Bioshock Writer Fed Up With Industry
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Very true, an example of how a narrative for a video game must be different to that of any other medium. (Novels/Films, etc).HaraDaya said:
Examples:
-Halo is scripted and tells a story.
-Skyrim throws you into a world and allows you to create your own. Not with choices in a story, but with whether you choose that particular story.
I remember in skyrim when I fought in the battle of Whiterun with my Thane. Both in stormcloak armour because you might aswell look the part. The drawbridge was down and we were on our way inside before I realised she was no longer following me. She had been killed by an arrow, (probably a stray one considering that no one attacks a downed companion).
I quit the rebellion after that battle, went to the mage's college and majored in conjuration. Mostly in reanimating the dead... no sure why exactly. Something about losing a close companion and wishing that mortality wasn't permanent I guess.
That's my example of my own story created in a video game. (Granted I was playing Skyrim in that 'Hardcore' difficulty mode. You know, playing on Expert and abandoning your game if you ever die).
Aaaaand now I've forgotten what exactly I was talking about.
Tomb Raider has a lot of stuff happening in it. Characters, island backstory, character development, and then the actual stuff that happens.... not amazing..but not bad. Killing 300 people on the island in an extended corridor subtracts from that though.Mycroft Holmes said:
So a writer's response to bad writing is to leave the industry? That'll sure solve a lot.
Wonder what would happen if every drop in the sea realised how small it is and how little influence it has on the power of a wave, and evaporated out of disappointment.
But that said, I find it funny that the writer of a game where an archeology student unexpectedly develops weapons training holds that there should be reasons for shooting people. I can think of plenty of reasons Lara Croft shouldn't have been shooting people as easily as she did.
Wonder what would happen if every drop in the sea realised how small it is and how little influence it has on the power of a wave, and evaporated out of disappointment.
But that said, I find it funny that the writer of a game where an archeology student unexpectedly develops weapons training holds that there should be reasons for shooting people. I can think of plenty of reasons Lara Croft shouldn't have been shooting people as easily as she did.
She should write for RPGs. The content is slightly more "varied".
Even so, games can tolerate a certain amount of "absurdity". The trick is to properly focus the player's attention on the dramatic parts (which have to be kept straight) so they can close an eye with regards to the "nonsensical" parts.
Look at the JRPGs over the years. You go in to people's house and just walk out with their stuff. Enemies drop all sort of weird crap. There are random floating balls that contain items. Characters grow stronger by choose stuff from some kind of grid that exist heaven knows where.
Even so, games can tolerate a certain amount of "absurdity". The trick is to properly focus the player's attention on the dramatic parts (which have to be kept straight) so they can close an eye with regards to the "nonsensical" parts.
Look at the JRPGs over the years. You go in to people's house and just walk out with their stuff. Enemies drop all sort of weird crap. There are random floating balls that contain items. Characters grow stronger by choose stuff from some kind of grid that exist heaven knows where.
There is only so much one person can do. Games are a collaborative process, and she points out that writers are brought late into the project, after the genre, characters, art, setting and levels have already been decided upon by others. The writer is given very few decisions, and very little to work with. Other writers have reported similar frustrations. Even the likes of Ken levine still have to bow to producers, "market expectations", budgeting, franchise consistency etc. before they've even begun to pen a story for a game. I can appreciate a creative person wanting to get away from such a restrictive and poorly ordered process. In movies, they write the story before production starts.Corven said:
People have mentioned that she should be the change she wants to see but I think the point she's wanting to make is that game developers don't WANT good stories in their games because they treat them with less respect than the technical aspect of the cutscenes which are meant to deliver the story. She could rewrite Shakespeare with lasers and dinosaurs and it wouldn't matter unless the developers were willing to spend the time and money to work it into their game.
If you were a genius psychologist who took a job on the internet responding to tweets with other tweets, would you try to help people change their lives in 140 characters or would you move to a professional psychology clinic where your patient count is much lower but your impact is much more significant? Susan O'Connor is simply making that decision.
If you were a genius psychologist who took a job on the internet responding to tweets with other tweets, would you try to help people change their lives in 140 characters or would you move to a professional psychology clinic where your patient count is much lower but your impact is much more significant? Susan O'Connor is simply making that decision.
As both her and Rhianna Pratchett pointed out, a game writer's job is limited to providing a justification for why Lara is shooting things, not deciding whether she should be shooting things in the first place; those decisions get made long before they are hired. That's what frustrates them.MeChaNiZ3D said:
Considering the state the AAA industry is in right now can she expect any better from a shooter? She should get in with Telltale or work with indies like Dust An Eysian Tail. Or even better for her partner up with a good artist and musician and make a visual novel.
Completely missed the point.MeChaNiZ3D said:
If anything it's a writers response to having their writing limited or constricted by having to justify mainstream gaming mechanics (shooting everyone in the head with universal soldier precision)
Ermm exactly... it sounds like a game writer would want to write Tomb Raider in such a way where Lara wouldn't develop weapon training in 5 mins...but the gameplay portion of the team would make it so. Thus the writer is not satisfied with the end product as a whole and has no power to change it because gameplay takes precedent.
So as an individual, a writer (who wants to be proud of his/her work) is considering to move to a different industry where this will not happen
Don't worry I'm not that easily offended.Yosharian said:
My point is that there are some games out there with great stories, that I will never get to experience due to my sucking at those types of games (shooters and RTS-es come to mind). I barely managed to get through ME, and only because the story interested me. Every time I came upon another combat section my enjoyment of the game would drop a bit more, and if they happen to be "hard" they might even get me to give up the game completely.
There's still a game to be had with "just" the conversations/choices/exploration/scanning (ok, maybe drop that as well). It's a completely different type of game, I admit. And there's not nearly as big a market for those, so I'll keep slogging through the "game" bits to get to the parts I enjoy.
Note that I don't want the combat replaced by cutscenes, or even worse QTEs. I'd just enjoy it if (and I'll keep using ME for this) I could just send 3 other people of my crew to do the mission for me, "I'm sure Garrus, Tali and Mordin don't need me on this one, let them handle it." Never going to happen, but a man can dream
Get out of AAA games?
She's obviously a good writer, and would have no trouble finding work at a smaller studio which didn't just make shooters. So what's actually stopping her?
She's obviously a good writer, and would have no trouble finding work at a smaller studio which didn't just make shooters. So what's actually stopping her?
V
I think that Half Life 2 would be a really forgettable game with no story. Shooters with really strong stories, like Half Life, Bioshock, Mass Effect, FEAR would all be either terrible or boring as shit with a weak ass story tacked on to move the player from level to level. Also it's not just shooters. Zelda games, RPGs, Stealth games (Dishonored) are all things vastly improved with a strong story. A context-less romp around a dungeon may be fun but you would care after you're done.Grabehn said:
Wha? Bioshock was an oversimplified mess from mechanics to story she has no right to complain.....
Oh wait complaining about the medium....that's like complaining about comics not having a good story all the time. Its not the comics fault the writers are forced to write for one drooling demographic.
Oh wait complaining about the medium....that's like complaining about comics not having a good story all the time. Its not the comics fault the writers are forced to write for one drooling demographic.
That's not what she says.Desert Punk said:
She says she is grateful, and really proud of the stories she's produced for well renowned titles. She did however say that it just wasn't enough for her, and while she's confident that games will get to that spot, it won't really be in the near future.
She has a right to pursue her own happiness, and if she's becoming more and more dissatisfied with her stories-despite how top notch she is, then what is wrong with trying something else to get the maximum out of your talent?
She is not obligated to the game community. She is obligated to herself.
Her life, her talent, her choices.
If videogames aren't doing it for her at the moment, then why should she stick around becoming increasingly upset and dissatisfied for your benefit?
Yeah, if she leaves, she just shoots her own argument in the foot. I get that she is frustrated and tired but people have to push on sometimes.Bat Vader said:
My suggestion, focus your talents on games that are more story driven: point n' click, slower paced games, japanese style rpgs. It's a matter of where you apply the work
Complaining the writers aren't in charge of game production is akin to complaining that movie makers aren't in charge of game production.
Anyone remember Kingdom's of Amalur: Reckoning? Written by R.A. Salvatore. Good game; terrible story... at least for the medium. I don't think a well-written story can translate well into a game, because it game isn't just "read".
It also sounds like she's complaining about working on the wrong types of games. "Oh, I'm so upset because stories in FPS games are treated as optional. Boo hoo hoo. What? Point-and-click adventure games? RPGS? What are those?" So she's had some bad experiences in the AAA field and wants to blame gaming as a whole? She didn't even try to go into the independent field before writing gaming off as having less depth than other forms of entertainment. Well she can just kiss my gigantic, chair-shaped, butt. She can also go ahead and quit because the last thing we need is that kind of attitude.
Anyone remember Kingdom's of Amalur: Reckoning? Written by R.A. Salvatore. Good game; terrible story... at least for the medium. I don't think a well-written story can translate well into a game, because it game isn't just "read".
It also sounds like she's complaining about working on the wrong types of games. "Oh, I'm so upset because stories in FPS games are treated as optional. Boo hoo hoo. What? Point-and-click adventure games? RPGS? What are those?" So she's had some bad experiences in the AAA field and wants to blame gaming as a whole? She didn't even try to go into the independent field before writing gaming off as having less depth than other forms of entertainment. Well she can just kiss my gigantic, chair-shaped, butt. She can also go ahead and quit because the last thing we need is that kind of attitude.
Well, it's mostly because games over the last few years have largely gone the direction of sameness in the AAA industry where the authors are working. Just about all the major AAA games either involve massively killing enemies or sports, and sports games don't need a story. Adventure and strategy games have the potential for good stories while avoiding the whole mass killing thing that has been adopted. Kind of ironic that the anti-violence advocates actually pointed out a major flaw in the trend of video games over the past few years and everyone kept saying they were crazy.