BioWare Co-Founder: RPGs Are Becoming "Less Relevant"

[The.Bard]

If this means they want to eliminate all of the arcane bullshit and micromanaging in RPGs, Godspeed to them.

RPGs have been too bogged-down for too long. The only thing we should take note of is if things like character customization, character growth, and expanding abilities start to go in serious quantities.

Hear hear! I agree completely. I would love it if a lot of games went the Mass Effect 2 route. Rip out the inventory management and grinding that brings these games to their knees, and then glue on another genre. They don't all have to be Shooter/RPG hybrids like ME2. Maybe some strategy games, racing games, maybe even a few puzzle games could be amazing as a 50/50 RPG hybrid.

 

[Draitheryn]

Ive been playing RPGs over 20 years now, they have been my favourite genre since I can remember, and I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Rpg elements have been trending into almost every other genre imaginable, same with story and narrative. Most people are demanding something more action packed while still keeping the story and progression continuous, and IMO Bioware has been consistent on delivering that, however, not perfectly.

The last decade, and even before, has seen the emergence of platformer rpgs, beat 'em up rpgs, fps rpgs, top down shooter rpgs, flight sim rpgs, you name it. With the penetration of indie developers the old style rpgs arent going away any time soon, and bioware will still be making games such as Mass Effect and Dragon Age, and likely evolving beyond that even. So long as they always have a good story I'll be a customer.

At this time, however, I would very much like to see "rpgs" move away from fantasy and sci-fi. I love the genres but they are done to death. I'm still waiting for my MMOFPSRPG Steam-punk, survival-horror, zombie apocalypse.

 

[drivel]

BioWare has gotten so wrapped up in how to appeal to mass audiences that they forgot what makes RPGs good.

There was a time when developers made games that appealed to themselves and anyone else who'd like it. And anyone who didn't like it just wasn't part of the audience. They made games more for themselves.

Now it is just "How to we appeal to "

It's less about games and more about marketing.

That's the trajectory of most successful corporate life cycles. Eventually they have to abandon certain of their values and original goals to focus more on increasing shareholder value, especially at the large, rapidly growing ones, or ones that, like Bioware, have recently been purchased by larger companies.

That said, this Greg Zeschuk is not a good PR guy at all, and should be kept from speaking to the gaming press or the fans. Many people already suspected this was Bioware's attitude, so it didn't even need to be said. And it should have been said with more tact. Personally, I don't care, and I actually believe that he should be able to say that without worrying about negative reactions from the fans, but I've been on the internet long enough to know that in the current climate, his statement is PR poison.

But this is the attitude that leaves great niche games in the dust.

Not exactly. Those games are released by small indie dev studios and publishers.

The cost of development for a game like Mass Effect or a Bethesda Softworks Fallout game is tremendous. A publisher won't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to release a game that won't sell to a lot of people - people with differing tastes. So, studios can go back to making games appealing only to them and a certain set of people. We, as consumers, just need to be prepared to sacrifice our 40-hour epics and our high-end graphics, and less than horrible voice-acting, and stories told through in-game audio instead of a big block of text, etc., etc.

 

[D0WNT0WN]

A Guide to Pissing Off Your Core Demographic by Greg Zeschuk.

Firstly you start appealing to a mass audience focusing less on the niche group that you appealed to, do this two or three times and then you alienate your core audience by releasing a statement that says what we used to do is becoming less relavant.

 

[Inkidu]

Well, I've always argued that there is no such thing as a "Pure RPG" They don't exist, not really. They're just games with various elements of role-playing mixed in. Maybe that's why I don't get pissed at Bioware as much as most people.

Pure RPGs don't exist. The elements of RPGs are meant to represent growth. Growth is only one aspect of a good game. So, yeah. This idea of an "RPG" was never really relevant. :\

The last 4 or 5 bioware games are not RPGs tho they are watered down adventure style games focused on action over everything else. They are trying to change the meaning of the genre forgetting its easier to change genres............

None of Bioware's games have been RPGs. What people consider an RPG is just an adventure game where you growth as said adventurer is facilitated through stats and abilities. There is no RPG just RP elements. The degree is what gets most people pissy.

 

[Bostur]

Oh you are about great games? As opposed to all the companies devoted to making bad games maybe? It would have been more interesting to read about your visions of what you think a great game is.


If you go on making relevant WoW clones and CoD clones, I'll just stick to beautiful, deep and irrelevant games. Or you could try having some individual thoughts again, and make relevant innovation.

I don't know how accurate of an analogy this is, but imagine if every restaurant in the world - regardless of whether it's italian, mexican, french, or sushi - suddenly added fast food hamburgers w/ fries to the menu for $5. If you KNEW that no matter where you ate that you could get a greasy burger for $5, would you EVER find yourself craving a burger joint? I think most people wouldn't.

Right now all the Italian, Mexican and French restaurants only serve burgers, and I crave some pasta, or anything that isn't burger.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

*looks at Dragon Age: Origins sales*

*cocks eyebrow*

 

[Hashbrick]

I think it is irrelevant to say that a genre is becoming irrelevant. Look to the Eastern nation and they will show you just how irrelevant the RPG genre is. The western taste of things has always been different in the east. This is why there is a sub genre within the genre known as JRPG. Come on Bioware pull your head out of your ass you are not reinventing any genre you are just making a hybrid of shit that is popular in the east to apply to a mass audience. I'm sure the EA mentality is now a virus of Bioware.

 

[The Lugz]

forum bug, double post

 

[The Lugz]

A Guide to Pissing Off Your Core Demographic by Greg Zeschuk.

Firstly you start appealing to a mass audience focusing less on the niche group that you appealed to, do this two or three times and then you alienate your core audience by releasing a statement that says what we used to do is becoming less relavant.

here here.

honestly it's like bio-ware just announced 'were irrelevant, DERRRRP.'

but more rpg bloat? that's what your die-hard fans hate about the rpg's there currently are
i'm just very sceptical of this entire affair until i see the exact product they intend to market i'm just going to pretend this never happened.

 

[Kingsnake661]

The classic RPG is starting to get a little less relevent, mainly because so many of it's core machaincs are getting used in other game styles to the point that, they are hardly exculisively "RPG" tearitory anymore. And more and more games are adding "Story" to there games even. In a since, alot of games have mini RPGs in them, in a way now a days.

It isn't so much the fact RPG's are dieing out as much as they are assumaliting and being introduce into more and more game types then ever before. So, i think what Bioware is saying is, it's getting to the point where RPG elemets are getting so common, they'er more or less irrelevent, and you have to judge the game on it's story and fun factor, not nessessirly an RPG check list. And for one tend to agree. *shrug*

 

[themerrygambit]

I really like bioware's approach to RPGs now. I mean RPGs for years always had great progression when it came to getting experience and hunting for treasure/money so you could upgrade your character, but lets face it... The fighting has always sucked. You're sitting there taking "turns" to fight selecting different attack options from a menu and seeing if it had the right outcome.

To me that was always booooooooooooooring. I love the fact that Mass Effect and Dragon age 2 went away from that model to have real time fighting and strategies you have to employ in real time in the heat and stress of battle. That's far more realistic role playing if you ask me. You're actually being put IN the situation of the battle. Now Mass Effect 2 was really skimpy on the actual RPG elements such as experience, world exploration, treasure hunting and player customization... those things really can't be sacrificed in an RPG... that's what gives the player a sense of ownership of the character and a sense of freedom that they are roaming around a real time environment. That being said Bioware has stated that Mass Effect 3 is going to be bringing that back. So I for one am quite anxious to see what the third installment has to offer!

 

[Lonan]

He's completely right. RPG's are essentially a relic of the past. When video games first started, and there were only about 100 pixels, it was essentially a small technological step up from something like Dungeons and Dragons. The computer did the dice rolling, made a terrible graphical version of you and you're enemies, and the player would go around trying to collect items to make the fictional world seem bigger and more immersive. Everyone would have aspects of Dungeons and Dragons, such as numbers and stats, and items to improve their stats. There would be a text based story to guide you along, and that was considered fun three decades ago. It was a very primitive time.

Fast forward to the 21st century, and we now have realistic graphics, enemies that react when you shoot them, massive artistic environments and a huge emersion. It?s no longer necessary to keep scores and stats on pieces of paper. It?s no longer necessary to tediously search for items which completely interrupt the flow of an otherwise incredible experience (looking at you Mass Effect and Bioshock) because numbers in video games are practically dead. There?s no reason to put them on life support by introducing tedium, repetition, and annoyance into the players experience and calling it integral to gameplay. As Yahtzee said, when criticising the scanning part of Mass Effect 2, ?This is supposed to be an exciting space adventure! Commander Shepard should acquire resources by shooting them out of a monsters face, or by extracting them from the throats of alien hotties with his tongue.? When I pay for a game with my hard earned money, I don?t want it to throw a clipboard at me and call it fun. Clipboards and stats are for work. Video games are for fun.

As for plot being related to RPG's, I look for plot in videogames, and there are few games fun enough for me to play them if they don?t have a good plot. However, tediously upgrading items and counting stats is not at all necessary. Harry Potter didn?t spend half an hour repairing, selling, and upgrading at the vendor before defeating Lord Voldemort, Luke Skywalker didn?t run around Endor trying to collect items to defeat Darth Vader, and the Fellowship of the Ring didn?t have to look at an annoying item screen before battling to save Middle Earth. These are just annoying relics from a technologically inferior age. Let?s get rid of them so I don?t have to work when I want to have fun at the end of the day.

 

[Braedan]

so wait, their response to "Hey Bioware, Mass effect was good, but where did my RPG go?" is "Fuck you, RPGs aren't relevant?

Everything I hear about Bioware these days makes me want to buy their games less and less.

 

[koroem]

BioWare has gotten so wrapped up in how to appeal to mass audiences that they forgot what makes RPGs good.

There was a time when developers made games that appealed to themselves and anyone else who'd like it. And anyone who didn't like it just wasn't part of the audience. They made games more for themselves.

Now it is just "How to we appeal to "

It's less about games and more about marketing.

100% truth. Publishers are probably more to blame for this then the developers are though. However the real problem is the clowns who can't play a game for more than 10 minutes unless it is non-stop action with little to no story (COD GoW). They skip cutscenes and just want to shoot stuff.

It is a sad sad era of gaming. Remember when classic RPG's like Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger were some of the best in console gaming? Nowadays the ADD future of the world can't stand these types of games. Makes me sad. Stay classy though Bioware, can't wait to see how many RPG elements were kicked to the curb for ME3.

 

[Frotality]

finally a straight fucking answer from these guys....well if you judge relevance purely on sales, then sure, shooters get most of the sales these days....the simplest, safest genre is always the most "relevant" in any given medium. but when you consider that even CoD employs weapon upgrades, a leveling system, and equipment loadouts, its not as though there isnt a sizeable market for RPGS, its just that it only pays out enough money for 1 jewel-encrusted toilet instead of 2. hmm....what omnipresent industry behemoth could possibly be so unsatisfied with a jewel-encrusted toilet that they try to shift already successful series' towards larger demographics just to get another?

it makes you wond....oh wait, EA. yeah, its EA. its also a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy; of course RPGs arent going to sell when no one but japan and indie devs are making them.

 

[scorptatious]

I kind of have to agree. Now-a-days, pure RPG's aren't as profitable as games like shooters. Unless it's a game from a popular RPG series such as Final Fantasy anyway.

Either way though, I'm happy that I at least get games that mix different genres together. The Mass Effect series being a good example through combining Third Person shooting with RPG elements.

And again, I'm confident Bioware will make Mass Effect 3 a really good game despite having EA with them. And I wish people would stop freaking out about it. I kind of expect better from the Escapist community.

 

[Zakarath]

Bioware... I don't know who you are anymore.

Oh, that's right. You're the latest label that EA is going to run into the fucking ground.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Well, I've always argued that there is no such thing as a "Pure RPG" They don't exist, not really. They're just games with various elements of role-playing mixed in. Maybe that's why I don't get pissed at Bioware as much as most people.

Pure RPGs don't exist. The elements of RPGs are meant to represent growth. Growth is only one aspect of a good game. So, yeah. This idea of an "RPG" was never really relevant. :\

The last 4 or 5 bioware games are not RPGs tho they are watered down adventure style games focused on action over everything else. They are trying to change the meaning of the genre forgetting its easier to change genres............

None of Bioware's games have been RPGs. What people consider an RPG is just an adventure game where you growth as said adventurer is facilitated through stats and abilities. There is no RPG just RP elements. The degree is what gets most people pissy.

I dunno BG was a pure RPG and most "RPG's" made at the time were RPG's in what we think of as pure or traditional. The role playing aspect I think is what is misconstrued and that the depth of the mechanics equals pure or lite.

I really do not mind the lite RPGs its just when they come off as a pure RPG I get my ire up, DA was a joke the AI and scripts were broken, enchantments woefully under utilized sloppy skill system and yet they claimed it to be the best RPG ever...and worse yet they came out with a even more watered down sequel ....it just dose not end and my IRE grows.

Bioware and square are on my shit list for not knowing WTF they are doing, well other than doing less for more and putting out less content for more money.....

 

[TheDooD]

You know what the developers need in times like these? A good dose of egoism.
Give the developers the freedom to make whatever THEY want to, not the audience.

It is my belief that a game that is loved by its developer is much more enjoyable than a game solely made to appeal to as many as possible at once.

truth ^

IMO fuck the publisher, faceless stockholders and the people who didn't care about the game in the first place. A Developer should make solid game that they like, if the game is good to them it'll most likely end up good in other people's eyes. They shouldn't have to bend over backwards because a publisher want it out faster then the development should normally take. They shouldn't have to cut corners because stockholders want money yesterday. They shouldn't have to dumb down gameplay, streamline the story and overall make it much easier for those who never cared about the series in the first place to now decide they want to play it.