BioWare Could Move Away from Fantasy and Sci-Fi

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Ignatz_Zwakh

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A psychedelic 60's conspiracy-theory RPG. Complete with cyborg assassins from the future and weird Lovecraftian sex! Of course, there would also be deities condemned to wander the Earth and new-age anarchist's with absurd hair-cuts and even more absurd names. Can't forget about those!
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Xzi said:
because one of the things we want to do is really try and broaden our appeal, broaden our reach, sell more units, get more fans.
Well we all know what happened to DA2 when they started talking like this. FYI, Bioware, turning RPGs into action-adventure games does NOT broaden your appeal, it just alienates your base and gets a resounding meh from everyone else.

It's like this, nerds and geeks represent a solid audience that can bring in a pretty heavy profit.

The sheeple brought into the market nowadays however outnumber us by a substantial number. Sales to them, outperform sales to us. The basic attitude is one where the guys running the gaming industry figure they would rather give up a solid audience, for a potentially bigger audience, to make more money. There is no loyalty to consumers, and we're seeing that applies to the game industry. Right now, much like bands that "sell out we're seeing developers insisting they don't owe the users that made them what they are anything. All they care about is adding another wing to their giant castle made of money. We all hoped that things would be differant from an industry that for so many years said "hey, we're nerds and gamers just like you guys", but well... we are where we are. We're not the first group of consumers to get stabbed in the back by those we trusted and supported.

With simple games like "Farmville" showing what an appeal to a casual audience can mean in terms of profits of course game developers want that money. Having a billion dollars in profit seems pretty lame when you see that maybe you could be making tens of billions of dollars in profit. It's also not unnoticed that the sellingest games of all time right now are shooters. People are looking at how much people hate Bobby Kotick and his people, yet how they line up to pay them for the latest "Call Of Duty" game. This causes people in the industry to have their eyes rolls around like a slot machine, end up on dollar signs, before burying a knife up to it's hilt in the back of their current fan base and running off road-runner style after those potential profits.

In short, reality bites, and where the game industry was a haven for all things geek, I think it's not going to be that way much longer. As I said in another post, if you look at what the lowest common denominator watches on TV, it's sitcoms, crime/cop shows, and things like that. A science fiction/fantasy property that achieves mass appeal is pretty uncommon. Games like "the Sims" have sitcoms pretty well covered, so it's not surprising we see game companies looking at other generes that the everyman finds appealing, because if they can sell to them, they cna make more money than by selling to us. Previously there was a sort of wall of technological accessibility in the way, and it took a fairly smart person to even be able to play games, and smarter people tend to be more attracted to "geek" entertainment. With that barrier down, now the gaming industy seems to be headed in the direction of TV studios in wanting to recycle only what the ratings show will sell, and that means endless sequences of crime/spy shows and sitcoms and similar kinds of material.

I will post some very judgemental, and not very flattering posts about the subject, but at the same time I also realize there is little I, or anyone, can do to stop it, other than hold up a mirror. Of course with all of that money coming in, it's just like any other group selling out, "we don't owe you anything", and it's easy to keep right on saying that as long as the big checks keep coming in. Big piles of dollars will soothe the most damaged consciences. Unlike some situations where people like me will point out possible violent solution that people won't embrace for a variety of reasons I won't go into, even extreme responses don't work in cases like this because you can't really force a creative process. If you could, rather than paying famous and prolific writers like Steven King big bucks, publishing companies would probably just have books written by sweat shop workers in third world countries under the threat of torture... you can do rote production that way (and people do), but you can't really see things created that way. :)
 

SageRuffin

M-f-ing Jedi Master
Dec 19, 2009
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mireko said:
Better idea: Platinum Games. They made one of the best action games of this generation.

Think about it, Jade Empire meets Bayonetta. You know it makes sense.
While I do like the way you think, what would substitute the demonic fists and boots to the teeth? The best I can think of is some weird Dragonball Z type gameplay with pyrokinesis, and... and cryokinesis... toad demons and elephant demons...

Hmm... you know, that just might work after all.
 

DustyDrB

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Jan 19, 2010
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Therumancer said:
DustyDrB said:
PIRATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please please please please please please please...I really want a good pirate RPG. Want to know how badly I want one? I'm pre-ordering Risen 2: Dark Waters. I'm not expecting quality, just a kind of game I've been wanting for a long time.

Give me my ArrrPGs, already!
The problem with pirate RPGs is coming up with something to do with them. Such games typically come down to arguements about fantasy vs. simulation, with the sim crowd usually winning out. Once you start focusing on recreating the period, it kind of limits things as you wind up only having so many options for what you can do. Your bestiary pretty much winds up being "humans with swords and guns", and after hundreds of hours boating around in one pirate game it tends to become old hat when you run into another one. More detailed RPG mechanics can only add so much to the same basic activities.

I thought Disney's "Pirates Of The Carribean" MMORPG had potential for breaking the mould but it seemed to be too kid friendly, too focused on fitting in movie referances and characters, and by way of being too kid friendly involved things like where you couldn't shoot people with guns (I'm not kidding) one of those "WTF" things because even if your talking about emulating the movies, they certainly have no compunction about shooting each other with pistols.... needless to say I was disappointed and felt they wasted what could have been a really good liscence for adding enough elements to the pirate formula to keep it interesting, especially if they wanted to stray away from the movie a bit more and focus on it being "the world of..." more than such a literal use of the liscence.
Well those problems with the Pirates of the Carribean are both problems of Disney properties (appealing to kids) and movie properties (unwillingness to stray from the source material) in general. There are exceptions to that rule, but I wouldn't bank on a Disney-backed MMO to begin with.

I think there's room both for games that aim for historical accuracy and for those that aim for the more fantastical mythology of pirates (I'd be more excited about the latter, but would still be happy to see the former). Would they good old? For some. Every setting gets old, though.

I read earlier in the thread that you're a fan of science fiction and fantasy settings. You're probably less prone to get tired of those settings, right? And, especially with fantasy, there so many games with very similar settings, creatures, and lore. I like those settings, but do become fatigued of them. But any time such a game is truly done well, then I'm glad to play it. I don't see why that same rule wouldn't apply to pirates in games. If it's done well, it should hold your attention.
 

SuperRobot64

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Mar 22, 2010
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RanD00M said:
As long as the writing isn't as bad as in DA 2 and SW:TOR and the story doesn't feel so unsubstantial as in ME2 then I'll totally play ball.
SWTOR isn't even out yet... I smell corruption.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Thedek said:
There already IS a Call of Cthulu game, that's even the name of it in fact.
There are several in fact if you want to get technical. Bethesda's "Dark Corners Of The Earth" being the most recent, but there were some like "Trail Of The Comet" or something like that not to mention "Prisoner Of Ice".

I specified "Kick Arse" because honestly I felt most of these games were lacking in one or more ways. All of them had a number of problems that I felt kept them from being a really amazing experience. For example while they got a lot of the atmosphere right, I felt "Dark Corners Of The Earth" was lacking from an investigative standpoint for a lot of it, and certain sequences like the whole Innsmouth chase suffered from being tense due to the frustration factor more than anything.

Looking at the interaction/interviewing, clue collection, and similar things in LA Noire along with the gunplay/fighting mechanics it struck me that you could probably do something very true to the RPG in spirit that way, as opposed to a shooter with some gimmicks, or an adventure puzzle game.

It occured to me that you might be able to do something like translate "Masks Of Nylarthotep" or "Horror On The Orient Express" from paper and pencil modules into a video game with all of the key material/desician points and such more or less intact so to speak.

Dark Corners Of The Earth did a lot of things right, as did some of the adventure games I mentioned, but I have yet to find a game that I think has been a definitive experience for this kind of thing, either CoC or just horror in general. There are plenty of fantasy and science fiction games I can point a finger at and say "they did that all perfectly" not so with Horror in general or even just "Call Of Cthlhu" inspired horror.
 

RanD00M

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SuperRobot64 said:
RanD00M said:
As long as the writing isn't as bad as in DA 2 and SW:TOR and the story doesn't feel so unsubstantial as in ME2 then I'll totally play ball.
SWTOR isn't even out yet... I smell corruption.
There is an hour and a half video of gameplay of it out. And at the 29:30 you will find some of the worst video game writing since mid 90's JRPGS.
 

Electric Alpaca

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May 2, 2011
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Why?

An IT consultant doesn't suddenly decide he wants to branch out and do open heart surgery, because that would be a waste of resource, talent, experience and intelligence.

I don't understand the trend that seems to be forming, the trend of developers ignoring what made them popular in the first place. It may be said it's too early to pan the flames, but if they're airing opinion publicly, it means they want feedback.

My feedback: Just stay in the zone you're (relatively) strong in and make hay where not many notice the sun shining.
 

Nfritzappa

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Maybe Bioware could do something in the style of Chrono-Trigger where its a time-traveling rpg, where all your decisions made in the past you travel to are immediately seen as consequences when you travel to the future.
 

infohippie

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Cop drama? Spies? Yawn. What boring genres they are. And this coming on the heels of that steaming pile of Dragon Age 2? Farewell Bioware, you were good back in the day.
 

Drunkbot

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Nov 9, 2010
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Is historical fiction still fantasy?

I would love a Bioware game set against the Opium Wars. There's even a couple of them so they have sequels ready and waiting.
 

Hungry Donner

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Mar 19, 2009
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Personally I think we need more RPGs that don't have fantasy or science-fiction settings. I understand the appeal of these settings for RPGs, in a "real" setting the RPG mechanics stand out more. However even if you keep to speculative fiction there are other options to explore, and I think historic and contemporary settings have a lot to offer.
Drunkbot said:
Is historical fiction still fantasy?

I would love a Bioware game set against the Opium Wars. There's even a couple of them so they have sequels ready and waiting.
You can have a historic setting with magic added and then it would be fantasy, but if you're keeping it historic and real world then it wouldn't be fantasy. (I'd love to see a game set during the Opium Wars as well.)
 

x-machina

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Sep 14, 2010
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After their most recent titles Bioware can do whatever they please, I certainly won't be buying it.
 

Biodeamon

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Apr 11, 2011
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Fine with me. I'm more of a sci-person myself anyways...

Bioware did make Dragon Age, right?
 

Ian Caronia

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I'd be interested in a Bioware venture that's legitimately unique and not filled with the same cookie-cutter gameplay as its recent titles. Like a stealth game, or maybe even a mech-based air/ground warfare... *daydreams*
_Though I always thought maybe a personal drama would be better suited to Bioware were the company to take its games in a new direction. Bioware doesn't have good "epic" story writing (for it's latest titles at least. Can't speak for older ones since I don't know them as intimately). The premise for Mass Effect is lifted from a hard science fiction novel (series) and put into a Space Marine/pseudo Star Trek aesthetic. Not entirely theirs so I won't count it as such. Dragon Age isn't plagiarism-tastic at all (by my knowledge), but the over arcing plot is...well it's kinda...generic. Not entirely bad, since I do like me some DA:O, but it's generic. What can I tell you?
_The reason the games sell (especially ME) is for the characters and character interaction (where the writing actually shines in my opinion...for the most part), and not the plot. Sure some buy them for the plot, but the vast majority just want to see more Tali, Garrus and Alistar, to watch their beloved characters arc as time moves on and see how they're doing. They want to be with them up until the end. This is why I think a game that's mainly a personal drama would be great from them. They already have interesting and romantic characters and their dialogue (at least most of it from ME2 as an indication) is really involving and sometimes moving. No one said there can't be a gun or two firing off, but to make it a mostly grounded drama (grounded even in fantasy) would be gorgeous.

Also, just a pet peeve of mine: Science Fantasy. Science Fiction implies there is actual science and scientific continuity to the universe the story is set in.
There is not.
random guy: "But Mass Effect has-"
A) ME2 clearly states there are multiple black holes at the center of the galaxy. There is not. There is one supermassive black hole.
B) Quarian immune system. As explained in several posts in this thread:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.269401-Talis-immune-system-wait-what
They destroy the continuity to it.
C) MASS EFFECT itself. The games are titled after an inexplicable substance and/or material that not only jumps technology light years but also grants super powers (given a little cyborg-ish brainchip implantation). Also see DARK ENERGY. Not dark matter. DARK ENERGY. Want to bet where that "scientific" term is going to go in ME3?
Mass Effect isn't bad for having dumb and inconsistent science (in the games, at least. Never read the novels since, you know, it's a game series first and those novels are just tie-ins no matter how great they are supposedly written). It's what separates Science Fantasy from Science Fiction. Just...don't call it Science Fiction. That'd be like calling it an RPG and not a Third-Person Shooter. One may consider it as such, but the facts can say they're wrong.

That's it. Still like ME and adore some characters, Tali especially, but I just gotta get the word out on somethings surrounding the game.
As a matter of fact, a game centered entirely on interpersonal drama in the ME universe wouldn't be half bad...

Read the Revelation Space wiki and learn something:
"As Sylveste [Main character & archeologist] and the crew of the Nostalgia for Infinity [tech-enhanced humans] approach Cerberus [a planet, not the organization], Sylveste realizes the massive celestial body isn't a planet at all -- but rather, a massive technological beacon, aimed at alerting machine sentience to the appearance of new star-faring cultures. It is this beacon, Sylveste belatedly realizes, that alerted a machine intelligence known as the Inhibitors to the presence of the Amarantin [the protheans in this case], and ultimately caused the demise of that race."
As I said, I really enjoy Mass Effect, but I won't pretend to be ignorant of the obvious because I like it. Does this change how I view it? Yes, but not much. It's a fun game and I plan on buying more Tali action-er-shooting action (yeah that's what I meant >_>) with ME3.
Does the excuse "nothing is new under the sun" excuse this?
TO answer that: Bioware's next big hit will be a survival horror/RPG series called "In the Nightmare", wherein the protagonist and their friends are hunted in their dreams one-by-one by a clawed villain who abused them when they were children. They have to train and use their psychonautic powers to defeat the serial killer before they're all killed.
Because if you die in the dream, you die for real.

Sounds like a cool game, huh? Also sounds like plagiarism. Not that I wouldn't buy it, just saying I wouldn't defend it's "honor" or anything.
 

DistinctlyBenign

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I thought of Jade Empire at the beginning of the article, but only because I'm in the middle of playing through it again right now. If I was not, I prolly woulda jumped to Mass Effect first.

But an interesting thought. I think BioWare could pull it off, and I'd like to see it is they did.