"Bioshock".... yet another zippy rant.

[ZippyDSMlee]

I agree. Bioshock has a lot of great things and story 2 it. Do tone it down please.

And would you also please tone down your use of numbers in place of words?

Think of it, if Bioshock was as bad of a game as you make it out to be, it wouldn't have the following it does from dedicated gamers and reviewers alike.

Sure, it may not be the best game ever, but it most certainly isn't a travesty. There have been far worse games in history, particularly from the Phillips CDi.

Look at how well Twilight and cod piece 4.5(mw2) is doing... popularity>qaulity my friend, popularity>qaulity.

Alright, so I guess that since games like Psychonauts/Okami/Shadow of the Colossus/Bioshock have a devoted fanbase, that means they're rubbish? Might I remind you of how popular Ocarina of Time is, or perhaps the original star wars trilogy? Bioshock may not be the greatest game out there, but at least it dares to do things different, a trait that seems to be lacking in today's industry.

Edit: And you're taking digs at Fallout 3 and Dragon Age too? Forgive me, but it seems like you don't truly appreciate game immersion for what it is.

Thats all well and fine that BS has fans but its watering down the industry and that I can not stand.... they have done nothing differently they took a design aesthetic from SS2 or dues ex and raped it/dumbed it down.... they are doing what everyone else is doing..... its not even on the same levels as the other games mentioned....

FO3 is as much as a wreck as BS better level design yes,better dailog yes....enough equipment,skill pacing/balance/levels to make it to 20 hours without getting bored....not so much.... well the DLC helped with the caps but its still a joke balance/equipment wise....

DA..... well.... spells need to be overhauled 2ndary classes are implamented poorly you can't enhance bow or poison them while a great game or at least a good game (tatics has bugs left in it still) its missing just enough stuff for me to call it half a game.


I hate modern game design, its really shallow game play polish and finish work is put off to make it more pretty..... or dumped down...... sorry it focuses on everything but what makes a game a game.....

 

[Viggo]

I don't like the first impression you give Zippy, you make me want to rage D:<

Bioshock had fine shooting mechanics, comparable to FEAR 2. Better, IMO.

What's wrong with the AI? Like you said, they'd heal themselves and they'd run at you if they saw you... What more do you want/need?

I hope you get stuck in an alternate reality where you are forced to play Halo, Gears of War and Crysis all day, until you realize how good Bioshock is.

 

[spartan773]

Bioshock is not a game its an experience the shooter elements are bad but its not meant to be seen as a FPS as the art deco and design elements make it a wondrous experience.

The sad thing is some people believe that, that somehow an interactive movies "experience" is more important than the sum of its parts...namely game mechanics and anything else as if their mind is turned off and the spooky scripted horror elements surprise and entertain them....oooooo shiny.......... er what...where was I....er...

Ah yes I am so tired of the "Like the experience of" with tone of a IQ depraved rodent(on very very bad days) when people gush about Bioshock or any other under developed modern game..... and yes I looking at you as well Fo3.......

Anyway.... on with my main rant.... (warning block o'text imminent)

I am sorry but dark messiah was far more engrossing due to its advanced game mechanics and AI(story/dailog is much worse than than BS's then again BS's is more sound bites and short hand than full B movie dailog that's offered in most shooter class games.....) BS is well...... a shallow art deco inspired action title that is just....... lacking..............the game it's unfinished and incomplete and under developed when it ever comes out of beta and they fix the lack of a death mechanic,items every f r a k k'i n where on all difficulty settings, wonky weapon balances, retarded AI that if it where not for the "water" and "health" scripts they'd be as bad as Jericho's "see it kill it before it dies" AI ...its not just a lousy shooter but a poorly made game out side of the art design and modlei...er... no the modeling sucks too due to the limits of the console focused 30 FPS cap which twitch's the frame rate randomly on some of the models.........(sigh if they only released a SDK it could have been the best thing ever.........sigh)

Really to gaming its a travesty like the new star war eps are to sci fi films in general and star wars in particular. Sure its popular...but so is twilight and a bunch of other great for the genre they were trying to aim at but to me BS is on the same level as Alpha Prime,Nercovision,Cryostaisis and even (god I can't believe I am saying this) Damnation.... and ya know.... Alpha Prime,Nercovision are more fun........ and Cryostaisis is more engrossing....


PS:yes...I been holding it back till I ran into to many people with the lights off while someone was home.....

how is bioshock unfinished and incomplete?
are you sure you were playing, or even played bioshock?
and do tone it down with the elipses. for god's sake i don't even abuse them that much.

Do you really want me to go through an itemized list? I can, lets see main topics to the list will be combat,weapon balances,mod implementation,level design, AI,plasmids ,graphical glitches,PC mouse issues,Dailog,Item pacing.

Basically the over all implementation over everything together makes it feel unfinished,same with Dragon age and Fallout 3.... but at least dragon age was worth buying..... .

Combat, so you're basically ripping on it for being a shooter, and as such, has pistols, shotguns, machine guns, heavier weapons and a melee weapon?

weapon balances? why weapon balances? i felt they implemented it pretty realistically, because recoil's a *****.

mod implementation? you mean the tonics and weapon upgrades? the tonics play into the ADAM gathering and upgrading in several ways to test out ways you want to play. the weapon mods upgrade the weapons and fit into the "art deco steampunk" style.

level design? it's amazing. going into the bathesphere and seeing the entire underwater metropolis like a 1940's version of Atlantis and the different parts of Rapture fit in to support a city on the ocean bed.

AI... it was a bit weak but at least tough.

Plasmids, once again, if you picked up Audio logs throughout the game, it explains ADAM and the plasmids, also giving a new ability for shooters instead of firing away with a gun.

Graphical Glitches: that depends on the hardware you play it on, because i played the ps3 version and didn't experience this at all.

PC mouse.... hell that's why there's the "OPTIONS" menu to set it to your liking.

Dialog. it was well-preformed. the Splicers idle, searching, interacting, and fighting talk was well implemented and shows the degrade that ADAM and splicing can do to you. also showing on mental illness, which is a growing fear to these days.

Item placing: i will agree with you on that. too much ammo, EVE hypos, first aid kits and money lying around, but that's a minor flaw.

and Unfinished? What makes you think it's unfinished? it was a well-designed game. Fallout 3 was a good game. dragon age looks like a good game... and earlier you mentioned Modern Warfare 2 to other Escapists and you say that it's a trend? OK, MW2's story was butchered short but was a good engrossing story from several different viewpoints of soldiers.

Twilight.... Eh. i hate it. it's not worth a mention... besides this.

 

[vivadelkitty]

*snip*

So you would prefer terrible dialogue, and controls along the line of "press b to shoot, don't press b to not shoot" (Croshaw, review of House of the Dead)? I honestly think that gaming should be about telling a narrative. If you don't LIKE the narrative, play games without one. Hell, I've even seen a flash game or five that manages to tell a good story. Gaming is evolving, we shouldn't be regressing. And as to your comment about Bioshock 'ripping off' System Shock 2, they were both made by Irrational Games, Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor to SS2.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Wait...are you comparing Bioshock to Dark Messiah: Might and Magic?
If so yea...maybe you're more of a niche gamer, because that received mostly average reviews and was in general passed on by most people. Hell Gamespot nominated the console version Flat-Out Worst Game in its 2008 video game awards. And you also take a shot at Fallout 3? Yea...

Well half of the bad to average set gets glorious reviews depending on how well the rag is fed....

No death system? Damage and death is a choice of a developer. You're criticizing the system where your character dies and is regenerated by the local Vita-Chamber? Which they actually bother to address in the plot.

You have a money system...guess what could at least tried to be used to balance out that issue?

Why bother to complain when other games let you takes enough bullets to kill a herd of cattle, and 3 seconds behind cover makes you good as new? Hell other games have done more ridiculous death systems, for example Fable 2, you fall over and pop back up after losing a tiny sliver of exp. WoW has you walk back to your corpse as a ghost. One could argue that having a permanent death in a game where you have to see a load game screen can pull you out of the game, whereas having a legit excuse to keep going without it keeps atmosphere.

never played SS2 or most any FPS/FP RPG eh?
The mechanic was under utilized you can glaze it over and say that meant it to really be like that because of the plot...but I see it as a skipped over sight they tried to cover up with BS....

Also calling it incomplete and unfinished is an over exaggeration. If you truly think this then you really have to go out and play the numerous amounts of crap that is available on the market that makes Bioshock look like it was crafted meticulously over a hundred decades.

I dunno all the under utilized stuff in it makes it seem pretty damn unfinished to me.... of course you do not see it not many care about how gaming gets dumbed down these days they just eat it up and move on.....

Not the best but by no means is it bad or the worst.

I'll give you that its not a bad game (yes I said that) its just I just get to worked up over what we have lost for it...... for gaming to be popular it has to be shallower to make a greater impact upon the public......and this tears me to my core.....

 

[Heathrow]

Same idiot....er.... person

The AI made Dark Messiah I loved dcking around with it, same for FEAR, also I got use to the combat in DM 30% or so extra on the reach of what you see is the collision detection on the weapon. it took me an hour of staying in the same place and getting use to all the main weapon types loved the staff and daggers the most, kicking and blocking helped as well.

level design DM and BS are the same some secrets/nooks but DM is not a sandbox game, a shame to the rope bow would have made it evil. Scripts/dailog typical FPS/shooter/low budget action game level.At least it had a decent equipment/item system..... What really put me over the edge with BS is the AI they just did not put any effort into it other than the water/heal scripts......

Crazy, small world.

The Kicking in DM was an easy way to bypass combat altogether especially since there were a rather large number of spikey grates and fires conveniently placed wherever you had to fight someone.

I would agree the AI was probably the most lacking feature in Bioshock but at least there were lots of interesting ways to kill the idiots. Although I did always wish the ice Plasmid made slick patches on the floor to trip up the enemies à la Dark Messiah.

 

[Zeromaeus]

I will say my piece and leave (probably). Oh, and I abuse ellipses as well so don't mention it.

BioShock, for me, was a fascinating game. The story was engaging, the level design was interesting, the main characters were well developed, the FPS elements were ... well they were there and they worked. To be honest, I wasn't playing it because it was an FPS. It was Halloween. I was the one of the few people awake at a Halloween party. I wanted something with a dark atmosphere to tie the night together. That's what I got. I may not have been on the edge of my seat the entire time, especially on the last couple rounds of Bouncers, but it had its draw. I found myself wanting to know what happened later, wanting to take pictures of all those damned splicers (or whatever they're called). I wanted to see it through. I did. Took six hours and I cleared it, on normal difficulty, with the good ending. I enjoy this kind of game. For some games, the action is the game. That's ok. Those are fun. For some games, the action comes second. That's ok too. The only qualm I had about the game, and this isn't too serious mind you, but I thought after the scene with Andrew Ryan, the story presentation felt rushed, which, in a way, made me rush (which I believe is the reason I didn't find the artist guy's room (I didn't kill him)). This game obviously wasn't for you, for whatever reason. I liked it. Which brings me to my next point. Uh... why did you make this thread?

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

*snip*

So you would prefer terrible dialogue, and controls along the line of "press b to shoot, don't press b to not shoot" (Croshaw, review of House of the Dead)? I honestly think that gaming should be about telling a narrative. If you don't LIKE the narrative, play games without one. Hell, I've even seen a flash game or five that manages to tell a good story. Gaming is evolving, we shouldn't be regressing. And as to your comment about Bioshock 'ripping off' System Shock 2, they were both made by Irrational Games, Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor to SS2.

If you want it to be told a narrative...go watch a Gdamn film, I want rich fun gameplay I can interact with and be enthralled by, most modern games try to be more indie film project than a frakking game..........

 

[wordsmith]

dark messiah was far more engrossing due to its advanced game mechanics

For everything else you may have written, I'm gonna have to call you on this one.

Advanced game mechanics? You mean the "fuck you" button that was dressed up as a kick button? I'll admit, kicking people down stairs WAS fun for a bit, but when your combat choices are either 1 hit kick kill or 19 hit sword fight, it gets old fast. Not to mention that the game is bugged to hell and back, my copy bugged out at the point where you get stripped of all your weapons and given that demon power, but an AI cue was missed and there's a guy on the other side of the door who won't unlock the door so I can't advance (and yes, I looked the guide up and I was supposed to do as I did, then go through the door). Wierdly, the same can't be said for bioshock...

 

[vivadelkitty]

*snip*

So you would prefer terrible dialogue, and controls along the line of "press b to shoot, don't press b to not shoot" (Croshaw, review of House of the Dead)? I honestly think that gaming should be about telling a narrative. If you don't LIKE the narrative, play games without one. Hell, I've even seen a flash game or five that manages to tell a good story. Gaming is evolving, we shouldn't be regressing. And as to your comment about Bioshock 'ripping off' System Shock 2, they were both made by Irrational Games, Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor to SS2.

If you want it to be told a narrative...go watch a Gdamn film, I want rich fun gameplay I can interact with and be enthralled by, most modern games try to be more indie film project than a frakking game..........

You're dodging the point. Games should be able to incorporate both, not just one or the other, and I feel that Bioshock accomplishes this. Again, we need to progress with the medium, not stay locked in the rigid gameplay box.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Same idiot....er.... person

The AI made Dark Messiah I loved dcking around with it, same for FEAR, also I got use to the combat in DM 30% or so extra on the reach of what you see is the collision detection on the weapon. it took me an hour of staying in the same place and getting use to all the main weapon types loved the staff and daggers the most, kicking and blocking helped as well.

level design DM and BS are the same some secrets/nooks but DM is not a sandbox game, a shame to the rope bow would have made it evil. Scripts/dailog typical FPS/shooter/low budget action game level.At least it had a decent equipment/item system..... What really put me over the edge with BS is the AI they just did not put any effort into it other than the water/heal scripts......

Crazy, small world.

The Kicking in DM was an easy way to bypass combat altogether especially since there were a rather large number of spikey grates and fires conveniently placed wherever you had to fight someone.

I would agree the AI was probably the most lacking feature in Bioshock but at least there were lots of interesting ways to kill the idiots. Although I did always wish the ice Plasmid made slick patches on the floor to trip up the enemies à la Dark Messiah.

I is every on teh netz

All BS needed to be prefect AI that could be distracted and knew what sound was, more physics tricks(lighting goes down watery stairs,ice freeze water,ect,ect,ect),little deeper more vertical level design,refine aiming more,death mechanic uses money, you can hold more money via upgrades,wepon mods stacked and could be swapped around and removed, balance weapons/plasmids a bit more,dailog bits a bit longer less sound bite feeling and on normal and above difficulty levels you get 50% less items laying around....its not hard to make BS the best thing ever.... but as it is it feels like a rushed to market lulz fest..... or a SDK......

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I will say my piece and leave (probably). Oh, and I abuse ellipses as well so don't mention it.

BioShock, for me, was a fascinating game. The story was engaging, the level design was interesting, the main characters were well developed, the FPS elements were ... well they were there and they worked. To be honest, I wasn't playing it because it was an FPS. It was Halloween. I was the one of the few people awake at a Halloween party. I wanted something with a dark atmosphere to tie the night together. That's what I got. I may not have been on the edge of my seat the entire time, especially on the last couple rounds of Bouncers, but it had its draw. I found myself wanting to know what happened later, wanting to take pictures of all those damned splicers (or whatever they're called). I wanted to see it through. I did. Took six hours and I cleared it, on normal difficulty, with the good ending. I enjoy this kind of game. For some games, the action is the game. That's ok. Those are fun. For some games, the action comes second. That's ok too. The only qualm I had about the game, and this isn't too serious mind you, but I thought after the scene with Andrew Ryan, the story presentation felt rushed, which, in a way, made me rush (which I believe is the reason I didn't find the artist guy's room (I didn't kill him)). This game obviously wasn't for you, for whatever reason. I liked it. Which brings me to my next point. Uh... why did you make this thread?

Simply the game could have been ALOT better........
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.173063.4824357

 

[Zeromaeus]

Same idiot....er.... person

The AI made Dark Messiah I loved dcking around with it, same for FEAR, also I got use to the combat in DM 30% or so extra on the reach of what you see is the collision detection on the weapon. it took me an hour of staying in the same place and getting use to all the main weapon types loved the staff and daggers the most, kicking and blocking helped as well.

level design DM and BS are the same some secrets/nooks but DM is not a sandbox game, a shame to the rope bow would have made it evil. Scripts/dailog typical FPS/shooter/low budget action game level.At least it had a decent equipment/item system..... What really put me over the edge with BS is the AI they just did not put any effort into it other than the water/heal scripts......

Crazy, small world.

The Kicking in DM was an easy way to bypass combat altogether especially since there were a rather large number of spikey grates and fires conveniently placed wherever you had to fight someone.

I would agree the AI was probably the most lacking feature in Bioshock but at least there were lots of interesting ways to kill the idiots. Although I did always wish the ice Plasmid made slick patches on the floor to trip up the enemies à la Dark Messiah.

I is every on teh netz

All BS needed to be prefect AI that could be distracted and knew what sound was, more physics tricks(lighting goes down watery stairs,ice freeze water,ect,ect,ect),little deeper more vertical level design,refine aiming more, balance weapons/plasmids a bit more,dailog bits a bit longer less sound bite feeling and on normal and above difficulty levels you get 50% less items laying around....its not hard to make BS the best thing ever.... but as it is it feels like a rushed to market lulz fest..... or a SDK......

Ok, ok, uh... what exactly was wrong with the weapons. I mean, I only played through the game once, but I played and upgraded every single one of those things and didn't have any problems.

 

[SonicKoala]

Well, apart from raping the english language, your rant feels incredibly disjointed and vague.... and I disagree with everything you said. How is the game "incomplete"? And a "travesty"? Really?

And secondly, stop with your stupid "Oh, well Twilight is popular, that means everything else that is popular is shit" thing. It makes no sense at all, and it's a horrible argument which is unable to stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Sometimes things are popular because they're GOOD.

 

[Caimekaze]

If you want it to be told a narrative...go watch a Gdamn film, I want rich fun gameplay I can interact with and be enthralled by, most modern games try to be more indie film project than a frakking game..........

... So a ... Game is... only what you... say it..... is?

Some people play games for the plot, the aesthetic, the experience.

I personally found the gameplay of Bioshock to be quite fun. I mainly played with my wrench, so it was rather grueling pre-Wrench Monkey upgrade and then rewarding afterwards. Finding a nice balance of plasmids, being forced to swap guns when you've pumped all your shotgun shells into a Big Daddy and he's still trying to give you a new hole and the feeling of being underpowered against these superhuman freaks is just satisfying to me. I also adored the research system.

Bioshock was the spiritual successor of System Shock 2, albeit designed in a more bio/steampunk manner to System Shock's cyberbunk. So of course there will be similarities.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

*snip*

So you would prefer terrible dialogue, and controls along the line of "press b to shoot, don't press b to not shoot" (Croshaw, review of House of the Dead)? I honestly think that gaming should be about telling a narrative. If you don't LIKE the narrative, play games without one. Hell, I've even seen a flash game or five that manages to tell a good story. Gaming is evolving, we shouldn't be regressing. And as to your comment about Bioshock 'ripping off' System Shock 2, they were both made by Irrational Games, Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor to SS2.

If you want it to be told a narrative...go watch a Gdamn film, I want rich fun gameplay I can interact with and be enthralled by, most modern games try to be more indie film project than a frakking game..........

You're dodging the point. Games should be able to incorporate both, not just one or the other, and I feel that Bioshock accomplishes this. Again, we need to progress with the medium, not stay locked in the rigid gameplay box.

I am not dodging the point I am taking it dead on, stories have always been 2ndary to gamepaly and mechanics but in the last 10ish years they have been slowly focusing more and more on contrived story or character elements or other plot/story gibberish or graphics gameplay what makes a game a game and puts it above others the fulcrum upon which and how you interact with it has been cast aside for fluff...... I'll take Doom 1-2 a simple "kill it dead before it dies" shooter with very above average level layout than Doom 3,Quake 4,Jericho all contrived corridor shooters with flashy graphics and an arbitrary story......... SS2,Dues ex games like these manage to do it all with reasonable things they fail at...BS fails at too much it just pushes all my whine,hate and lulz buttons ><

Truthfully FO3 dose as well..... DA/ME is more a minor rant still not played the FPS known as ME2 yet enough to hate on it yet......

 

[Heathrow]

Ok, ok, uh... what exactly was wrong with the weapons. I mean, I only played through the game once, but I played and upgraded every single one of those things and didn't have any problems.

I believe he's referring to the console style "lax aim" target reticules. I'm not a huge fan of them either but then Tommy Guns aren't particularly well known for their accuracy so, yeah...

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I don't like the first impression you give Zippy, you make me want to rage D:<

Bioshock had fine shooting mechanics, comparable to FEAR 2. Better, IMO.

What's wrong with the AI? Like you said, they'd heal themselves and they'd run at you if they saw you... What more do you want/need?

I hope you get stuck in an alternate reality where you are forced to play Halo, Gears of War and Crysis all day, until you realize how good Bioshock is.

AI is deaf half the time it will only act on begin damages or seeing you, the rest of the time its on a radius setting. The water and health scripts are cute but compare it to Fear,MGS,DM and other games that have human like AI that can be distracted by tossing a rock soemwhere or they chase your Shadow but not you...


I liked halo 1(its AI is better than BS's too...but then so is H2 and 3....kinda....), 2 and 3 are so watered down it dose the brand a disservice..... gears is a watered down lulz fest. Cryisis was weak..... weaker than FC2...but not by much....FC1 is better than both.....

I have played alot of games so much better than BS that I can not see BS in a good light its just as bad as gears from the everything I have played perceptive of an old fart LOL.

 

[Zeromaeus]

Ok, ok, uh... what exactly was wrong with the weapons. I mean, I only played through the game once, but I played and upgraded every single one of those things and didn't have any problems.

I believe he's referring to the console style "lax aim" target reticules. I'm not a huge fan of them either but then Tommy Guns aren't particularly well known for their accuracy so, yeah...

Uh... so? Does that really matter? I was able to shoot things and make them dead-ified pretty well. Isn't that the point. Besides, the hard things to kill were huge targets.

 

[vivadelkitty]

*snip*

So you would prefer terrible dialogue, and controls along the line of "press b to shoot, don't press b to not shoot" (Croshaw, review of House of the Dead)? I honestly think that gaming should be about telling a narrative. If you don't LIKE the narrative, play games without one. Hell, I've even seen a flash game or five that manages to tell a good story. Gaming is evolving, we shouldn't be regressing. And as to your comment about Bioshock 'ripping off' System Shock 2, they were both made by Irrational Games, Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor to SS2.

If you want it to be told a narrative...go watch a Gdamn film, I want rich fun gameplay I can interact with and be enthralled by, most modern games try to be more indie film project than a frakking game..........

You're dodging the point. Games should be able to incorporate both, not just one or the other, and I feel that Bioshock accomplishes this. Again, we need to progress with the medium, not stay locked in the rigid gameplay box.

I am not dodging the point I am taking it dead on, stories have always been 2ndary to gamepaly and mechanics but in the last 10ish years they have been slowly focusing more and more on contrived story or character elements or other plot/story gibberish or graphics gameplay what makes a game a game and puts it above others the fulcrum upon which and how you interact with it has been cast aside for fluff...... I'll take Doom 1-2 a simple "kill it dead before it dies" shooter with very above average level layout than Doom 3,Quake 4,Jericho all contrived corridor shooters with flashy graphics and an arbitrary story......... SS2,Dues ex games like these manage to do it all with reasonable things they fail at...BS fails at too much it just pushes all my whine,hate and lulz buttons ><

Truthfully FO3 dose as well..... DA/ME is more a minor rant still not played the FPS known as ME2 yet enough to hate on it yet......

And yet you've failed to address my points about regression in gaming, but at this point, I feel like I'm teaching existentialism to my cat. You won't listen to anything I have to say, it seems you only created this thread with the purpose of forcing your opinion onto us, with no leeway for other ideas.