Bioshock Writer Fed Up With Industry

[Lunar Templar]

Oh for christ sake. They're games, can you really be so dense as to be surprised when the GAMEplay of the GAME take more precedence over story?

And why are we so concerned about being compared to other media? Games have different rules to films and books, and by trying to make games more like them, you cheapen the medium.

If this is the kind of person we have writing games, I'm glad she's gone.

having good game play is no excuse for not having an at least decent story, especially now. Besides, you think most these devs care if they're 'cheapening the medium'? For that to even cross there minds they'd need to see it as an art-form, more Okami/SotC/Dust less Madden/CoD/Gears if you will, but we all know which are more likely to get green lit now don't we

 

[LetalisK]

I agree with her that story needs to be taken more seriously in games. However...

Susan O'Connor knows a thing or two about writing for video games. A games writer for nearly a decade, she's worked on titles like Bioshock, Far Cry 2, and this year's Tomb Raider reboot. Those games are often heralded as superb examples of games with good writing, and certainly represent a high point in O'Connor's career.

Are you kidding me? Far Cry 2 had barely any story and what was there was pure shit. If you want to use Far Cry 2 as an example of a gorgeous game with decent mechanics and combat falling flat on its ass because of a lack of story, much less a good story, perfect. But as an example of a good story? Hell no. It makes me wonder if Heisler has a clue of what he's talking about.

 

[bells]

the amopunt of "DENSE" in this thread is too high.

For fuck sakes........

her point is clear and HAS been proved over and over. in MOST, the LARGE MAJORITY of all great game company, where the greatest art assets lie, where the big budgets are... you cannot come in with a super story and have a game built around that.

in MOST cases, it's the other way around. There is a mechanic, a game is built around that. Then the story gets added in, and it has to fit all the possibilities and limitations of the mechanics already agreed by the technical team. Even if they
have no point in the story the writer would like to tell, regardless of how good it may be.

It's like you getting a book deal worldwide where you are told to write a book but are given a box with marketing assets and description of characters, places and events that your book must contain. It can be done, it can even be good, but you will never be able to create the book the way you want to.

Unless you move to a lower tier developer and very specialized games.

her point being that when i want story in my game i should not just look out for Telltalle or the next look-alike. i Should be able to find it in any game that sells itself with a story. So, not ALL games must have a big grand story... but those who do, should be more honest about it. You don't have your engine designer and lead artist defining what a writer can or cannot write about... that's not how you do story properly. And yet, this is how games are done.

So... she can't simply "trailblaze". It's stupid and near sighted to even come to that conclusion. The fact is that, any great writer that want to work in games has 3 options... have a publisher love your work so much that they make games FOR your book (witcher) even if they butch the story here and there... or have your story completely drive the game in lower tiers and tiny budgets (as most indies do). Or get a big paycheck for a big selling game earned in a job well done in a story you wrote by connecting the dots that a bunch of non-writers gave to you.

That's the landscape we have right now, and guess what? the VERY FEW good examples of story leading design of a story based game don't annul the fact that the majority of story driven games is lead by mechanics. And not all writers want that, because it's a limitation of freedom of creativity impose just to market it more.

That's her argument. it's not hard to understand... i baffle to see just how many people here so blindly missed such a simple point.

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

Well, you can't really expect much with the audience that games attract compared to books for example. If she wants to turn to another medium, good for her, and I am kind of interested.

 

[NiPah]

"It's been an ongoing dissatisfaction that's always been there. But the more savvy I got - and I've been working on these great projects that are arguably the best ever made - it's like, 'This is the mountaintop, and this still isn't cutting it.'"

Pfft mountaintop my ass, credit where credit is due for Bioshock but even with that factored in she's barely above par in writing. Sure the FPS genre has some flops as far as writing goes, it has some damn amazing gems too, certainly much better then even her crowning achievement Bioshock. If she can't make use of the tools she has then that seems more of a personal issue, she would be complaining about the inadequacy of movies or TVs if life had put her in those writing positions. Enjoy writing for Big Bang or what ever it is thats popular these days outside of gaming.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

She wrote Bioshock, Levine wrote Infinite. That makes things so much clearer to me now. Thank you, Susan.

On another note, it sounds like she's ready for "the big leagues" of writing, mediums where the writing is the central focus. Some of our champions in video game writing are games like Shadow of the Colossus, where the actual text is minimal and the story is in the gameplay itself. Hell, she's only considered a great writer because of audiologs existing in Bioshock, as well as the "masterpiece" and "A man chooses" segments, which involved very little player input. They could have made the 95 percent of Bioshock, brought her in to write the audiologs, and figured out where to hide and pepper them about in order.

It sounds like she either needs to take a pay cut and offer her services to an indie studio willing to build from the ground up for her, or just move on and do work that's solely dialog and story, such as books. She's not going to get what she's asking from the AAA market, and she seems aware of that fact too. Whatever she chooses, she has my thanks for what enjoyment she's offered me up to this point.

 

[MrBaskerville]

The thing about game stories is that they can do somethings, but they aren´t good at everything, if you want to make something like a drama or something thought provoking, you really should consider writing a book or a movie instead. Not that there´s anything wrong what that, every media has it´s strenght and it´s weaknesses and Games strenght just happens to be gameplay and not deep involving stories.

 

[Dryk]

This sort of thread is going to crop up more and more quite soon. We've already seen an explosion in discussions of ludo-narrative dissonance lately and I'm not surprised she's completely sick of it. I am too.

 

[Strazdas]

she's worked on titles like Bioshock, Far Cry 2, and this year's Tomb Raider reboot. Those games are often heralded as superb examples of games with good writing

No. No. Far Cry 2 was an awful game and story in there were pretty much non-existen to begin with. All the story contained around 15 minutes and the rest were generic "go there kill this" missions that repeated themselves over and over and over again.
If that is a highpoint of her career away with the likes of her.

her point is clear and HAS been proved over and over. in MOST, the LARGE MAJORITY of all great game company, where the greatest art assets lie, where the big budgets are... you cannot come in with a super story and have a game built around that.

And you shouldnt. If i want a superstory i read a book. I want a game for, you know, playing. There is a game that seem to have a story nad a game then got built around it. Indigo Prophecy (or Fahrenheit as you folk know it). Thing is, while the story was really interesting to see, the gameplay was a godamn quicktime event. whole game.

Can anyone tell me what the story of the current industry juggernaut known as Minecraft is? Does anyone really care what the story of Minecraft is?

I care! I evne invented a story of being dropped into uninhabited island and having to survive to justify the lack of knowledge. Im also the kind of guy that loves cutscenes and watches more Movies thna play games though.

 

[Sarge034]

So a writer is saying the writing doesn't get enough attention? In other news programmer says not enough attention is being given to programing, art director is saying art is not given enough attention, music director says music is not given enough attention, ect ect.

While I can agree with her statements to a point, I think it might be that she need so write for different companies. Let's face it, Bioshock is as its' heart a shooter (and in my opinion had a damn fine story). The pacing will be directed by the firefights. It is inevitable. However, TellTale's The Walking Dead is an interactive point and click adventure that was all about the story. Hell, Spec Ops: The Line was a shooter with an intense story. If she truly has the writing skills she boasts then it should not be hard to link up with any company of HER choosing. You know, the companies that really value a good story... Just sayin...

 

[Ayay]

I am suprised it took her 10 years to figure out she cant write a story the way she wants, and not having the interactive gameplay get in the way.Dont get me wrong i like a good story in a game but not if it means QTE my way throu it.The prime example for me is The walking dead if it wasent for the great story i would have tossed that game after 10 min gameplay.But those games are very few.The games today follow the Action movie concept.If it makes money why try something new.

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I love this medium. If she doesn't, then don't let the door hit your ass on your way out lady.

Good luck writing your novel or whatever.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Oh for christ sake. They're games, can you really be so dense as to be surprised when the GAMEplay of the GAME take more precedence over story?

And why are we so concerned about being compared to other media? Games have different rules to films and books, and by trying to make games more like them, you cheapen the medium.

If this is the kind of person we have writing games, I'm glad she's gone.

This, because...

Speaking with Gameological, she explained that game stories are so often an afterthought, providing only enough effort to keep the player moving from one level to the next.

and I'm saying this as a writer myself, but the bolded part is all videogames really need as far as story goes.

You know the thing about the all time classic games? Games like Mario and Tetris? Or Pac Man? Even more recent titles like Angry Birds? They have squat for storytelling and yet they're the biggest names in the industry.

Does anyone really care that much about the stories behind Halo, Gears of War, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, or others compared to what they're getting out of the gameplay? If the gameplay stayed the same, does anyone really think the number of players of each would change all that much based on how much more or less work was put into the story?

Can anyone tell me what the story of the current industry juggernaut known as Minecraft is? Does anyone really care what the story of Minecraft is?

Frankly, the story doesn't matter worth a hill of beans if you don't have a game worthy playing. THAT'S why story comes second to gameplay.

It's the exception and not the rule out of your examples but I play starcraft for its' story. It's the only reason I buy the sequels because I don't play online at all. Of course, if the gameplay was complete shit, I'm not sure I'd get through it.

Never played starcraft so I can't answer that one.

If FF13 had a good story I could have finished it, it doesn't so I couldn't. I found the gameplay alright and knew it became more complex later but I couldn't stomach the characters anymore to get there.

 

[MetalMagpie]

The phrase "be the change you want to see in the world" comes to mind when I read this article. If she wants to abandon ship and not be a contributor to paving the way for better storytelling in games then good riddance.

So... She admits she has the skills, but doesn't want to do the work to help make the medium better and wants to apply those skills elsewhere...

Pathetic.

She's arguing that - as a video game writer - she doesn't have enough control over the process to write the sort of stories she'd like to. And she's probably right. Video game writers don't get to sit down and write whatever story they feel passionate about. They have a brief and - more importantly - they have to make the story work around the desired gameplay.

So the only way she could "be the change you want to see in the world" is if she started her own video games company! That way, she would have far more creative control. But that's a huge thing to take on when all you really want to do is write stories.

It sounds like what she really wants to do is write novels (or maybe film/TV scripts), but is understandably hesitant about such a big career change. It's tough to make a living as a writer.

 

[JediMB]

Hopefully these talented writers will find a chance to work on indie or other "non-AAA" games, where their contributions might actually stand a chance of shaping the gameplay as much as the cutscenes.

I do miss games where violence wasn't your primary problem-solving tool.

 

[kyoodle]

That's a shame but rather than leaving wouldn't a developer that makes narrative driven, mechanically light games like Tell Tale or Quantic Dream be a better environment for her? Or even better join or form an indie studio so the story can be a part of the game's design from the beginning.
I know it's not as simple as walking in somewhere and asking for a job but someone must be looking for a decent writer.

 

[Lieju]

and I'm saying this as a writer myself, but the bolded part is all videogames really need as far as story goes.

You know the thing about the all time classic games? Games like Mario and Tetris? Or Pac Man? Even more recent titles like Angry Birds? They have squat for storytelling and yet they're the biggest names in the industry.

Does anyone really care that much about the stories behind Halo, Gears of War, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, or others compared to what they're getting out of the gameplay? If the gameplay stayed the same, does anyone really think the number of players of each would change all that much based on how much more or less work was put into the story?

Can anyone tell me what the story of the current industry juggernaut known as Minecraft is? Does anyone really care what the story of Minecraft is?

Frankly, the story doesn't matter worth a hill of beans if you don't have a game worthy playing. THAT'S why story comes second to gameplay.

I think you (and a lot of people in this thread) are confusing narrative with story delivered in cutscenes.

The gameplay should be a part of the narrative in a video-game.
It might be the only way to tell the story, even.

Throwing the player character alone and defenseless into the gameworld with no explanations or weapons IS narrative, for example. It tries to evoke emotions.

The problem is that games are still growing as a medium and trying to find ways to do this, and many games are restricted by a tacked-on story that's developed separately from gameplay and that tries to ape movies.

My favorite games aren't the ones that tell a story, but the ones that let me create my own.

Such as?

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

So... She admits she has the skills, but doesn't want to do the work to help make the medium better and wants to apply those skills elsewhere...

Pathetic.

You're assuming she has any meaningful say in the game's development. There's more to a great story for a video game than just the writing.