BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal

[kasperbbs]

I agree with him, but that doesn't mean that i have to like the ending. If they do decide to change it i will be happy, if they don't then whatever. I'm just sad that in the end it doesn't really matter what i did during those hundreds of hours of gameplay, especially when ME2's ending was so good, i had several playthrougs before i got everything right and everyone survived. I tried to do the same in ME3, but apparently having over 7000 military stregth and making everyone get along was pointless, next time i play it i might as well tell everyone to fuck off and get the same result.

 

[RuralGamer]

The majority of people aren't mad about the "sad" or "downer" nature of the endings, god damnit. People are mad that they spent 100+ hours on a series, only for every single choice they made to be thrown out the window and not make a single damn difference in the end.

This, of course, is after we were told that our choices actually would matter.

Pretty much this; what the heck is the point in an ending that takes effectively nothing into account save a score; choices are irrelevant, save that you got enough score to get a certain ending. That is a terrible ending, especially that so much time and effort has been invested to get it. Hey, I wouldn't have minded Shepard dying/going MIA in the ending, but "choice-then-cutscene" is not a very fulfilling ending.

Yeah, maybe games are an art form Ken, but you forget that people paid for this piece of art and didn't receive what they were told they would. I think people have the right to be angry then, no?

captcha is "pipe down", how ironic...

 

[Frotality]

people need to understand that the ending isnt hated for its artistic failings, not really. bioware plain lied to us about how the game would end, stating publicly that this specific A, B, or C ending would not happen. saying specifically that every question yet to be answered answered will be.

this isnt just a bad ending. it is a mechanically faulty ending. it is false advertising. it is a consumer product not functioning as advertised. stop with the hyperbolic madness of artist's now caving in to fan dissatisfaction. it is bioware who made wild promises of things they completely failed to deliver. fucking peter monyleux didint lie this bad.

the only question now is whether it is free or not. if it is free, i dont care how terrible it ends up, at least they are making an honest effort. if it isnt, then bioware/EA can take their "ransom the real ending" scheme and shove it right up their collective asses.

 

[Centrophy]

It's funny how the industry is all on the same side, it's almost like they're politicians parroting the party line and trying to control the narrative of the story. If you can consider games "art" then you would also have to consider it to be more like a commissioned work. If the customer isn't happy, he's not going to pay you until you change it. Sadly in today's market the seller always gets their cash up front.

I'm sure it's also been mentioned before, but various authors, including very famous ones like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Charles Dickens have had to change their books after they were published due to customer backlash. Something to think about. You can also look at a recent entry, Mass Effect: Deception, that too needed to be changed due to fan backlash.

InB4; You readers are so entitled to wanting a book without plot holes, and wanting to change the artist's vision. Don't like it don't buy it, or if you already bought it don't buy any more of their books in the future.

 

[sabercrusader]

You know, I respect Levine for this, I may not agree, but I respect his opinion. And he does have a point, I seriously doubt that all the ending complaints will die down when it's fixed, most of them maybe, but not all. I'll shut up about it when they do.

 

[Toncoroc]

I never really cared if my choices made a difference , i just wanted Mass Effect 3´s ending to bring closure to Shepard´s story, and his quest to save the galaxy from the Reapers.

But the astronomical number of plot holes made that problematic.

I hate this ending with every fiber of my being.

But i´m not gonna threaten to never buy another Bioware product ever again. What if there is another Dragon Age game coming out?

 

[Electric Alpaca]

Good move, this gentleman agreeing with my mentality has confirmed my purchase of Bioshock: Infinite.

If BioWare succumb and offer a revised ending, I will not play their games past this. The trouble with this "outrage" is that it is only delivered by a certain type of individual.

I'm not going to attempt slander here, but we all know of whom fits the criteria to believe their personal belief of how something should go should be shouted from the rooftops and imposed.

Mass Effect is over, accept it. If the ending is changed, it is quite clearly pandering and personally it ruins the integrity of the company if they are willing to bastardise their work to satisfy the vocal fraction of their total consumer base.

I hope they charge $30.00 for it if done. If you're "upset" enough to go to lengths to remove this ending, you'll definitely pay through the nose for it and you should be cleansed of as much money as possible.

 

[370999]

You know, I respect Levine for this, I may not agree, but I respect his opinion. And he does have a point, I seriously doubt that all the ending complaints will die down when it's fixed, most of them maybe, but not all. I'll shut up about it when they do.

Yeah but not pleasing everybody is very very different from pleasing basically nobody. Very few people actually like these endings, at best they tolerate them.

So Yeah he's right you can't please everybody but you could damm well attempt to please more then you are at the moment.

But it has been documented on numerous occasions that Conan Doyle wanted to move away from Sherlock, finding the books boring and wishing to write "something more adult". It wasn't until the culmination of massive fan uproar and the publishers [bold]offering good money[/bold] for the pulp material that he returned

I always thought it was the financial side of things that compelled him to return to it. That is equally in play for Bioware/EA of course.

 

[Therumancer]

I think the point is being missed here by Levine, which doesn't surprise me because "Bioshock 2" got some pretty substantial criticisms on it's writing.

The key to understanding this issue is to realize there is a differance between an ending a few vocal fanboys don't like, and and ending that virtually everyone dislikes.

What's more there is also the factor that this game was intended to be a triology, but Bioware/EA decided to turn it into a franchise, and thus the ending isn't viewed as being art, but as a way of basically not resolving anything in a direct fashion so they could make more money off of it. This is a BIG part of the reception which I think a lot of people are missing.

Then there is the whole issue connected to the above that Bioware made promises involving the ending which were not met.

Like it or not, the "games as art" defense can't be applied to companies just flat out screwing up or a way of justifying profiteering overcoming the writing and design. People saying that games can be a platform to create art doesn't mean that the potential is a get out of jail free card for developers to prtentiously invoke "art" as a defense of anything they want to do.

What's more, art can still suck, really it can. Artists frequently wind up changing their work based on reception, especially when they are working for money.

Look at it this way, if you go to a theater to see a film and it sucks to the point of upsetting the majority of people, those people will demand their money back and receive it. Being "Art" doesn't change the fact that the work sucks. In the case of ME3 once you pay for it, your stuck even if you thinkt the ending was a huge waste.

What's more those creating art not intended for the mainstream typically do so in free shows or to a very limited audience, not as a mass market production like ME3. See, a little independant game costs you nothing but time, or only a few bucks (which in many cases is pushing it), Mass Effect 3 cost you $60 freaking bucks minimum, and $180 or more accross the whole trilogy.

There is no defense for the way Bioware dropped the ball here, none. It's true that they will probably not be able to create a universally rave-worthy ending, but they CAN create an ending that won't be universally hated by nearly everyone.

 

[Hyper-space]

The majority of people aren't mad about the "sad" or "downer" nature of the endings, god damnit. People are mad that they spent 100+ hours on a series, only for every single choice they made to be thrown out the window and not make a single damn difference in the end.

This, of course, is after we were told that our choices actually would matter.

Exactly.

This is just the point that everyone on the other side of the argument is missing. We were not angry because the story didn't end the way we wanted it to, we're angry because everything we did amounted to shit. Frankly I see this as more of a gameplay/structure issue than a problem with the script itself.

We want 2 things:

1) Closure. This is NOT the same as a happy ending. Closure simply means we want a fair ending which ties up the loose ends and doesn't create more plot holes. Even when terrible events happen you can still find closure afterwards.

Subjective, not everything NEEDS to have closure. Leaving us with some questions to ask ourselves ("did I do the right thing?") can make the journey that more poignant.

Imagine if people were to start demanding a full background on who the G-Man is, you would think its stupid to demand things to change according to your own subjective preferences...

...But that is exactly what you are doing.

2) Choice. We wanted an ending based on OUR decisions, you know, the ones we spent three whole games making. Choices that were given more consideration and investment than some of our own real-life, everyday choices! Instead we all got the same ending. Everyone got the same ending. Paragon Shepards and Renegade Shepards got the same ending. I got the same ending as you and you and you.

The same ending.

You mean how you got the same ending in both Mass Effect 1 and 2, despite any of the choices that you made?

In ME3, the choices that you made and your accomplishment actually had SOME effect on how the ending panned out. Because to get the Synthesis choice you had to have enough war assets. That's more of an effect than in Mass Effect 1 and 2.

Funny that no one demanded that they change the ending back then.

 

[Joush]

You can defend the ending and claim that, as art, it shouldn't be changed to reflect the desires of the people that will buy it.

It's shitty art, however. The ending is crap from every possible perspective (artistic, narrative, game play..) Calling something art doesn't make it immune to criticism.

So yeah, Bioware has a right to keep the ending as it is. We have the right to return games or sell them to gamestop for the expressed reason of making sure EA makes less money on sales.

 

[LongMuckDong]

Fuck off Ken - you pouting little *****.. this is the exception to the rule.. Mass Effect (as of 4 hours ago) has DLC confirmed to continue the adventure, not re-write it.

It's funny, you can tell someone who has maybe played part of Mass Effect 3 (or none of it) vs. Someone who has completed it.. the eyes.. it's all in the eyes.

 

[Joush]

You mean how you got the same ending in both Mass Effect 1 and 2, despite any of the choices that you made?

In ME3, the choices that you made and your accomplishment actually had SOME effect on how the ending panned out. Because to get the Synthesis choice you had to have enough war assets. That's more of an effect than in Mass Effect 1 and 2.

Funny that no one demanded that they change the ending back then.

The endings to ME 1 and 2 worked from a gameplay and narrative perspective, closing the story in a satisfying way that also -seemed- to offer a last choice that would be explored later.

In ME one, a major battle up the side of the citadel tower, followed by a fight up the steps of the council chambers themselves to confront the foe the game had built up the whole game. Then you get to choose to kill or save the council, and who should be the human consular.

In ME two, a complex suicide mission that reflected how you played. Hard work gets paid off with survival, while bad choices and a lack of preparation can get lots of characters you've spent a lot of time with killed. In the end, you choose to destroy the collector base or not.

In ME 3 the main character is crippled and the last fight is vs Murader Shields (never forget), then a long, deliberatly dreamlike sequence where the reapers fall totally out of focus as the primary threat of the game, instead giving a final 'battle' with the Illusive Man that dose little to satisfy, followed by the introduction of a godlike being that is admittedly the worst mass murder in history, whom you do -nothing- to question or denounce. Then an ending cinematic that is full of stupid errors, and has only tiny differences depending on your EMS (The only time EMS is used, ever, in the game).

 

[LongMuckDong]

Good move, this gentleman agreeing with my mentality has confirmed my purchase of Bioshock: Infinite.

If BioWare succumb and offer a revised ending, I will not play their games past this. The trouble with this "outrage" is that it is only delivered by a certain type of individual.

I'm not going to attempt slander here, but we all know of whom fits the criteria to believe their personal belief of how something should go should be shouted from the rooftops and imposed.

Mass Effect is over, accept it. If the ending is changed, it is quite clearly pandering and personally it ruins the integrity of the company if they are willing to bastardise their work to satisfy the vocal fraction of their total consumer base.

I hope they charge $30.00 for it if done. If you're "upset" enough to go to lengths to remove this ending, you'll definitely pay through the nose for it and you should be cleansed of as much money as possible.

What if it's (and this is the most likely scenario) a continuation, with nothing adjusted - aka - The Indoctrination Theory DLC.

Will you pack a sad then, or be in limbo, unsure whether to cry or frown?

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Big ME fan. The ending wasnt as good as it could have been but overall i dont care. I still enjoyed the game and the history etc behind it all. One crappy ending wont change that.Use your imagination for fucks sake, do you really want everything spelled out for you? What if what Bioware says happens to Grunt after ME3 doesnt match what you think? What if Grunt abandoned war and opens a flower shop on earth?

 

[SanguineSymphony]

Again, people make the claim that art is something that exists only in the mind of the artist and can't be changed and people just need to get that, and again comparisons are made to works in different forms of media!

Why don't we draw comparisons to other games when discussing the "change the ending" subject. Why, I myself can think of a game that was released a few years back that had its ending changed due to fan complaints.

Was Bethesda's artistic integrity less valuable than Bioware's when they changed the ending of Fallout 3? Didn't they also have the right not to let their fans bully them into submission?

Of course they did; they could've told fans "Nope, screw y'all, ending stays." They didn't though. They chose to listen to fans and change the ending because it was a good business move.

I believe games are art, but they're also a huge money making business. A business which is fueled by the fans, so it's a good idea from a business stance, to placate the fans. Now Bioware doesn't have to do this, they can say that they don't intend to change the ending and then the fans would drop the matter, and incidentally they'd probably also stop buying Bioware games.

They're perfectly within their rights to stick to their artistic vision and tell the fans to suck it up, but it would be a good business move for them to make an ending change DLC. Not just for Mass Effect 3's profits but for the profits of future Bioware games.

50,000+ people have expressed disappointment with Mass Effect 3's ending and many of them have said that they won't buy another Bioware product until their complaints are addressed. Assuming they all bought it new for 60 bucks, that's 3 million dollars in sales. Even if 50,000 is a small fraction of the 3.5 million people who've purchased the game, 3 million dollars is not a sum to sneeze at.
Now assuming those 50,000 people stay true to their word and never buy another Bioware game or product again, that's 3 million dollars in potentially lost sales. That might not matter for a hugely popular game like Mass Effect 3, but for a new IP or for a less popular series, that 3 million could make or break it.

The problem the game industry has the with their incomplete auteur theory is that their medium is very expensive and much more of a commercial endeavor then some of the other mediums they liken themselves to. Usually an art film is a low budget affair with limited funding and thus limited expectation of return. Which allows the filmmaker a great deal more freedom when using challenging themes, symbolism etc. A game like Mass Effect is a huge event and costs the publisher millions in Dev and Marketing.

I personally have never expected much in the way of "artistic integrity" when it comes to blockbuster forms of media. Whether that medium is considered one of art or not. It saddens me to a degree that the industry doesn't accept that with the budgets they take on they are responsible to release a commercially successful product and that in some part will under-cut their suppositions of art. They become a slave in one form or another to the consumer at that point.


and for the record I don't personally care about the series or if they update their ending. Its just to cry art after spending so much damn money and being forced to be so profitable and popular (you know for when they make their next blockbuster game) is craven and a cop out.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

Subjective, not everything NEEDS to have closure. Leaving us with some questions to ask ourselves ("did I do the right thing?") can make the journey that more poignant.

Imagine if people were to start demanding a full background on who the G-Man is, you would think its stupid to demand things to change according to your own subjective preferences...

...But that is exactly what you are doing.

Subjective indeed, I'll agree with you there. I have no problem wondering if what I did was the right thing. All I ask is some kind of explaination as to what it was I actually DID.

None of the three endings provide adequate information about what each of them meant for the galaxy at large and I could speculate that every ending had exactly the same consequences because they were identical aside from different colours of magical laser beam.

Your analogy involving the G-Man is also flawed. I find the G-Man to be a very enigmatic figure and I love him as an antagonist because he is so wonderfully vague in his motives, so much so that it's not entirely clear if he really is an antagonist at all. We are exposed to him on very few occassions and frankly there's no real evidence to say he even exists.

I like that. I also liked that the Reapers were not entirely explained. Massive, looming threats, incomprehensible to the human mind. They seemingly wipe out all life in our galaxy for no reason beyond the fact that they "just can." That is until the ending, whereupon they are revealed to be part of some sort of intergalactic conspiracy to save us from ourselves by killing us. Huh, I preferred it when I didn't know. Just like the G-Man.

You mean how you got the same ending in both Mass Effect 1 and 2, despite any of the choices that you made?

In ME3, the choices that you made and your accomplishment actually had SOME effect on how the ending panned out. Because to get the Synthesis choice you had to have enough war assets. That's more of an effect than in Mass Effect 1 and 2.

Funny that no one demanded that they change the ending back then.

Ok fair point. BUT Mass Effect 2 had a dynamic ending. It's not about the ending itself per se, more about how you get there.

Mass Effect 2's final level was an exciting assault on an impossible target. The whole event took into account everything you had done in the game previously. Crew members would die if you had not upgraded the Normandy fully, they would die if you send the wrong specialist to a perform a certain task. Should enough of your crew die, you might even FAIL the mission and die yourself. You are presented with an ultimate choice at the end which will have consequences later on.

Mass Effect 3's final battle was just a load of enemies thrown at you in increasingly heavy waves. No choices came into effect here, nothing you had done previously had any bearing on how you performed or even if you succeeded. You were pushed into a linear path towards a linear goal where you got an A, B or C choice based on nothing else in the whole trilogy.

The only saving grace was the mind battle with Anderson and TIM, which is really where the game should have truly ended.

 

[him over there]

Sorry Ken but even though it's a creative property it was still a product. a product in a business. A product in a business with an extremely high risk competitive market. A product in a business with an extremely high risk competitive market that failed to deliver what was blatantly promised. Fans have every right to be upset about it, bioware probably should compensate for it if they want to keep them, even if its art you still have critics and a target audience to satisfy and if you aren't doing that your game is shit and people are entitled to complain about it.

If you want your special snowflake game to remain totally the same then why bother making a million dollar aaa title that exists solely to appease and entertain people for money? In fact if you don't care what people think and just want to make your pet project vision then why let others play it? Part of art is taking in what others think. You can make a terrible shitty piece of trash but don't say "Pffft I intended to" when a mob of people tell you how terrible and shitty it is.

 

[disgruntledgamer]

When 90% of the audience agrees it sucks and want it redone it hardly divides them it unites them. And it's not considered art when it's a clear ripoff of someone else's work ie (Deus EX) It's called plagiarism.

 

[DANEgerous]

If they do not want to make a better ending FINE be the lats season of "Dallas" for gamers, jump that shark whatever just know that the majority of gamer view you product at crap now and on many levels they should the ending was bland you are going to get demands for refunds when something is done poorly.

Do you have to respect that demand? Hell no, keep all the money. Do you have to respect the criticism? Yeah you do, if most people agree your game is crap more than likely it is and they will never be a customer again. Is that not true of all forms of art?