Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

Hawki

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No. It is as rigidly-hierarchical, corporatist, racist, and authoritarian as the US government, which is as staunch of a condemnation as I can give. I’ve no clue how that’s a “deflection.”
I'm sorry, what?

Jesus Christ, I can't believe I've been put in a position to defend the US government, but to claim that it and the CCP are on the same level?

First of all, the CCP is a single party system, so as flawed as the US government is, it's at least a step up from that.

Second, racist. This is harder to quantify, because racism in the US is different from racism in China. However, even if we accept this as being true, that leaves the question of being "as authoratarian."

Really? The CCP imprisons journalists who speak out against it. The CCP blocks Internet access outside China. The CCP has clamed down on Hong Kong and only allowed "patriots" to run for office. The CCP has extremely limited tolerance for religion. The CCP is the head of an authoratarian state, while the US is democratic. Flawed as hell, yes, but more so than China. And on the subject of refugees, the US may have reduced the intake, but China takes practically none.

Also, fourth, your implication is that the US government is the worse in the world. I...no. Just no. It isn't. Not even the CCP is. In a world where governments like North Korea, Eritrea, and Brunei exist, are you seriously placing these as the worse of the worst?

No, we export our “political” prisoners, or we condemn them for made up crimes such as those enforced through the war on drugs. Personally, I view the vast majority of drug related sentences as qualifying as political prison sentences under a different label, much as China’s “enrichment centers” or what have you are political prisons under a different label.
Even if we accept drug-related offenses as 'political,' China's much harsher on drugs than the US.

Slavery, rape, abuse, and killing aren’t “not as bad” as organ harvesting. They are as bad. It is a wash.
Even if we accept that, one country is doing it more than the other.

To claim otherwise, you'd have to have information that various governmental bodies and NGOs don't.
 
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Kae

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The moment they hit mexico they stop being refugees since mexico is safe, once they go on from there to try and get here they become economic migrants, so economic migrant rules should apply.

The first non-warzone you reach should be the place you stay at, and the worldwide community should pitch in to fund such an endeavor. It's much more efficient than having people do needless and dangerous traveling which ends up costing the world that much more and has worse results.

The US has like almost 20 million illegal immigrants already so I dunno what number you saw that made you think it's not enough.

You said mexico reacted to trump's policy and enacted something that in effect puts migrant kids at risk, I was just reacting to that with the natural thought everyone would have. Mexico is not powerless in how they react to things, they can handle being big boys and acting responsible.
Well since you're talking shit about México, considering the current political and economic climate is directly the fault of the USA's influence since they control approximately 75 to 80% of our market share and the current system of governance we have is also there specifically because of USA's interference during the Mexican Revolutionary war of 1910 (México was fighting for something called Zapatismo which is a form of agrarian Anarchy, the USA interfered and helped fund a Capitalist LIberal movement), maybe the USA should stop talking shit and deal with the consequences of their actions.

After all the reason why people want to go to the USA is the USA's tyrannical economic exploitation of México and the countries in Central & South America that they do the exact same thing to, in some countries even worse than México.

So fuck that, you know the reason why those countries are in such a bad situation is precisely because of imperialist pigs like the USA that keep interfering and destabilizing them not giving them the opportunity to form their own system, there's for example the Zapatist system México wanted, we can't know if it would've worked chances are it wouldn't have since it was explicitly anti-industry (While dumb, it makes sense considering the majority of the Mexican population were serfs in a feudal system of brutal exploitation, very much concentrated on industry, so at the time Mexicans equated industry with that), we don't know if we would have gotten over that and forged actual industry, because Capitalist Imperialist pigs had to shove their noses where it didn't belong, ironically crying it's in the name of freedom while very obviously keeping us subjugated, poor and owing them so much money that they can control the majority of our economy.

And again if you "Liberal" Capitalist pigs really valued freedom, how come you funded Pinochet and Al Qaeda, hell fucking cartels here in México have weapons that belong to the US Army so it's likely they're selling them weapons.

Basically you want to claim we have the responsibility to take care of these people while our own economic problems are directly caused by you and this people are displaced thanks to the excellent job the USA has done in destabilizing South America, so since liberals love the concept of personal responsibility how about providing these people with jobs and food since they don't have one because of the USA, and sure you can blame it on the incompetency of our governments but the USA literally placed our governments there, so it's still the USA's fault.

Also, fourth, your implication is that the US government is the worse in the world. I...no. Just no. It isn't. Not even the CCP is. In a world where governments like North Korea, Eritrea, and Brunei exist, are you seriously placing these as the worse of the worst?
It is worse, while I hate China's government as much as anyone else, the USA has directly made sure that atrocities keep being committed throughout Central & South America, Africa and Eurasia, of course it wasn't the US alone the UK and the European Union are just as bad, but these people are directly responsible for many atrocities that have happened towards what is now considered the "Global South", again while China is awful the scope of what the USA has caused is absolutely massive and should not be minimised, they just tend to be given a free pass because they claim bullshit like "We're liberating them" or "We're fighting terrorists" and whatever but I invite you to come live down here and see people die of thirst due to commodification of water in the name of providing all the hip people throughout the USA with the Avocados they need (Seriously avocados consume a lot of water they are devastating our environment), but rest assured what the USA is doing is jus about as atrocious, if this was a movie they would very much be the evil empire that needs to be defeated.
 

Dreiko

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Well since you're talking shit about México, considering the current political and economic climate is directly the fault of the USA's influence since they control approximately 75 to 80% of our market share and the current system of governance we have is also there specifically because of USA's interference during the Mexican Revolutionary war of 1910 (México was fighting for something called Zapatismo which is a form of agrarian Anarchy, the USA interfered and helped fund a Capitalist LIberal movement), maybe the USA should stop talking shit and deal with the consequences of their actions.

After all the reason why people want to go to the USA is the USA's tyrannical economic exploitation of México and the countries in Central & South America that they do the exact same thing to, in some countries even worse than México.

So fuck that, you know the reason why those countries are in such a bad situation is precisely because of imperialist pigs like the USA that keep interfering and destabilizing them not giving them the opportunity to form their own system, there's for example the Zapatist system México wanted, we can't know if it would've worked chances are it wouldn't have since it was explicitly anti-industry (While dumb, it makes sense considering the majority of the Mexican population were serfs in a feudal system of brutal exploitation, very much concentrated on industry, so at the time Mexicans equated industry with that), we don't know if we would have gotten over that and forged actual industry, because Capitalist Imperialist pigs had to shove their noses where it didn't belong, ironically crying it's in the name of freedom while very obviously keeping us subjugated, poor and owing them so much money that they can control the majority of our economy.

And again if you "Liberal" Capitalist pigs really valued freedom, how come you funded Pinochet and Al Qaeda, hell fucking cartels here in México have weapons that belong to the US Army so it's likely they're selling them weapons.

Basically you want to claim we have the responsibility to take care of these people while our own economic problems are directly caused by you and this people are displaced thanks to the excellent job the USA has done in destabilizing South America, so since liberals love the concept of personal responsibility how about providing these people with jobs and food since they don't have one because of the USA, and sure you can blame it on the incompetency of our governments but the USA literally placed our governments there, so it's still the USA's fault.


It is fundamentally your responsibility to stave off efforts from the US to control your government or to affect you in these ways you describe, and failing to do so is your fault. The US has only to worry about its citizens, it has no responsibilities to the citizens of other countries.

If you want us to have the responsibility to take care of those people you gotta become provinces of the US first, that's how this works. Otherwise as soon as they hit mexico, they're your problem.
 

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It is fundamentally your responsibility to stave off efforts from the US to control your government or to affect you in these ways you describe, and failing to do so is your fault. The US has only to worry about its citizens, it has no responsibilities to the citizens of other countries.

If you want us to have the responsibility to take care of those people you gotta become provinces of the US first, that's how this works. Otherwise as soon as they hit mexico, they're your problem.
What absolutely shit take, then you're saying it's OK for the USA to go around committing war crimes all over the world and that is somehow not their fault?
It's about time the USA accepts the fact that they are fucking terrorist genocidal maniacs and that they are held accountable for it, of course we can't because the USA, the European Union and all the other rich states have made sure to have such massive control of all global economy that it's extremely hard to repel them, some have done it successfully, we can look at Cuba and Vietnam for good examples of that, but the level of absolute economic as well as military devastation they had to endure in order to repel that was absolutely devastating, to the point that it was very easy for the western powers like the USA & the EU to declare them as failed states while they simultaneously blockaded economic trade towards them directly causing the conditions they were claiming were the fault of those states directly, in any case there's little point in discussing this further with you as it doesn't seem like you understand economic imperialism.
 

Seanchaidh

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Again, my stance is clear. I can, and have, criticize the US for a lot. But it's frankly disturbing to claim that there's moral equivalance with China's actions here.
You should be disturbed! The United States is evil.

Body count isn't a good way of examining morality. By that logic, communism is worse than Nazism.
Well, no, since you can't really blame an economic system for the various crimes of leaders of countries in the same way that you can blame an ideology that deliberately promotes war and racism. But you can blame capitalist structural violence for suffering and death caused by poverty and so forth. And you can compare country to country concerning "moral high ground".

But anyway, the reason the body count is so striking is because the United States has a much smaller population.

Second, a lot of the military action you've described falls into grey areas. There's a reason why I'll condemn wholeheartedly the invasion of Iraq, but not the invasion of Afghanistan.
And that reason is that you've bought into the imperial propaganda at least somewhat. But anyway, these were both wars of choice, so the killings that have resulted are on us.

Yes, it hasn't invaded Iraq or Afghanistan, but it continues to occupy Tibet, has engaged in armed conflict with India, and is saber rattling against its neighbours, including the threat of 'reunifying' with Taiwan.
And yet it hasn't been drone bombing people for the last decade and a half.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It is fundamentally your responsibility to stave off efforts from the US to control your government or to affect you in these ways you describe, and failing to do so is your fault. The US has only to worry about its citizens, it has no responsibilities to the citizens of other countries.

If you want us to have the responsibility to take care of those people you gotta become provinces of the US first, that's how this works. Otherwise as soon as they hit mexico, they're your problem.
It is fundamentally your responsibility to not get shot, and if I successfully shoot you then you have failed in your responsibility and I am blameless

Fuck man, at least fascists take responsibility/credit for killing people. You're just aiming to be a bully's best fucking friend.
 

Dreiko

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It is fundamentally your responsibility to not get shot, and if I successfully shoot you then you have failed in your responsibility and I am blameless

Fuck man, at least fascists take responsibility/credit for killing people. You're just aiming to be a bully's best fucking friend.
I dunno where you got the blameless bit, as I just stated above that I'm against wars and foreign intervention.


Two wrongs don't make a right. This whole "you did this bad thing to me so now I get to be justified in failing my people" isn't how things work. No matter what people do to you, you're still responsible for taking care of your people as a country, and you still failed your people if you succumb to external powers aiming to undermine you.


Nobody's arguing whether such an attempt is good or not, the argument is that being the case that such attempts will be made as an order of business, what is a nation's duty and obligation to its people existing within this environment.
 

Kwak

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No matter what people do to you, you're still responsible for taking care of your people as a country, and you still failed your people if you succumb to external powers aiming to undermine you.
This is literally monstrous.
If you fail to repel an overwhelming force and don't at least die trying, it's YOUR fault and responsibility? What the fuck libertarian **** bullshit is this?
 

Kae

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I dunno where you got the blameless bit, as I just stated above that I'm against wars and foreign intervention.


Two wrongs don't make a right. This whole "you did this bad thing to me so now I get to be justified in failing my people" isn't how things work. No matter what people do to you, you're still responsible for taking care of your people as a country, and you still failed your people if you succumb to external powers aiming to undermine you.


Nobody's arguing whether such an attempt is good or not, the argument is that being the case that such attempts will be made as an order of business, what is a nation's duty and obligation to its people existing within this environment.
 

Hawki

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You should be disturbed! The United States is evil.
Then we need something worse than "evil" to describe China.

Well, no, since you can't really blame an economic system for the various crimes of leaders of countries in the same way that you can blame an ideology that deliberately promotes war and racism. But you can blame capitalist structural violence for suffering and death caused by poverty and so forth. And you can compare country to country concerning "moral high ground".
You're applying double standards there. You're saying it's okay to blame "capitalist structural violence," but that you can separate communist leaders from the ideology they espoused.

Also, communism kind of does promote war, or at least, the way Lenin and others interpreted it. Why do you think so much time was spent trying to spread it. And while it might not promote racism, it does have a similar "othering" factor as Nazism, only based on class rather than ethnicity.

But anyway, the reason the body count is so striking is because the United States has a much smaller population.
By what metric?

If you want to compare body counts, how far back do you want to go? The bodies that can be laid at Mao's feet alone for instance...

And that reason is that you've bought into the imperial propaganda at least somewhat. But anyway, these were both wars of choice, so the killings that have resulted are on us.
Saying Afghanistan was a choice is a technicality. Yes, the US could have not invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. We can speculate what would have happened afterwards. But if one country attacks another, it's within the country's rights to respond.

Also, the Taliban aren't saints.

And yet it hasn't been drone bombing people for the last decade and a half.
No, it's done all matter of other attrocities, as I've listed countless times.

done it successfully, we can look at Cuba and Vietnam for good examples of that, but the level of absolute economic as well as military devastation they had to endure in order to repel that was absolutely devastating, to the point that it was very easy for the western powers like the USA & the EU to declare them as failed states while they simultaneously blockaded economic trade towards them directly causing the conditions they were claiming were the fault of those states directly, in any case there's little point in discussing this further with you as it doesn't seem like you understand economic imperialism.
Cuba and Vietnam? Really?

Okay, let's start with Cuba. I'm aware of Baptista and Castro and all that, but the US hasn't blockaded Cuba since 1962, the EU is Cuba's largest trading partner, and Cuba survived through the Cold War via subsidies via the USSR. You've also conveniently left out Cuba's human rights record. You could make the argument that normalizing relations would help, but relations with China have been normalized for decades, it didn't make China more liberal. Cuba beats the US in a number of areas (e.g. life expectancy per capita), but Cuba isn't some worker's paradise. There's a reason why even now, people are leaving the island.

As for Vietnam, again, that's a simplification. I'm going to give you the credit of assuming that you know of the history of Vietnam in the 20th century (French colony, then divided between North and South, Vietnam War occurs, North wins, massive Vietnamese diaspora as a result), but I don't see how anyone can claim the moral high ground in that conflict. The North was supported by China and the USSR, the South by the USA and its allies. However, Vietnam is doing much better than Cuba. Paradoxically, it's seen as a key US ally. And a lot of the increases in wealth came from liberalizing the economy, even if the state still has a lot of control.

Frankly, the US is insanely capitalist to me, but those above examples you gave aren't exactly cheerleaders for communism or socialism.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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I dunno where you got the blameless bit, as I just stated above that I'm against wars and foreign intervention.


Two wrongs don't make a right. This whole "you did this bad thing to me so now I get to be justified in failing my people" isn't how things work. No matter what people do to you, you're still responsible for taking care of your people as a country, and you still failed your people if you succumb to external powers aiming to undermine you.


Nobody's arguing whether such an attempt is good or not, the argument is that being the case that such attempts will be made as an order of business, what is a nation's duty and obligation to its people existing within this environment.
"Look, you failed your family when I shot your dog and stole your car, I don't see why you expect me to give your car back or compensate you in any way, it's not my responsibility"
 

fOx

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problem is China loves getting it's own way like that. It gets to play struggle sessions which it has a long history of doing.
That's fine. Struggle sessions go from sad to funny when it's just some losers in a room ranting at a foreign dignitary.

In any case, America has a pretty fucking terrible track record of human rights abuse. But that doesn't excuse china's use of concentration camps, or their crack down on civil liberties, which are among the worst in the entirety of the first world. I don't think I have faith in biden to bring china to heel, but his attempt to bring a united front of world powers against china is more effective then what trump was doing. Trump foolishly thought he could bring the weight of the american economy down to bare upon the ccp. It's way too late for that, their economy is already too large. Soon it will dwarf ours, and when it does, they will also be able to afford a larger military. The U.S. needs allies to face china. Biden, even in his stupidity, understands this. Or his handlers do, atleast.
 
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Hawki

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That's fine. Struggle sessions go from sad to funny when it's just some losers in a room ranting at a foreign dignitary.

In any case, America has a pretty fucking terrible track record of human rights abuse. But that doesn't excuse china's use of concentration camps, or their crack down on civil liberties, which are among the worst in the entirety of the first world. I don't think I have faith in biden to bring china to heel, but his attempt to bring a united front of world powers against china is more effective then what trump was doing. Trump foolishly thought he could bring the weight of the american economy down to bare upon the ccp. It's way too late for that, their economy is already too large. Soon it will dwarf ours, and when it does, they will also be able to afford a larger military. The U.S. needs allies to face china. Biden, even in his stupidity, understands this. Or his handlers do, atleast.
This might be surprising coming from me, since I've been pointing out China's abuses in this thread, but I'm kind of left to ask what the point of containing China even is.

China, at the least, is more or less content to be horrible within its own borders. But if we're talking about containing it, does China really have any allies in its region? Yes, it's allies with Russia and Iran, and is supporting Myanmar and North Korea, but apart from that?

I mean, it's already at odds with India, Japan is a US ally, Vietnam is kind of one, and so on, and so forth.

I mean, let's be honest, we can all agree that China is doing horrible things, but is it going to stop because of finger pointing? No. Is there going to be conflict? Jesus Christ, I hope not. The idea that China would adopt liberal democracy was wrong when the prediction was made, and it isn't going to happen.

And, admittedly, since my belief is that the climate crisis is the No. 1 issue facing the world, I'd rather China be onboard, because what it and the US do over the coming century will be crucial. More than any other single country.
 

fOx

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This might be surprising coming from me, since I've been pointing out China's abuses in this thread, but I'm kind of left to ask what the point of containing China even is.

China, at the least, is more or less content to be horrible within its own borders. But if we're talking about containing it, does China really have any allies in its region? Yes, it's allies with Russia and Iran, and is supporting Myanmar and North Korea, but apart from that?

I mean, it's already at odds with India, Japan is a US ally, Vietnam is kind of one, and so on, and so forth.

I mean, let's be honest, we can all agree that China is doing horrible things, but is it going to stop because of finger pointing? No. Is there going to be conflict? Jesus Christ, I hope not. The idea that China would adopt liberal democracy was wrong when the prediction was made, and it isn't going to happen.

And, admittedly, since my belief is that the climate crisis is the No. 1 issue facing the world, I'd rather China be onboard, because what it and the US do over the coming century will be crucial. More than any other single country.
China is expanding asymetricly. People think that, because they aren't expanding their territory (currently) they aren't a major imperialist threat. This is inaccurate. They are practicing economic imperialism and expansionism. They're investing untold billions into infastructure in third world countries around the world, most notably in Africa. They are buying up land, stock, and corporations, in other countries all over the world, allowing them to integrate themselves into the economies of the world. This allows their government to influence foreign governments through economic pressure, and to use companies as mouth pieces for the CCP's propaganda.

I've said it before. I want a second cold war. It's preferable to the alternative: a world where china becomes the chief global super power militarily, economically, and culturally.
 

Hawki

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When did Afghanistan attack the US?
Fine, the Taliban, which ran 90% of Afghanistan at the time, attacked the United States.


I've said it before. I want a second cold war. It's preferable to the alternative: a world where china becomes the chief global super power militarily, economically, and culturally.
We're arguably already in a second Cold War. It's a hot war I'm afraid of.
 

fOx

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Fine, the Taliban, which ran 90% of Afghanistan at the time, attacked the United States.




We're arguably already in a second Cold War. It's a hot war I'm afraid of.
With who? Certainly not china.

China is smart. They're using our capitalist system to destroy us from the inside.
 

Kwak

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Fine, the Taliban, which ran 90% of Afghanistan at the time, attacked the United States.

No, they didn't.


...
On the day of 9/11, the Taliban foreign minister told the Arab television network Al Jazeera: "We denounce this terrorist attack, whoever is behind it."[98]

The United States requested the Taliban to shut down all al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan, open them to inspection and turn over Osama bin Laden. The Taliban refused all these requests. Instead they offered to extradite Osama bin Laden to an Islamic country, for trial under Islamic law, if the United States presented evidence of his guilt.

....
In November 29, 2007, a videotape was released that The Central Intelligence Agency says is likely to be from bin Laden. In it the speaker claims sole responsibility for the attacks and specifically denies any prior knowledge of them by The Taliban or the Afghan people.[101]
 

Hawki

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No, they didn't.


...
On the day of 9/11, the Taliban foreign minister told the Arab television network Al Jazeera: "We denounce this terrorist attack, whoever is behind it."[98]

The United States requested the Taliban to shut down all al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan, open them to inspection and turn over Osama bin Laden. The Taliban refused all these requests. Instead they offered to extradite Osama bin Laden to an Islamic country, for trial under Islamic law, if the United States presented evidence of his guilt.

....
In November 29, 2007, a videotape was released that The Central Intelligence Agency says is likely to be from bin Laden. In it the speaker claims sole responsibility for the attacks and specifically denies any prior knowledge of them by The Taliban or the Afghan people.[101]
I'm not sure that exonerates the Taliban per se. Bin Laden claimed responsibility for the attacks. They could have turned him over. They didn't. That's not even getting into the Taliban themselves.

With who? Certainly not china.

China is smart. They're using our capitalist system to destroy us from the inside.
Um, yes, with China.

It's not the same as the old Cold War in that trade is still going on, but it's still a Cold War in that it's diplomatic spats instead of war, and competing for influence.