Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

Seanchaidh

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What is the US doing to a group within its own borders that's equivalent to the Ughyrs?
Does the "moral high ground" recognize borders?

Anyway, the way that the US government treats the Lakota is pretty terrible. And a US client state is responsible for all the various suffering in Gaza. And another US client state is responsible for Yemen. And so on. "Within its own borders" is a dodge.


I'm not denying the issues with Snowden or Assange, but that pales to what China is doing to dissidents within its borders.

We at least know where Snowden and Assange are. The same can't be said for the people within China who've simply disappeared.
As if society is perfectly aware of everyone in the US prison system? As if there aren't many more George Floyds who simply weren't filmed?

The US hasn't imprisoned journalists for speaking out against the government.
We at least know where Snowden and Assange are.
Assange is in prison at the behest of the United States, even if he hasn't been extradited. And he is in prison because he did a journalism.

However one feels about Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, those were used for enemy combatants.
This is nothing more than an excuse. You think China doesn't also have excuses?

Similarly, I don't think ICE can be put on the same level as everything that China is doing. One is used to apprehend illegal migrants, the other is to detain political prisoners.
So you buy the excuses of the country whose propaganda is exported worldwide in the language that we are speaking, but not the other. OK.

To be clear, the sins of the US don't excuse the sins of China and vice versa. However, the original question was that of detention. So on that note, which of the two is the worst offender? China, or the US?

To me, China. By almost any measurement, be it democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, or the global slavery index, the China falls below the US. That's arguably not saying much, but one's clearly doing better than the other.
Notably, "body count" was absent in your list, as well as military aggression, drone bombing, and so on. Being at war rather than not apparently gives you the moral high ground. As if being at war wasn't a choice to begin with.

You believe the US is committing genocide, and that all international charities and aid organisations are involved in covering it up?
I think there is certainly bias and double standards when it comes to how NGOs, independent observers, and so forth treat the United States regime and its co-conspirators as opposed to what they say about governments that the State Department wants hostility with. Bias and double standards that would lead to saying that the United States is not while China is doing a genocide. If the United States falls short of literally doing a holocaust, it's not doing a genocide; if China can be represented as acting in more or less the same way that Canada or the United States has treated their indigenous populations within the last fifty years, then it is doing a genocide.
 
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tstorm823

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You believe the US is committing genocide, and that all international charities and aid organisations are involved in covering it up?
Seanchaidh believes the US leads a global conspiracy against communism, and those organizations are capitalists sympathizers who aren't reporting honestly on the death and destruction caused by sabotaging the communists, who would obviously thrive if the US would let them.
 

Silvanus

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I think there is certainly bias and double standards when it comes to how NGOs, independent observers, and so forth treat the United States regime and its co-conspirators as opposed to what they say about governments that the State Department wants hostility with. Bias and double standards that would lead to saying that the United States is not while China is doing a genocide. If the United States falls short of literally doing a holocaust, it's not doing a genocide; if China can be represented as acting in more or less the same way that Canada or the United States has treated their indigenous populations within the last fifty years, then it is doing a genocide.
We're not just talking about organisations that shill for the US State Department; we're talking about universal consensus among pretty much every org doing work on human rights and poverty overseas.

What is being done to the Uyghurs right now is far, far more targeted and extreme than anything currently happening in the US or Canada, though past treatment of the native Americans comes close.

The CCP is one of the most rigidly-hierarchical, corporatist, racist, authoritarian despotisms on the planet, and it should not be having its pathetic deflections echoed by leftists anywhere.
 
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Gergar12

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I am going to give President Biden a mile of credit here.

  1. He has kept Trumps China Tariffs
  2. Hired A Taiwanese trade lawyer for a free trade position(Katherine Tai)
  3. Said he will outcompete China
  4. Given 1400 to everyone including college students, and a whole host of spending to the American people
  5. Pissed off the CCP in Alaska so much that they had to hire trolls to go to the comment sections of CNBC
  6. Called out Putin, and Xi
  7. And is about to sign a major infrastructure plan worth trillions
  8. Kept the 700 billion military budget
  9. Forced the Europeans to be more aggressive towards China

This guy is not a neoliberal, he is a capitalist, but he is no Bill Clinton.

As someone who is left-wing on economics, and most social issues( generally), and is hawkish on foreign policy. This guy has earned my vote for the 2022 2024 primaries, and the general. No more blindly voting for the left-wing candidate most able to win.
 

Revnak

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I disagree.

Again, there's plenty to criticize about refugee detention centres, but this isn't equivalent to the Ughyr work camps. The former is apprehending people who've crossed into a country illegally. The latter is interning people without charge, who are citizens of the country in question.
Yeah, and what China’s doing is perfectly legal under their own laws too. Nevermind that refugees arriving at ports of entry is legal under international law. And who gives a fuck if they’re citizens of the country in question. Concentration camps have absolutely nothing to do with citizenship.

See the points I made in the thread above.

War on Terror bases, however shady, were at least used for enemy combatants, not prisoners of conscience. I haven't heard of Chelsea Manning, and looking it up, it seems far too complex for me to make a snap judgement. However, look at Li Weinliang as a counterpoint.
When you define “enemy combatant” as “able bodied male” it is just as bad.

I have no doubt that prionsers within the US prison system are being abused and raped. As I've said, the US has the highest incarceration rate per capita in the world. I'm not going to defend that.

HOWEVER, I can't call the two equivalent. Factor in China's political prisoners, factor in literal slave labour with the Ughyr cotton pickers (and even that aside, China is worse than the US in the Global Slavery Index), and factor in China's use of capital punishment, where it executes more prisoners than the rest of the world combined.

It's just...no. Just no. As insane as I find the US prison system, as much as I've criticized the US, I simply cannot buy the idea that it's morally equivalent to what China is doing.
Except we also have prison slave labor and executions, there is no moral high ground here.

Yes, that's true, both countries (all countries) justify attrocities in their name. However, on the subject of "problem Muslims," the US already has plenty of Muslims within its own borders. Many of them have been unfairly targeted. However, the country hasn't engaged in mass incarceration of a religious group in the same way that China has. And that's not even just Muslims in China - take Buddhists in Tibet, or Christians in the country in general.
We have nowhere near the Muslim population of China.
If we're talking about ISIS and Iraq, well, the technicality that ISIS actually originated before the invasion aside, then yes, absolutely - the invasion of Iraq was a disaster. You won't hear any defence from me there. However, even when ISIS was at its height, the US never incarcerated its own citizens in the same way that China did.
Who cares? We incarcerated them in Iraq at a similar scale to create ISIS in the first place. Citizenship isn’t some special card that makes abuses more or less justifiable. It’s fake nonsense.
 
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Revnak

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The CCP is one of the most rigidly-hierarchical, corporatist, racist, authoritarian despotisms on the planet, and it should not be having its pathetic deflections echoed by leftists anywhere.
No. It is as rigidly-hierarchical, corporatist, racist, and authoritarian as the US government, which is as staunch of a condemnation as I can give. I’ve no clue how that’s a “deflection.”
 

Revnak

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All completely true, but nowhere remotely near the scale of what the CCP is running.
I disagree. I think it’s an extremely comparable scale.

Sure, but the CCP operates all of those as well in addition to the organ-harvesting.
To the same scale? Maybe. Still a wash to me.

I don't think any independent observer, aid organisation, or rights NGO would conclude that the US is perpetrating wholesale ethnic genocide.
I’ve little trust for any that’d say the US isn’t doing just that in multiple regions of the globe.
Edit- as an easy example of the US doing ethnic cleansing right now, skipping over the ongoing reservation system and the treatment of refugees, Yemen and Palestine come to mind.
 
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Silvanus

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I disagree. I think it’s an extremely comparable scale.
Really? The treatment of protesters is "extremely comparable" to ethnic genocide? This is getting laughable.

What proportion of the US prison population do you reckon are political prisoners or protesters? 5% maybe at most? Here's a factoid: the population of the internment camps in Xinjiang is between 2-3 million, so anywhere between 80% and 120% as large as the entire US prison population.

And then on top of that, you have the official prison population in China of about 1.5 million, a far larger proportion of whom will be political prisoners since any reporting or journalism at all that questions or doubts the party line is illegal.

To say they're on the same scale is to grotesquely downplay what's going on.
 

Seanchaidh

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We're not just talking about organisations that shill for the US State Department; we're talking about universal consensus among pretty much every org doing work on human rights and poverty overseas.
Such as..?

Really? The treatment of protesters is "extremely comparable" to ethnic genocide? This is getting laughable.

What proportion of the US prison population do you reckon are political prisoners or protesters? 5% maybe at most? Here's a factoid: the population of the internment camps in Xinjiang is between 2-3 million, so anywhere between 80% and 120% as large as the entire US prison population.

And then on top of that, you have the official prison population in China of about 1.5 million, a far larger proportion of whom will be political prisoners since any reporting or journalism at all that questions or doubts the party line is illegal.

To say they're on the same scale is to grotesquely downplay what's going on.
This is speculative.
 

Revnak

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Really? The treatment of protesters is "extremely comparable" to ethnic genocide? This is getting laughable.

What proportion of the US prison population do you reckon are political prisoners or protesters? 5% maybe at most? Here's a factoid: the population of the internment camps in Xinjiang is between 2-3 million, so anywhere between 80% and 120% as large as the entire US prison population.

And then on top of that, you have the official prison population in China of about 1.5 million, a far larger proportion of whom will be political prisoners since any reporting or journalism at all that questions or doubts the party line is illegal.

To say they're on the same scale is to grotesquely downplay what's going on.
No, we export our “political” prisoners, or we condemn them for made up crimes such as those enforced through the war on drugs. Personally, I view the vast majority of drug related sentences as qualifying as political prison sentences under a different label, much as China’s “enrichment centers” or what have you are political prisons under a different label.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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No, we export our “political” prisoners, or we condemn them for made up crimes such as those enforced through the war on drugs. Personally, I view the vast majority of drug related sentences as qualifying as political prison sentences under a different label, much as China’s “enrichment centers” or what have you are political prisons under a different label.
generally the US doesn't use them to harvest organs from though
 

Revnak

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generally the US doesn't use them to harvest organs from though
Slavery, rape, abuse, and killing aren’t “not as bad” as organ harvesting. They are as bad. It is a wash.
 

Trunkage

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Right, so if we are to hold Mexico to a similar standard and not treat them with the soft bigotry of low expectations, they need to be criticized for this inhumane response that uses the suffering of poor immigrant children to spite a political rival. I don't get why this isn't a bigger deal. I think everyone just kinda thinks "well, it's Mexico" and waves off their inferior treatment because they see them as inferior in general. Only by holding them to the standard we hold ourselves can we claim that we see them as equals in the world stage and not as a pawn state.
I would first hold the US to that standard by stopping destroy South American countries. That's not Mexicos problem

I get why Trump was mad. He didn't create the problem. It was 40 yeaes of failed puppet states that did that. But some of those countries have no police force due to the US. Others have zones where police or armies aren't allowed in because of what the US paid them to do. Eg. Bush paid Basilsinaro to throw out native and destroy forests and then we cry out when he copied that when he got in power 15 years later. What did you think was going to happen Liberals?
 

Dreiko

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I would first hold the US to that standard by stopping destroy South American countries. That's not Mexicos problem

I get why Trump was mad. He didn't create the problem. It was 40 yeaes of failed puppet states that did that. But some of those countries have no police force due to the US. Others have zones where police or armies aren't allowed in because of what the US paid them to do. Eg. Bush paid Basilsinaro to throw out native and destroy forests and then we cry out when he copied that when he got in power 15 years later. What did you think was going to happen Liberals?
So while I agree that these policies are dumb and I'm totally anti war/intervention, that doesn't mean it wasn't up to those countries to shake off our efforts and remain unaffected. It's not that we created the problem as much as it was that they failed to prevent it from being created, that's where the blame lies because that's whose responsibility it is to safeguard those south american people's lives. Our job is to look for our interests, and their job is to look out for theirs. If you say we are to look out for their interests and ours together then that no longer is a relation between equals. You have a king state and a bunch of vassal states in that situation.
 

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So while I agree that these policies are dumb and I'm totally anti war/intervention, that doesn't mean it wasn't up to those countries to shake off our efforts and remain unaffected. It's not that we created the problem as much as it was that they failed to prevent it from being created, that's where the blame lies because that's whose responsibility it is to safeguard those south american people's lives. Our job is to look for our interests, and their job is to look out for theirs. If you say we are to look out for their interests and ours together then that no longer is a relation between equals. You have a king state and a bunch of vassal states in that situation.
Just got a few queries before discussing anything else

1. In your opinion, does Mexico take in any refugees?
2. Lebanon and Jordan took in (and still generally have) about 5 mil Syrian refugees. Should they be responsible for all of the Syrian refugees?
3. Should Mexico take in ALL of South American immigrants?
4. Does all these immigrants solely come from Guatemala and Belize? Because Trump rule of not taking in refugees from non-border countries also allowed to apply to Mexico.
5. Why is the US take in so little immigrants, when my country can take in 7 to 10 times the amount and being less then a 1/13 of the size?
6. Overall, why are you blaming Mexico for this?
 

tstorm823

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I am going to give President Biden a mile of credit here.

  1. He has kept Trumps China Tariffs
  2. Hired A Taiwanese trade lawyer for a free trade position(Katherine Tai)
  3. Said he will outcompete China
  4. Given 1400 to everyone including college students, and a whole host of spending to the American people
  5. Pissed off the CCP in Alaska so much that they had to hire trolls to go to the comment sections of CNBC
  6. Called out Putin, and Xi
  7. And is about to sign a major infrastructure plan worth trillions
  8. Kept the 700 billion military budget
  9. Forced the Europeans to be more aggressive towards China

This guy is not a neoliberal, he is a capitalist, but he is no Bill Clinton.

As someone who is left-wing on economics, and most social issues( generally), and is hawkish on foreign policy. This guy has earned my vote for the 2022 2024 primaries, and the general. No more blindly voting for the left-wing candidate most able to win.
I swear, if you showed me that list without context, I would 100% have guessed you were explicitly listing Trump policies maintained by the Biden administration.
5. Why is the US take in so little immigrants, when my country can take in 7 to 10 times the amount and being less then a 1/13 of the size?
I don't think your numbers are accurate. I looked at a bunch of numbers, and the only way to see comparison like that I found was comparing just permanently relocated refugees in the US to all immigration to Australia.
 
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Trunkage

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I don't think your numbers are accurate. I looked at a bunch of numbers, and the only way to see comparison like that I found was comparing just permanently relocated refugees in the US to all immigration to Australia.
Looking at wikipedia (take with grain of salt), you might be right
.

2017 is the latest listed on Australia. Taking the average over the years, we take in 15Kish people. Which is similar to Trump policies which reduced refugee intake to 18kish (and this year 15 but this may have already been rolled back). Noting that it hasn't been this low before.
 

Dreiko

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Just got a few queries before discussing anything else

1. In your opinion, does Mexico take in any refugees?
2. Lebanon and Jordan took in (and still generally have) about 5 mil Syrian refugees. Should they be responsible for all of the Syrian refugees?
3. Should Mexico take in ALL of South American immigrants?
4. Does all these immigrants solely come from Guatemala and Belize? Because Trump rule of not taking in refugees from non-border countries also allowed to apply to Mexico.
5. Why is the US take in so little immigrants, when my country can take in 7 to 10 times the amount and being less then a 1/13 of the size?
6. Overall, why are you blaming Mexico for this?

The moment they hit mexico they stop being refugees since mexico is safe, once they go on from there to try and get here they become economic migrants, so economic migrant rules should apply.

The first non-warzone you reach should be the place you stay at, and the worldwide community should pitch in to fund such an endeavor. It's much more efficient than having people do needless and dangerous traveling which ends up costing the world that much more and has worse results.

The US has like almost 20 million illegal immigrants already so I dunno what number you saw that made you think it's not enough.

You said mexico reacted to trump's policy and enacted something that in effect puts migrant kids at risk, I was just reacting to that with the natural thought everyone would have. Mexico is not powerless in how they react to things, they can handle being big boys and acting responsible.
 

Hawki

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Does the "moral high ground" recognize borders?

Anyway, the way that the US government treats the Lakota is pretty terrible.
Probably, but are you placing it on the same level as China treats the Ughyr and other ethnic groups?

And a US client state is responsible for all the various suffering in Gaza.
Some? Yes. All? No.

And another US client state is responsible for Yemen.
Again, some, yes, all, no.

You're adopting an all or nothing approach. Israel's sins don't excuse Hamas's and that of the Arab world. Saudi Arabia's sins don't excuse that of Iran's.

"Within its own borders" is a dodge.
In theory, yes, but this conversation started on domestic issues. And I've already provided a list of what China is doing outside its borders as well.

As if society is perfectly aware of everyone in the US prison system? As if there aren't many more George Floyds who simply weren't filmed?
That's a false equivalance, and I'll give you the courtesy of assuming you know that.

The US hasn't mass incarcerated political prisoners in the same way that China has. And if we're talking about the 'other George Floyds' that weren't filmed, no doubt they exist, but compare freedom of Internet access in the US to China. If we're making the argument of "there's shit happening that we can't see," then China is the one more at fault.

As much as there is to criticize about the US prison system, people are still allowed to visit inmates. In contrast, China's political prisoners simply disappear, and are very hard to track. There's no shortage of Ughyr and even Han Chinese people who are right now, trying to find out what's happened to their friends and family.

Assange is in prison at the behest of the United States, even if he hasn't been extradited. And he is in prison because he did a journalism.
Again, you simply can't equate Assange to China's political incarceration.

The case against Assange was, in part, driven from leaking classified documents. Everyone knows where Assange is. Compare that to Chinese journalists who were imprisoned simply for criticizing the CCP.

This is nothing more than an excuse. You think China doesn't also have excuses?
I make a distinction between the incarceration of enemy combatants and prisoners of conscience, yes.

So you buy the excuses of the country whose propaganda is exported worldwide in the language that we are speaking, but not the other. OK.
It's not a question of buying excuses, it's a question of, among other things, justice, and reality.

John Doe enters a country illegally, is apprehended, and sent outside the country.

Jane Doe, a citizen of her country, criticizes her government, and is locked up for the mere act.

I have sympathy for John, but Jane is the one that's suffering more.

Notably, "body count" was absent in your list, as well as military aggression, drone bombing, and so on. Being at war rather than not apparently gives you the moral high ground. As if being at war wasn't a choice to begin with.
Body count isn't a good way of examining morality. By that logic, communism is worse than Nazism.

Second, a lot of the military action you've described falls into grey areas. There's a reason why I'll condemn wholeheartedly the invasion of Iraq, but not the invasion of Afghanistan.

Third, if you want to talk about military aggression, China isn't innocent. Yes, it hasn't invaded Iraq or Afghanistan, but it continues to occupy Tibet, has engaged in armed conflict with India, and is saber rattling against its neighbours, including the threat of 'reunifying' with Taiwan.

I think there is certainly bias and double standards when it comes to how NGOs, independent observers, and so forth treat the United States regime and its co-conspirators as opposed to what they say about governments that the State Department wants hostility with. Bias and double standards that would lead to saying that the United States is not while China is doing a genocide. If the United States falls short of literally doing a holocaust, it's not doing a genocide; if China can be represented as acting in more or less the same way that Canada or the United States has treated their indigenous populations within the last fifty years, then it is doing a genocide.
If you're going back 50 years, then why not go back even further to the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution?

I'm more concerned about what's happenening NOW, not fifty years ago, in which case, you can go as far back as you want. And again, you'd somehow have to equate stuff going on inside the US NOW, with what is happening inside China NOW. If your excuse is that "X did Y in the past," then practically no country in the world could ever criticize another.

Again, my stance is clear. I can, and have, criticize the US for a lot. But it's frankly disturbing to claim that there's moral equivalance with China's actions here.
 

Hawki

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Yeah, and what China’s doing is perfectly legal under their own laws too. Nevermind that refugees arriving at ports of entry is legal under international law. And who gives a fuck if they’re citizens of the country in question. Concentration camps have absolutely nothing to do with citizenship.
I never mentioned legality, so this is a red herring. But again, it's a false equivalance.

People have a right to seek asylum. There isn't an inherent right to cross borders. You're making a suggestion that apprehending people at your border is the moral equivalant of rounding up your own citizens.

And "nothing to do with citizenship?" Okay, yes, technically, but are you saying that border detention centres are on the same scale as forced labour? Are there a million or more people being forced to work?

When you define “enemy combatant” as “able bodied male” it is just as bad.
Who's making that definition?

Except we also have prison slave labor and executions, there is no moral high ground here.
Did you even read what I said? I acknowledged the issues in the US prison system. I pointed out that by all measurements, including the Global Slavery Index, China is doing worse.

We have nowhere near the Muslim population of China.
Which is beside the point, and it's a red herring.

The US has fewer Muslims than China. If the US rounded up its Muslims like China has, of course it would have less Muslims than China. That isn't the point. It's why per capita is a system of measurement. It's why I've pointed out that the US has an incarceraton rate PER CAPITA higher than the rest of the world, not in total. However, the fact remains, the US hasn't subjected its citizens to arbitrary detainment in the same way that China is. Not even at the height of the War on Terror.

And it's also not just Muslims, I also mentioned China's repression of other religious groups. Christianity has de facto, if not de jure special status in the US, but it has freedom of religion while China simply doesn't allow it in any real way. FFS, the next Dalhi Lama is probably going to be CCP approved.

Who cares? We incarcerated them in Iraq at a similar scale to create ISIS in the first place. Citizenship isn’t some special card that makes abuses more or less justifiable. It’s fake nonsense.
First of all, ISIS was created before the invasion of Iraq. It's simply that the invasion of Iraq and withdrawal allowed the conditions for it to thrive.

Second, if you're claiming that the US incarcerated Iraqi citizens on a similar scale to China with the Ughyrs, I'd need to see a source for that.