BioWare Co-Founder: RPGs Are Becoming "Less Relevant"

[mireko]

I predict a calm and rational discussion.

Anyway, this is a shame. He certainly has a point, at least when it comes to the rocket fuel popularization of RPG elements and blurring of genre distinctions. What would suck would be if this means BioWare intends to go even further away from the classic RPG model. Are there any tactical party-based WRPG devs left?

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

It isn't that RPGs are becoming less relevant, it is that every other genre is incorporating traditional RPG elements. Character customization and progression, discreet power sets (classes), quests for reward, epic storyline, multiple choice mission hubs, progression based sequencing, etc etc etc are all par for the course now. Games that DON'T incorporate these elements are considered primitive and boring.

Yahtzee's article was really good at describing the problem the RPG definition. If you look at it EVERY game is a role playing game because the player is executing the role of the game protagonist.

There needs to be checklist of RPG features but that is awkward to talk about.
[ol]
[li]continuous character progression
[ul][li]attacks do more damage later in the game than earlier[/li][/ul][/li]
[li]character customization affects gameplay
[ul][li]I can upgrade my sword to swing 20% faster or hit 2 enemies every swing but not both[/li][/ul][/li]
[li]player chooses order of missions and exploration
[ul][li]I can go to cutsman's level or elecman's level[/li][/ul][/li]
[li]classes with discreet power sets
[ul][li]rogues stealth, wizards shoot fireballs, warriors wear heavy armor[/li][/ul][/li]
[li]quests with rewards including story progression
[ul][li]I clear the rats out of the insane computer and he will tell me which vault my father was looking for[/li][/ul][/li]
[li]player choices affect story
[ul][li]if a player kills the dragon he can make magic armor from its scales, if he spares the dragon it will protect the town from the bandits while the player is away[/li][/ul][/li]
[li]previously locked areas of the game are available after progression
[ul][li]samus can't explore door behind the high ledge until she gets the high jump boots[/li][/ul][/li]
[/ol]

All of these are "RPG" elements and they all exist in various forms in different games since the beginning.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I don't see much discussion value about the actual statement here. Unless we're going to derail this slightly into a ME3 based thread?

Or am i missing a so glaringly obvious point that must be discussed? The "RPG's Are Less Relevent Lament Thread" perhaps?

 

[kouriichi]

To be honest, i find this kinda backwards. Theyre more important then ever.
Especially TEH L00TZ! I think a good inventory management and lots of special drops can only make a game better.
While it can be tedious to shuffle through hundreds of items you pick up, completely removing this like they did in ME2 just kinda removes some of the fun from the game. Its why i thought Borderlands was so good!

"THIS GUN IS F*CKING BEAST!" *10x zoom on a shotgun that holds 1 shell, spreads like a hooker on a date will bill gates, and kicks like a mule that got into a bottle of steroids*

While yes, all the useless loot gets in the way, it makes finding that amazing drop all the better. And nothing says RPG like good loot drops and managing your weaponry.

 

[Bebus]

I agree, but man that was badly worded.

To me, RPG means slow gameplay, lots of text and an inventory you need a GPS to navigate. That is becoming less relevant. Bioware are doing great things by trying to merge the best parts of RPGs - great characters, choice and customisation, with other genres like 3rd person shooters and hack 'n' slashes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not but I'd rather they kept trying than pumping out the same game every year...

They should split from EA and focus on pushing the boundaries of the medium, not pushing their sales figures to satisfy a company so evil it makes the Reapers look like kittens.

 

[McMullen]

BioWare has gotten so wrapped up in how to appeal to mass audiences that they forgot what makes RPGs good.

There was a time when developers made games that appealed to themselves and anyone else who'd like it. And anyone who didn't like it just wasn't part of the audience. They made games more for themselves.

Now it is just "How to we appeal to "

It's less about games and more about marketing.

That's the trajectory of most successful corporate life cycles. Eventually they have to abandon certain of their values and original goals to focus more on increasing shareholder value, especially at the large, rapidly growing ones, or ones that, like Bioware, have recently been purchased by larger companies.

That said, this Greg Zeschuk is not a good PR guy at all, and should be kept from speaking to the gaming press or the fans. Many people already suspected this was Bioware's attitude, so it didn't even need to be said. And it should have been said with more tact. Personally, I don't care, and I actually believe that he should be able to say that without worrying about negative reactions from the fans, but I've been on the internet long enough to know that in the current climate, his statement is PR poison.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued.

It's equally funny how Bioware are becoming less relevant since being ...what's the word?... assimilated by Electronic Arts.

Ah well, let's see how 'action oriented' they make ME3. The race to make Femshep into Samus 2 has already tainted it well.

 

[Woodsey]

Dragon Age: Origins was a throwback to their classic RPGs, smashed their own sales expectations, and I'm pretty sure faired better than DA2 (and if it didn't it fucking should have).

So, yeah. This was only 2 years ago, not exactly a long time ago.

They seem to be becoming so obsessed with replicating the success of Mass Effect 1 and 2 (and I compeltely agree with the direction Mass Effect 2 took, because it was right for that particular series) as well as trying to apply to every single person, that they're just losing why people liked them so much in the first place.

Personally I think (and hope) that DA2 was just a slip-up, but this is worrying coming from the studio head.

I am getting really bored of developers thinking they should make their games for everyone. Make the game, and those who do like it will play it, those who don't like it won't.

And don't make games where they're simplified with the sole purpose of gaining a wider audience. I'm no good at Total War (even though I'd like to play them more), so I don't fucking play them. I don't expect the developers to suddenly target me.

If I really had that much desire to play I'd fucking get up and put the onus on myself to learn, and not the expense of existing fans.

 

[Wrds]

Read as "RPGs don't make as much money."

 

[BreakfastMan]

EDIT: And of course, people are misinterpreting his words to mean something completely different and threatening. *sigh*

You sound surprised. It's become pretty obvious for awhile now that most commenters on the first few pages just read the title of the article then reply.

I know, I know. I had just hoped that we could approach this calm and rationally, for once. It looks like I was probably wrong.

Now, if you will excuse me, I am getting the smeg out of here before I sucked, kicking and screaming, into the fast approaching flame war.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Is this his way of telling us that the next Dragon Age is going to be an FPS?

 

[Hertzey]

I agree with many here, I see what he is saying. Many games are including RPG elements. Granted that does not mean that the story is well thought out or makes sense. Which is very annoying when you are a story based person. My D&D group continued a campaign after a 2 year break because the story line was so intense and engaging.

I look at the term "less relevant" as a Freudian slip. A very bad Freudian slip that may come back and bite him in the rear. We shall see.

 

[Seventh Actuality]

Wow, I'm sure nobody is going to hijack this sensible and even-handed comment for the sake of their unthinking backlash...

 

[viranimus]

It really feels as if he is saying "we like making shooters now, they are easier, so, every one must like shooters"

Honestly RPGs are not just about the story. Certainly it is a defining part of them, but the defining part is the char development (be it in story or out) and combat strategy of which Bioware has seemingly forgotten about.

I think if anything its not that RPGs are becoming irrelevant nearly as much as they are becoming so much more of an undertaking to make and as such developers dont want to take the time and effort to build a true RPG, so they interchange easier hybrid elements and call it a day. In essence they are becoming extinct

The funny thing is, people lambaste FFXIII for basically being more interactive film than actual game, when Mass effect is just as bad but in a different way. However, thankfully there are still some developers willing to put forth the effort to make an RPG Not the least of which is CDprojekt.

TL;DR Its more to the effect that true RPGs are not being made because they are too much for developers to make and the market has desired RPGs that its getting content with RPG elements rather than a true RPG as they almost not made any more.

 

[Athinira]

It's less about games and more about marketing.

Newsflash: It has ALWAYS been about marketing.

Back in the days 12-15 years ago, the market was just drastically different. Games were still a relatively new medium, and the medium had just reached the era where they could take the medium in a new direction (for example the transition from MIDI-based sounds to actual recorded sounds, voices and music, as well as the ability to include cutscenes, and 3D graphics had just been born), which meant that there was plenty of room for experimentation and niche-appeal.

Those times are over. Since internet access went widespread, everyone in general knows about almost every AAA title out there, all the details are being laid bare by previews and reviews that you can read all over the world as long as you have internet access, which has mainstreamed the market. The only people that are left with actual experimentation are Indie-developers with their (in many cases) original ideas, but their games are in pretty much all cases made on a low budget (and before someone mentions Portal 2, i will remind you that it's a sequel to a game that, just like indie games, was made on a low budget). Experimentation in indie-games pay off because they usually have a very low budget, but experimentation in big AAA titles just doesn't pay off.

BioWare hasn't changed much back from their Baldur's Gate-times. The world has changed.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Piss on the last few RPGs which are for soem reason drooled over as mainstays of RPGs then claim RPGs are meh......... thats like taking a sht and then stepping in it....

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

It's less about games and more about marketing.

Newsflash: It has ALWAYS been about marketing.

Back in the days 12-15 years ago, the market was just drastically different. Games were still a relatively new medium, and the medium had just reached the era where they could take the medium in a new direction (for example the transition from MIDI-based sounds to actual recorded sounds, voices and music, as well as the ability to include cutscenes, and 3D graphics had just been born), which meant that there was plenty of room for experimentation and niche-appeal.

Those times are over. Since internet access went widespread, everyone in general knows about almost every AAA title out there, all the details are being laid bare by previews and reviews that you can read all over the world as long as you have internet access, which has mainstreamed the market. The only people that are left with actual experimentation are Indie-developers with their (in many cases) original ideas, but their games are in pretty much all cases made on a low budget (and before someone mentions Portal 2, i will remind you that it's a sequel to a game that, just like indie games, was made on a low budget). Experimentation in indie-games pay off because they usually have a very low budget, but experimentation in big AAA titles just doesn't pay off.

BioWare hasn't changed much back from their Baldur's Gate-times. The world has changed.

Not really BG was a huge game KOTOR was dumbed down but charming they kept the dumbed down and lost the charming bit.

 

[bakan]

Is this his way of telling us that the next Dragon Age is going to be an FPS?

Dragon Age 3, play with 1 sword and 1 bow BUT you will be able to socket up to 5 gems per weapon!

Ok, now OT:

Well, it isn't really surprising as everyone suspected this already but as someone already said they seem to have forgotten, that going the 'old school' way with DA:O was pretty profitable (just forget the horrible expansion...).
The problem is they aren't able to shove out a game like DA:O every year or every 2 years, they need more time for a polished product.