more feasible. It is like wanting to go to a department store but instead of driving to the next town, you decide to drive all the way across the country to the largest department store available. Sure you could do it but why would you?

And yes, I am quite familiar with PC and NPC classes. After all many of us were quite pleased that the Sorceror returned in 3E after being absent in 2E. Regarding NPC classes that is why I said that about 50% of arcane casters do not have any real magical ability to speak of and I also believe that was the intention of the author. However Polymorph IS an adept spell so if we go by the 2E ruleset, Polymorph Other ought to be in their repertoire as well. So any sufficiently powerful, and admittedly REALLY rare, adept will suffice. In fact adepts are divine casters so they always know the entire spell list, it is a matter of praying for the right spell. I had almost forgotten about that until you jostled my memory. And yes now that you mention it, any rogue who can get his hands on a scroll can help you. Thank you I had almost forgotten. 2E also let them use scrolls after all if they make their percentile roll. 3E made it much easier since a UMD check is easier to pass at that level compared to the old percentage roll. I would presume that the author does not count the rogues under the 1/100 statistic so I guess that getting that biological sex change now got even easier?

EDIT: Just checked the Campaign Guide and it reads "1/100 have any ability as a wizard or a sorceror" so my apologies for misquoting. Thus the number of adepts actually does not fall under the statistic.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Hmm, off the top of my head, Suzail, Marsember and Arabel? There may be more but none come to mind. Still as I said, it does not take a mid-sized city of 20,000 when a mid-sized town of about 2,400 will do. Much, much more feasible. It is like wanting to go to a department store but instead of driving to the next town, you decide to drive all the way across the country to the largest department store available. Sure you could do it but why would you?

And yes, I am quite familiar with PC and NPC classes. After all many of us were quite pleased that the Sorceror returned in 3E after being absent in 2E. Regarding NPC classes that is why I said that about 50% of arcane casters do not have any real magical ability to speak of and I also believe that was the intention of the author. However Polymorph IS an adept spell so if we go by the 2E ruleset, Polymorph Other ought to be in their repertoire as well. So any sufficiently powerful, and admittedly REALLY rare, adept will suffice. In fact adepts are divine casters so they always know the entire spell list, it is a matter of praying for the right spell. I had almost forgotten about that until you jostled my memory. And yes now that you mention it, any rogue who can get his hands on a scroll can help you. Thank you I had almost forgotten. 2E also let them use scrolls after all if they make their percentile roll. 3E made it much easier since a UMD check is easier to pass at that level compared to the old percentage roll. I would presume that the author does not count the rogues under the 1/100 statistic so I guess that getting that biological sex change now got even easier?

EDIT: Just checked the Campaign Guide and it reads "1/100 have any ability as a wizard or a sorceror" so my apologies for misquoting. Thus the number of adepts actually does not fall under the statistic.

Arabel... a city festering with orcs, of whom bands are still pillaging the local countryside? (As of 3.x, I should add... haven't played 4th or 5th)... yeah, what point of 'not difficult' were you going to be making? Secondly, Polymorph Other was a save or die spell in 2E. It's still a 4th level spell. Which makes it a guarantee that the recipient had better damn well be an adventurer to survive. If we take 3E an Adept can only cast Baleful Polymorph, they'd need to be level 17 Adept to cast 5th level spells anyways. Also, how exactly is the rogue comment any help? If you just so happen to be that country bumpkin, you're going to assume that rogue knows magic, when in truth they know is less than the bard currently playing at the tavern (of whom is more likely to be able to pull of that UMD roll). They are also highly unlikely to have a Polymorph Other spell ... you're assuming capability means access when there's nothing to suggest either are easy to find.

So no, there's nothing in the books to suggest it's easier at all. If anything, it seems to suggest my original point that people who say it's not liable within the setting have no idea about the setting itself. More over, you've done nothing to suggest why characters wouldn't be candid about it. (Edit) Also, might I add ... a Rogue would need a UMD DC 34, or a Spellcraft DC 29, to deciper a scroll of Polymorph Other. That's before even casting it. Not to mention the scroll would cost more than to pay for the spell in person.

 

[Mechamorph]

Arabel... a city festering with orcs, of whom bands are still pillaging the local countryside? ... yeah, what point of 'not difficult' were you going to be making? Secondly, Polymorph Other was a save or die spell in 2E. It's still a 4th level spell. Which makes it a guarantee that the recipient had better damn well be an adventurer to survive. If we take 3E an Adept can only cast Baleful Polymorph, they'd need to be level 17 Adept to cast 5th level spells anyways. Also, how exactly is the rogue comment any help? If you just so happen to be that country bumpkin, you're going to assume that rogue knows magic, when in truth they know the less than the bard currently playing at the tavern. They are also highly unlikely to have a Polymorph Other spell ... you're assuming capability means access when there's nothing to suggest either are easy to find.

So no, there's nothing in the books to suggest it's easier at all. If anything, it seems to suggest my original point that people who say it's not liable within the setting have no idea about the setting itself. More over, you've done nothing to suggest why characters wouldn't be candid about it.

Again you kind of miss the point that Arabel is irrelevant. Any settlement of moderate size will do. In any case, Arabel was only truly dangerous for a period around DR1370ish and was eventually retaken by the Purple Dragons. Why would a nation as powerful as Cormyr allow one of their largest cities to stay overrun with orcs?

I am not sure how well you understand 2E mechanics but the system shock roll is based on Constitution score. Character levels did not enter into the equation. An adventurer is just as likely to survive as anybody else with the same CON score. All polymorphing spells had that feature in 2E but even very average scores like CON 9 had a 65% chance to save. And normal polymorph is on the Adept list, its a 4th level spell for them available at level 11. Hence why I noted that such adepts would be really rare.

If a rogue could use a scroll, it means that if you could convince one to help, he could conceivably use the scroll for you should you, the rogue or a friendly spellcaster obtain you one. It means that even more friendly NPCs are capable of helping you not that they will help you. Still the more possibilities the better. Would the rogue scam you about his ability to help you? Maybe but you run the risk of such from any charlatan who could cast cantrips.

Faerun is a high fantasy setting, its a particularly high magic setting. Possibly the highest of all the D&D campaign settings except for maybe Spelljammer or Planescape. If you continue to want to assert that it is flat out impossible for a person to get a 4th level spell cast for them under 2E rules, then fine. Go ahead. I would think the entertainment value of our discussion has played itself out for the community by now. I do not comment about whether a transgendered individual would be candid about their status because I am not one and I don't presume to speak for them or assume I would know how one would think. The crux of my argument that if one such individual wanted to change biological genders, it would be possible but far from easy. Your position is that despite all of the fluff and crunch that portray Faerun as a world where magic is fairly common, this transgender person is out of luck. Well too bad for the poor hypothetical fellow then I guess. A strong grip on the setting? Well that is an opinion and it is yours to hold. I just wanted to have some fun doing a nerdy discussion about nerdy things, it was great wracking my brain about the old Realms Lore again. Come to think of it, nerdy discussions about nerdy things is one of the things I miss on the forums.

 

[Objectable]

Dungeons & Dragons: Dark elf society is a matriarchy whose ruling caste consists entirely of hot polyamorous bisexuals.

Gamers: Sounds reasonable to me!

Dungeons & Dragons: Also, trans people exist.

Gamers: That doesn?t seem realistic. What is this forced representation bullshit?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

EDIT: Just checked the Campaign Guide and it reads "1/100 have any ability as a wizard or a sorceror" so my apologies for misquoting. Thus the number of adepts actually does not fall under the statistic.

I'm guessing that's the 4E campaign guide, because earlier editions all but bent over backwards to express how overwhelmingly common magic was on Abeir-Toril, to the point of claiming even smarter and/or prominent commoners learn a cantrip or two over the course of their lives (that was in Magic of Faerun if I remember correctly).

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Again you kind of miss the point that Arabel is irrelevant. Any settlement of moderate size will do. In any case, Arabel was only truly dangerous for a period around DR1370ish and was eventually retaken by the Purple Dragons. Why would a nation as powerful as Cormyr allow one of their largest cities to stay overrun with orcs?

I am not sure how well you understand 2E mechanics but the system shock roll is based on Constitution score. Character levels did not enter into the equation. An adventurer is just as likely to survive as anybody else with the same CON score. All polymorphing spells had that feature in 2E but even very average scores like CON 9 had a 65% chance to save. And normal polymorph is on the Adept list, its a 4th level spell for them available at level 11. Hence why I noted that such adepts would be really rare.

If a rogue could use a scroll, it means that if you could convince one to help, he could conceivably use the scroll for you should you, the rogue or a friendly spellcaster obtain you one. It means that even more friendly NPCs are capable of helping you not that they will help you. Still the more possibilities the better. Would the rogue scam you about his ability to help you? Maybe but you run the risk of such from any charlatan who could cast cantrips.

Faerun is a high fantasy setting, its a particularly high magic setting. Possibly the highest of all the D&D campaign settings except for maybe Spelljammer or Planescape. If you continue to want to assert that it is flat out impossible for a person to get a 4th level spell cast for them under 2E rules, then fine. Go ahead. I would think the entertainment value of our discussion has played itself out for the community by now. I do not comment about whether a transgendered individual would be candid about their status because I am not one and I don't presume to speak for them or assume I would know how one would think. The crux of my argument that if one such individual wanted to change biological genders, it would be possible but far from easy. Your position is that despite all of the fluff and crunch that portray Faerun as a world where magic is fairly common, this transgender person is out of luck. Well too bad for the poor hypothetical fellow then I guess. A strong grip on the setting? Well that is an opinion and it is yours to hold. I just wanted to have some fun doing a nerdy discussion about nerdy things, it was great wracking my brain about the old Realms Lore again. Come to think of it, nerdy discussions about nerdy things is one of the things I miss on the forums.

The difference is a level 1 character is going to have no means to boost that constitution and 65%, hrm ... I thought it wwas lower. Still, it's not exactly high for any character that hasn't had the opportunity to accrue any defensive gear whatsoever, and it still doesn't change the fact that it's not an easy spell to come by. Secondly, Polymorph is 1min/level. Polymorph Other, which it got retconned in 3.0, is 5th level, and non-retconned Polymorph Other gave -2 to all checks in any 'stressful' (DM fiat) situation. In 3.5 'Polymorph Any Object' is an 8th Level spell and as far as I can remember that was the only polymorph ability in 3.5 that is permanent, doesn't require shapeshifter subtype, or baleful polymorph ... which turns you into an animal.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's hard, and the campaign setting drums that pretty hard just by reading the magic section. Magic is purposefully obfuscated, and the numbers who can actually channel either the Art or the Power effectively are few, if any. RAW there is nothing to suggest it's easier. As I put down in the edit... for a rogue to cast a spell of polymorph other, they'd need a UMD DC of 34, or a Spellcraft DC of 29 to decipher it, and a UMD DC 29 to cast it.... that's hardly 'good odds' ... and not only that, the scroll would be more expensive.

The good thing about a scroll is you're not relying on someone else, of whom you might not even know, casting a spell on yourself that is potentially harmful ... adventurers have enemies, and you'd be the most defenceless because you'd have to surrender your save before knowing what was actually cast (unless you passed your Spellcraft DC) ... but that also assumes that you can do so yourself in the first place.

A high magic setting does not mean that everyone can access magic. Druids have a harder time accessing magic in FR than they do most other settings. They actually need a patron deity. The Weave can, and does, fail. With catastrophic, near-world ending effects. Magic is everywhere, but it is elusive, the pursuit to learn it purposefully obfuscated, and the guarantee and stability of it limited in the extreme. I don't deny that you might inadvertantly have a wizard best friend who is already likely the talk of the town, and so only have to contend with the social implications of the decision ... but it's quite clear that such friends are rare. Even in that figure of 1 in 100 show the potential to use the Art as a Wizard or Sorcerer (I can't find it but I can see how it works if you take non-human races into the mix), doesn't mean that in some place like Thay doesn't exist, where the education itself kills about half their students trying to harnass that power.

That's not even taking the environmental considerations of travelling to learn the Art or Power, of which everybody who has played a D&D character has been one shotted at Levels 1 ~ 3 in the first round of combat. I had a monk get one shotted because I forgot I was holding a light crossbow and torch so I couldn't deflect a poisonous arrow shot at me from a rogue/fighter mini-bad I was chasing down. Which sucked because I rolled up two 17s and a 14 ... but it was a singularly stupid mistake that most people can make.

But it's also plausible to say that the grand majority of people who would seek that magic would also likely fail to find it. If not be cheated, murdered, or ensorcelled by something along the way. I could totally see a writer reading the FRCS 3.x or Grey Box, and be like; "Well... magic is dangerous and elusive."

 

[Mechamorph]

Dungeons & Dragons: Dark elf society is a matriarchy whose ruling caste consists entirely of hot polyamorous bisexuals.

Gamers: Sounds reasonable to me!

Dungeons & Dragons: Also, trans people exist.

Gamers: That doesn?t seem realistic. What is this forced representation bullshit?

I must protest! We gamers did not overly mind the extremely homoerotic naked moonlight dances by the female worshippers of Eilistraee either! XD

Yeah, some of the Forgotten Realms writers were kinda pervy......okay REALLY pervy....

 

[EternallyBored]

Dungeons & Dragons: Dark elf society is a matriarchy whose ruling caste consists entirely of hot polyamorous bisexuals.

Gamers: Sounds reasonable to me!

Dungeons & Dragons: Also, trans people exist.

Gamers: That doesn?t seem realistic. What is this forced representation bullshit?

I must protest! We gamers did not overly mind the extremely homoerotic naked moonlight dances by the female worshippers of Eilistraee either! XD

Yeah, some of the Forgotten Realms writers were kinda pervy......okay REALLY pervy....

Are we talking about Ed Greenwood? Sounds like we are talking about the granddaddy of the Forgotten Realms. The guy is one of those free love old school hippies, even in his old age, the one that had his self-insert character spend years as a woman and purposely wrote about half-breed species in an almost scandalous way for the time.

God bless that dirty old man, also checking my info reveals he has a facebook page and recently posted about the existence of trans people in the setting due to this games controversy, not about the quality, or lack thereof of this game, but he does acknowledge that trans people exist.

He also wrote that he conceived of the FR in the 60's, which I didn't know, although it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.

 

[Mechamorph]

A high magic setting does not mean that everyone can access magic. Druids have a harder time accessing magic in FR than they do most other settings. They actually need a patron deity. The Weave can, and does, fail. With catastrophic, near-world ending effects. Magic is everywhere, but it is illusive, the pursuit to learn it purposefully obfuscated, and the guarantee and stability of it limited in the extreme. I don't deny that you might inadvertantly have a wizard best friend who is already likely the talk of the town, and so only have to contend with the social implications of the decision ... but it's quite clear that such friends are rare. Even in that figure of 1 in 100 show the potential to use the Art as a Wizard or Sorcerer (I can't find it but I can see how it works if you take non-human races into the mix), doesn't mean that in some place like Thay doesn't exist, where the education itself kills about half their students trying to harnass that power.

That's not even taking the environmental considerations of travelling to learn the Art or Power, of which everybody who has played a D&D character has been one shotted at Levels 1 ~ 3 in the first round of combat. I had a monk get one shotted because I forgot I was holding a light crossbow and torch so I couldn't deflect a poisonous arrow shot at me from a rogue/fighter mini-bad I was chasing down. Which sucked because I rolled up two 17s and a 14 ... but it was a singularly stupid mistake that most people can make.

But it's also plausible to say that the grand majority of people who would seek that magic would also likely fail to find it. If not be cheated, murdered, or ensorcelled by something along the way.

I think the crux is that you are far more familiar with the 3.X rules and the Campaign Setting that came with them whereas I generally speak of 2E rules and the campaign setting at that point. 3.X made that kind of polymorph much, much harder than it was in 2E. An 8th level spell is indeed ludicrously difficult to get whereas a 4th level spell is much more manageable. Polymorph Other was one of the most common 4th level spells in most spellbooks for PCs and DMs since it could effectively kill you twice; if you turned into something defenseless there was a chance you might drop dead from the system shock roll anyway. Sadly unlike 3.X, stat boosting gear was pretty rare in 2E. Ability scores were static outside of really powerful magic with the notion that a 1st level adventurer is at the peak of his mental and physical prowess already. For better or for worse (depending on which side of the DM screen you might be sitting ) a 1st level character was about as likely as a 20th level character of surviving System Shock. An excellent tool for the evil DM when the PCs are getting too big for the britches... not that I have any personal experience with that of course...

I agree that for most people who seek out powerful magic, they will tend to fail. I said its feasible, not easy. You could literally luck into it (employed in Silverymoon, in Alustriel's palace) or be plain out of luck (born in Zhentil Keep, go on, ask a favour from the Black Network. I dare ya!). A determined commoner might be able to do so but not all of them, not even a quarter of them will succeed. As for thieves, a UMD roll can be improved in various ways. A 4th level spell would not need that high a DC but in 2E the thief had a flat 25% chance of success. No tears were saltier than the thief who wasted our emergency Teleport scroll...

And yeah, every D&D gamer prior to the Edition that Shall Not Be Named had experienced how ridiculously fragile their level 1 characters were. My 2E wizard had 1 HP and was killed by a housecat. I had run out of spells and only had a long stick to defend myself with. The damned thing's claws did 1d2 damage but my THAC0 was nearly 20 so farewell my brittle mage. You had a short run and a humiliating death. Maybe one of your twin siblings might fare a little better.

Actually it would be a good idea for a Druid in Faerun to worship a deity even if doing so did not grant spells. Better than winding up in the Wall of the Faithless after death. Kelemvor is a pretty stand up fellow but his 2E predecessor Myrkul was NOT a nice guy.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I think the crux is that you are far more familiar with the 3.X rules and the Campaign Setting that came with them whereas I generally speak of 2E rules and the campaign setting at that point. 3.X made that kind of polymorph much, much harder than it was in 2E. An 8th level spell is indeed ludicrously difficult to get whereas a 4th level spell is much more manageable. Polymorph Other was one of the most common 4th level spells in most spellbooks for PCs and DMs since it could effectively kill you twice; if you turned into something defenseless there was a chance you might drop dead from the system shock roll anyway. Sadly unlike 3.X, stat boosting gear was pretty rare in 2E. Ability scores were static outside of really powerful magic with the notion that a 1st level adventurer is at the peak of his mental and physical prowess already. For better or for worse (depending on which side of the DM screen you might be sitting ) a 1st level character was about as likely as a 20th level character of surviving System Shock. An excellent tool for the evil DM when the PCs are getting too big for the britches... not that I have any personal experience with that of course...

I agree that for most people who seek out powerful magic, they will tend to fail. I said its feasible, not easy. You could literally luck into it (employed in Silverymoon, in Alustriel's palace) or be plain out of luck (born in Zhentil Keep, go on, ask a favour from the Black Network. I dare ya!). A determined commoner might be able to do so but not all of them, not even a quarter of them will succeed. As for thieves, a UMD roll can be improved in various ways. A 4th level spell would not need that high a DC but in 2E the thief had a flat 25% chance of success. No tears were saltier than the thief who wasted our emergency Teleport scroll...

And yeah, every D&D gamer prior to the Edition that Shall Not Be Named had experienced how ridiculously fragile their level 1 characters were. My 2E wizard had 1 HP and was killed by a housecat. I had run out of spells and only had a long stick to defend myself with. The damned thing's claws did 1d2 damage but my THAC0 was nearly 20 so farewell my brittle mage. You had a short run and a humiliating death. Maybe one of your twin siblings might fare a little better.

Actually it would be a good idea for a Druid in Faerun to worship a deity even if doing so did not grant spells. Better than winding up in the Wall of the Faithless after death. Kelemvor is a pretty stand up fellow but his 2E predecessor Myrkul was NOT a nice guy.

I am way more familiar with 3.x, as the first 2E game I played was Ravenloft (and that was when I was 10?) ... which save for Planescape (and more so equally fond) both of which are my favourite settings. But I guess we agree on difficulty. I still think it fits setting wise to have a trans character if only because the polymorph wouldn't stop someone being trans, and indeed it pays to be upfront with a party because you're going to be spending a lot of time together. But I also guess I see the point ....

But a 35% death rate chance ... I can't help but feel reincarnate (2E retcon) wouldn't be more fun/better. The reason being that you're already dead (so you're going to need a raise, anyways)... and your body gets reset to 18 (technically 'new body'), but later editions of the spell basically said; "Yeah, you're basically a fresh-faced teen again."

I think there was a 3.X druid 9th level spell that allowed you to True Reincarnate, where you got to roll twice and no loss of XP (to the recipient). But that's 17 x 50 + Material and XP costs. So... well, if you're high enough level to meet a druid that can do it, you can probably afford it. And a part of me would prefer as an adventurer a reincarnate spell because short of high disguise rolls, it's one of the few ways to completely change everything (physical) about yourself, have it truly be permanent (no anti-magic/dead magic zone/etc cancellation), and short of truename magic be magically undetectable as looking different to what you were ... as your truename at its creation is kind of static.

Of course there was a chance you come back as an orc, but at least you get to reset the biological clock. You were for all intents and purposes a completely new person. Basically the cheapest and arguably best way to be immortal. Lichdom kind of blows, and being able to look 100% different is a good way to elude enemies.

(Edit) There was at least a 70%-80% chance of coming back as some respectable humanoid (eliminating gnome from the mix). If you True Reincarnate, you have two chances of rolling dwarf, human, elf, halfling, half elf, .... which those five accomodated most of the percentiles of rolling, and you get to pick which one you want... 75% chance of the sex you wanted, and basically 0% concerning all other physical features if you bother with that crap. But True reincarnate seems the best way for a permanent solution ... but, you know, big price tag and finding the help will be difficult. Much less convincing them why you should receive such a blessing.

I can't remember the exact wording, but I think Clone spell might also do the same when mixed with other magic to permanently change your appearance, but I'm not sure if that reset you to basically 18 years old again.

As for wizard's HP ... you know the reason why I brought up the Mob template thing? In a 3.5 conversion of Planescape we were playing, our mage in the group did that. In Fortitude no less (pre Fortitude-based AM) ... I was playing a Human Warblade AC tank ... heavy dex build, Elven Courtblade, White Raven/Iron Heart/Tiger Claw build. I'm not really a an of the so-called "3.75" stuff, but party wanted a tank and I didn't feel like going a barbarian (and I dislike fighters) and I wanted to justify 14 int and have it be useful, and have a whole bunch of skill points as well. Anyways Swarms + glass cannon AC builds ... you kind of see how it went down.

So I feel your pain. Where enemies kill you without having to even roll.

Specifically on d4 HD characters however, had a Sorcerer die of constitution drain, but without getting Con 0 ... it's ....ehhh. Prefer bards. Bards are underrated. They're the only class I know that can cast at a CL of +8 their character level. Not to mention full Sorc progression -1 at level 11 and onwards with Sublime Chord. You can raise the cheese by throwing on archmage. You have to play exalted, however.

So, you know ... alignment restrictions on being totally badass without restraint.

(Edit) As for deities ... ehhhh. I mean there are times when having a deity didn't suit the specific realm. But I love Malar and I love druids, and combining the two I always have fun. Sure it kind of sucks doing anything else but Druid 20, I like being a Werewolf and eating people, except mothers and children. Malarites get a bad rap. They give meat to children and teach poor mothers to hunt. They're not all bad. Rarely a problem, plenty of deities out there to pay lip service regardless of character.

 

[StatusNil]

So in case anyone missed it the CEO of Beamdog just released a statement

https://archive.is/IobYa

The main sentiment of it in brief.

- I agree the writing may have been under-developed surrounding the trans character and in the future we'll make sure going forward we try to develop actual deep characters (not just seemingly token characters)

- Yes the Ethics in adventuring line was wrong for the character and we're going to remove it

- Yes there are a number of bugs some fairly bad that we need to work on to fix.

- We stand by our staff and will not tolerate anyone harassing or threatening them.

Well, I'm glad they might have recognized the Minsc meme was nothing but a useless provocation (the phrasing is certainly vague). Still doesn't make this a worthy addition to BG, and doesn't do much to inspire future confidence in their productions.

The simple principle here should be that the game world comes first. Of course fictional worlds can and must be informed and inspired by the real one, but the "bad writing" is a symptom of seeing it just as an arena to transpose current real world political concerns into, in essence making the fiction just the sweetening of the preaching, a simple trick to get children to take their medicine. There are two principal reactions this is likely to elicit from members of the audience: a more or less smug approval of the "correct message" by someone who views themselves as the adult inspecting a product being marketed to children, or the insult over being patronized as if one was counted among those children. Neither should be the aim of someone in the Epic Role Playing business, and neither is making a positive contribution to the real world cause that it purports to serve. You don't promote empathy by lecturing people as if they were unruly children who needed a stern talking to, and the praise you're getting is coming from those simply wishing to claim the lecturer role in this scenario.

This also has a corollary in the area of basic functionality. It's as if Beamdog went ahead with what is reportedly a severely buggy release shrugging their shoulders, going "So it has a few issues with actually working... the important thing is we struck a blow for Diversity in Gaming!" After all, you don't have to have an appreciation for the game experience in order to approve of the "message". This is the result of the ambition to make "social justice games", as the writer has declared hers to be, with the "games" part being a secondary concern to the "social justice" supposedly being delivered. While "social justice" enthusiasts may applaud these priorities, gamers are going to be frustrated by the neglect of aspects they naturally view as central.

 

[Dalsyne]

I didn't want Beamdog to remove the Minsc thing. As much as I hated one of my favorite characters in gaming make shitty quips about the controversy du jour, offense alone shouldn't drive your artistic decisions.

They reacted completely wrong to the entire debacle. Banning people en masse and contacting biased outlets with "come and see the violence inherent in the system! help help we're being repressed!" and then going "fine, we'll self-censor, just stop getting pissed off at us".