Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

[Hawki]

I hope Biden gets his CCP policy right. Over-estimating them is the safe choice, but if it means we spend one hundred billion more on our military than we need to, then that means millions to tens of millions of people's lives will have their quality of life reduced. Underestimating them means disaster for our allies and much of the free world.

I have read all types of books on the topic from Peter Zehian's disunited nations to various books saying they have won. The only way to test this would be on the battlefield, and that carries the risk of nuclear escalation.

To be frank, the level of spending the US military is already obscene. Of the top 10 military budgets in the world, the US spends more than the other 9 combined, 8 of whom are US allies.

And look, I'm not saying that the world can just lay down its arms and all that, but it's such a waste of money overall - all this military hardware bought by countries that they'll almost certainly never use, let alone use it in a major war. Imagine what we could do to address the climate crisis with those funds for instance, or any number of programs used to lift people up rather than spend it on weapons.

I know, bleeding heart and all that, but, y'know, priorities...

 

[Seanchaidh]

Because the US hasn't imprisoned an entire group of people in the 21st century within concentration camps.

..?

That's either true or false of both the United States and China depending on your definition of "entire group of people". If you want to say one does it, then the other does it. If you want to say one doesn't, then the other doesn't.

Because the US hasn't imprisoned anyone in the 21st century for speaking out against the state,

Is it 'moral high ground' when you just haven't managed to catch people like Edward Snowden or were denied the extradition of Julian Assange?

Anyway, Chelsea Manning, various Black Panther Party members still in prison, Water protectors, BLM activists jailed on ridiculous charges, and so on.

nor does it have "secret prisons" like China does.

Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo Bay? Biden is currently blocking photography of ICE detention centers.

There's a lot to criticize about the US prison system, but I'm not sure how anyone could cast it as being morally equivalent to China's state apparatus.

The United States regime seems to murder far more people before they would even make it to a prison and supports military coups (Bolivia, Haiti) and genocides (Yemen) and brutal apartheid/ethnic cleansing (Israel), as well as committing heaps of structural (economic) violence against its poorer residents, so I agree: it's hard to cast it as morally equivalent. It appears to be worse.

 

[Gergar12]

To be frank, the level of spending the US military is already obscene. Of the top 10 military budgets in the world, the US spends more than the other 9 combined, 8 of whom are US allies.

And look, I'm not saying that the world can just lay down its arms and all that, but it's such a waste of money overall - all this military hardware bought by countries that they'll almost certainly never use, let alone use it in a major war. Imagine what we could do to address the climate crisis with those funds for instance, or any number of programs used to lift people up rather than spend it on weapons.

I know, bleeding heart and all that, but, y'know, priorities...

For most of the world, we live in a fairly peaceful world. But tell that to Ukrainians right now in fear of half of their country being annexed by Russia, or Taiwan who has to fear their whole country being annexed by China.

Also, wages are lower in China, and Russia than in the US which is why US spending is higher, granted we have better military prowess and doctrine and are better sailers, airmen, and infantry than the rising powers of China, Russa, but the US public does not like high soldier combat death counts(Vietnam for example) so we have a smaller margin of success than Russia or China.

This means every war cannot be like Vietnam or Korea and has to be like the first gulf war especially if it's long.

If you want to know why we spend too much on the military it's two reasons.
Military officers are hired at defense companies after they leave the armed forces. Two military spendings are one of the few acceptable ways of public spending by both sides(democrat, and republican), and so even senators like Bernie sanders want the F-35 in the Vermont National Guard.

 

[Kwak]

Biden is currently blocking photography of ICE detention centers.

According to what or who?

 

[Dreiko]

All those kids we much safer staying in a border town in Mexico. They had arm band and everything to make sure they only got stolen or raped once

Isn't that on Mexico though? Isn't it their responsibility to ensure the safety of unaccompanied migrant children once they enter their borders? Why are we picking up their slack. It doesn't matter where the children are heading towards, once inside Mexico it's on the Mexican government's hands. I'm sure even in Mexico children don't just get to do whatever they want and go wherever they please while underage and there's things like orphanages and whatnot too so I don't see why Mexico even allows them to just keep going wherever they want. Like if some ninja kid somehow sneaks past everyone in mexico who could catch them and makes it here fine but it shouldn't be possible for hundreds of them to just slip through an entire country like that.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Isn't that on Mexico though? Isn't it their responsibility to ensure the safety of unaccompanied migrant children once they enter their borders? Why are we picking up their slack. It doesn't matter where the children are heading towards, once inside Mexico it's on the Mexican government's hands. I'm sure even in Mexico children don't just get to do whatever they want and go wherever they please while underage and there's things like orphanages and whatnot too so I don't see why Mexico even allows them to just keep going wherever they want. Like if some ninja kid somehow sneaks past everyone in mexico who could catch them and makes it here fine but it shouldn't be possible for hundreds of them to just slip through an entire country like that.

Or, because they're right there, we could not be shit about this and let them in. *Should* and *Does* are two very separate things. If you're fleeing drug-based cartel violence, Mexico is not a particularly safe place to stop

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Well I figured Biden refusing to let any media etc see the state of the border camps after leaked photos showed people huddled under emergency blanks would likely have a thread already honestly.

I love how things can be absolute dogshit for decades but some people only get mad when the people in power are wearing the wrong jersey color.

 

[Dreiko]

Or, because they're right there, we could not be shit about this and let them in. *Should* and *Does* are two very separate things. If you're fleeing drug-based cartel violence, Mexico is not a particularly safe place to stop

They didn't teleport there, they had to cross through mexico. It's a failure of the mexican government that so many of them manage to pass through like that.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

They didn't teleport there, they had to cross through mexico. It's a failure of the mexican government that so many of them manage to pass through like that.

I do not care. A great many governments have to fail to get large groups of people fleeing across continents, and I'm 99% sure that the CIA has their fair share of fault for it.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I love how things can be absolute dogshit for decades but some people only get mad when the people in power are wearing the wrong jersey color.

I know, those Obama Era photos from the camps that spread round a a year or two ago were pretty bad too the mattresses on the floor, now it doesn't even look like they've got those.

 

[Trunkage]

They didn't teleport there, they had to cross through mexico. It's a failure of the mexican government that so many of them manage to pass through like that.

The ONLY reason why they are there is because Trump backed out of Obama's wall deal with Mexico. So, in revenge, the Mexican army is helping ferry immigrants up to the border.

 

[laggyteabag]

Does anyone ever really put any stock into anything that China says, diplomatically?

If you criticise the CCP, the CCP will ignore it, and criticise you back.

There was a news story recently, where some UK politicians spoke up about China's treatment of the Uyghurs, and China basically told them to fuck off, and banned them from the country.

You should never underestimate the CCP, but I don't think anyone actually cares what they have to say.

 

[Revnak]

Because the US hasn't imprisoned an entire group of people in the 21st century within concentration camps.

Uyghur work camps and US refugee detention centers are both well within traditional definitions of concentration camps.

Because the US hasn't imprisoned anyone in the 21st century for speaking out against the state, nor does it have "secret prisons" like China does.

On the first, we most assuredly have quite regularly over the last year with BLM protesters, as well as Chelsea Manning if you want something high profile. On the second, the War on Terror showed countless examples of how that’s not true.

Because the US isn't engaged in organ harvesting of its prisoners.

Systemic rape, slavery, and abuse of prisoners isn’t better.

There's a lot to criticize about the US prison system, but I'm not sure how anyone could cast it as being morally equivalent to China's state apparatus.

I mean it just is equivalent. Both sides do basically all the exact same shit in ways that are slightly different so they can make up different narratives of justification that are slightly at odds with justifications they’re opposed to so they can feign a moral high ground. It’s the exact same utterly repulsive shit. If the US had all of its “problem Muslims” here rather than in other countries we’d have setup the same kind of detention facilities and work camps as China, because we did setup the same thing, we just built them in Iraq and then the prisoners made ISIS.

 

[Dreiko]

The ONLY reason why they are there is because Trump backed out of Obama's wall deal with Mexico. So, in revenge, the Mexican army is helping ferry immigrants up to the border.

Right, so if we are to hold Mexico to a similar standard and not treat them with the soft bigotry of low expectations, they need to be criticized for this inhumane response that uses the suffering of poor immigrant children to spite a political rival. I don't get why this isn't a bigger deal. I think everyone just kinda thinks "well, it's Mexico" and waves off their inferior treatment because they see them as inferior in general. Only by holding them to the standard we hold ourselves can we claim that we see them as equals in the world stage and not as a pawn state.

 

[Silvanus]

On the first, we most assuredly have quite regularly over the last year with BLM protesters, as well as Chelsea Manning if you want something high profile. On the second, the War on Terror showed countless examples of how that’s not true.

All completely true, but nowhere remotely near the scale of what the CCP is running.

Systemic rape, slavery, and abuse of prisoners isn’t better.

Sure, but the CCP operates all of those as well in addition to the organ-harvesting.

I mean it just is equivalent.

I don't think any independent observer, aid organisation, or rights NGO would conclude that the US is perpetrating wholesale ethnic genocide.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Indifference barely contained

 

[Seanchaidh]

I don't think any independent observer, aid organisation, or rights NGO would conclude that the US is perpetrating wholesale ethnic genocide.

That may say more about "independent" observers, aid organizations, and rights NGOs than it does about anything else.

According to what or who?

 

[Hawki]

..?

That's either true or false of both the United States and China depending on your definition of "entire group of people". If you want to say one does it, then the other does it. If you want to say one doesn't, then the other doesn't.

What is the US doing to a group within its own borders that's equivalent to the Ughyrs?

Is it 'moral high ground' when you just haven't managed to catch people like Edward Snowden or were denied the extradition of Julian Assange?

I'm not denying the issues with Snowden or Assange, but that pales to what China is doing to dissidents within its borders.

We at least know where Snowden and Assange are. The same can't be said for the people within China who've simply disappeared.

Anyway, Chelsea Manning, various Black Panther Party members still in prison, Water protectors, BLM activists jailed on ridiculous charges, and so on.

China: The Global Leader in Political Prisoners

Beijing is a trend setter on a number of issues, but this one is nothing to be proud of.

freedomhouse.org

Again, all true, but it's not equivalent in scale.

The US hasn't imprisoned journalists for speaking out against the government.

Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo Bay? Biden is currently blocking photography of ICE detention centers.

Black jails - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However one feels about Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, those were used for enemy combatants.

Similarly, I don't think ICE can be put on the same level as everything that China is doing. One is used to apprehend illegal migrants, the other is to detain political prisoners.

The United States regime seems to murder far more people before they would even make it to a prison and supports military coups (Bolivia, Haiti) and genocides (Yemen) and brutal apartheid/ethnic cleansing (Israel), as well as committing heaps of structural (economic) violence against its poorer residents, so I agree: it's hard to cast it as morally equivalent. It appears to be worse.

Everything you've said is more or less true, but if we're doing this...

Bolivia and Haiti? Well China supports North Korea and Myanmar.

Genocide in Yemen? Again, true, US arms sales have played a role, but China is also a major arms exporter.

US is supporting Israel and ethnic cleansing? China is doing that itself in Tibet.

Economic violence? Look what China's done to its own environment and people, not to mention the use of slave labour.

To be clear, the sins of the US don't excuse the sins of China and vice versa. However, the original question was that of detention. So on that note, which of the two is the worst offender? China, or the US?

To me, China. By almost any measurement, be it democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, or the global slavery index, the China falls below the US. That's arguably not saying much, but one's clearly doing better than the other.

 

[Hawki]

Uyghur work camps and US refugee detention centers are both well within traditional definitions of concentration camps.

I disagree.

Again, there's plenty to criticize about refugee detention centres, but this isn't equivalent to the Ughyr work camps. The former is apprehending people who've crossed into a country illegally. The latter is interning people without charge, who are citizens of the country in question.

On the first, we most assuredly have quite regularly over the last year with BLM protesters, as well as Chelsea Manning if you want something high profile. On the second, the War on Terror showed countless examples of how that’s not true.

See the points I made in the thread above.

War on Terror bases, however shady, were at least used for enemy combatants, not prisoners of conscience. I haven't heard of Chelsea Manning, and looking it up, it seems far too complex for me to make a snap judgement. However, look at Li Weinliang as a counterpoint.

Systemic rape, slavery, and abuse of prisoners isn’t better.

I have no doubt that prionsers within the US prison system are being abused and raped. As I've said, the US has the highest incarceration rate per capita in the world. I'm not going to defend that.

HOWEVER, I can't call the two equivalent. Factor in China's political prisoners, factor in literal slave labour with the Ughyr cotton pickers (and even that aside, China is worse than the US in the Global Slavery Index), and factor in China's use of capital punishment, where it executes more prisoners than the rest of the world combined.

It's just...no. Just no. As insane as I find the US prison system, as much as I've criticized the US, I simply cannot buy the idea that it's morally equivalent to what China is doing.

I mean it just is equivalent. Both sides do basically all the exact same shit in ways that are slightly different so they can make up different narratives of justification that are slightly at odds with justifications they’re opposed to so they can feign a moral high ground. It’s the exact same utterly repulsive shit. If the US had all of its “problem Muslims” here rather than in other countries we’d have setup the same kind of detention facilities and work camps as China, because we did setup the same thing, we just built them in Iraq and then the prisoners made ISIS.

Yes, that's true, both countries (all countries) justify attrocities in their name. However, on the subject of "problem Muslims," the US already has plenty of Muslims within its own borders. Many of them have been unfairly targeted. However, the country hasn't engaged in mass incarceration of a religious group in the same way that China has. And that's not even just Muslims in China - take Buddhists in Tibet, or Christians in the country in general.

If we're talking about ISIS and Iraq, well, the technicality that ISIS actually originated before the invasion aside, then yes, absolutely - the invasion of Iraq was a disaster. You won't hear any defence from me there. However, even when ISIS was at its height, the US never incarcerated its own citizens in the same way that China did.

 

[Silvanus]

That may say more about "independent" observers, aid organizations, and rights NGOs than it does about anything else.

You believe the US is committing genocide, and that all international charities and aid organisations are involved in covering it up?