BioWare Dates Mass Effect 3: Leviathan

[putowtin]

All I know is it gives me an excuse to play ME3 again!

And more Garrus time, surely that's worth 7 quid!?!

 

[SonicWaffle]

And I'm seriously looking forward to meeting Leviathan. I may even buy it dinner... (What food do Reapers eat?)

At a guess, you.

 

[Zortack]

Yet no one calls the same foul when Dawnguard came out, or when ME2 overlord came out years ago, or when knights of the nine came out for Oblivion...the list goes on; DLC or even expansions tied into the original game aren't unusual and normally don't get the same amount of skepticism.

Because those are the same style games as Mass Effect and have had a similar response to their endings? I COMPLETELY understand the reservations of the author. It has nothing to do with catering it's just common sense that some people will not be bothered to play extra content for a game that gives them a 'nothing mattered' ending. I am one of those people.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Would you read a newly added chapter in a previously read book that had a crappy ending? If I wasn't impressed with it the first time around, why should I bother paying to read some chapter slapped in the middle of it?

I wonder how many people bought The Wind Through The Keyhole? Just sayin'...

(I actually quite liked the end of Dark Tower, and have a - library, I should point out - copy of Wind waiting to read. I just don't want to, because there's no way it can have a decent impact on the story. It'll just be a book in which nothing important happens, and probably goes back to Wizard & Glass style prequel)

 

[Hat Man]

After ME3 I am never going to give Bioware any more of my money.

Starting with this.

 

[Tomeran]

Yet no one calls the same foul when Dawnguard came out, or when ME2 overlord came out years ago, or when knights of the nine came out for Oblivion...the list goes on; DLC or even expansions tied into the original game aren't unusual and normally don't get the same amount of skepticism.

But in all of those cases, the fiction in which the DLC was set was ongoing. They could very easily have taken place after the main storyline had been completed. Not so with Leviathan. Mass Effect 3 ended Mass Effect. How do you compellingly follow up on that?

As you said yourself earlier, there is no real right answer, its down to a matter of taste and personal preferance. I'll personally admit its a bit harder to get personally "invested" in dlc that is released following a finished storyline, but for me I am relying on the quality of the dlc storyline itself to keep me entertained and to give me value for the money. Blizzard has a pretty good record for this in my oppinion, in both DA2 and ME2 dlc, so I dont think I'll be dissapointed.
This is a "side adventure" where you get to discover more stuff about the reapers, and that is something kept fairly in the dark in ME3. Perhaps a bit too much. If one really must tie the dlc to the ending of the franchise somehow: Maybe the information revealed about the reapers somehow will affect which choice you'll take at the end, rather then just provide additional war assets? The more you know...

 

[SonicWaffle]

Have you never read a book twice?

There's a big difference, and I think it's a large part of why there's such an outcry over games with bad endings or disappointing games. Our medium of choices requires far more time and effort to enjoy than other popular forms of storytelling. If it takes you thirty hours to read a book, it's an incredibly long book but you've not been required to be actively invested that entire time. You're experiencing the story without participation.

In games, you have to earn your progress. If you're watching a movie and just want to know the ending, you can skip ahead, but with a video game that content is locked to you until you prove your skill or invest sufficient time and effort. Ergo, having invested so much more, we expect so much more in return. A movie with a bad ending - The Dark Knight Rises, for instance - will draw criticism but not the vitriolic hatred we saw aimed at ME3, because our total investment in Nolan's trilogy is around ten hours of passively sitting and watching events unfold before us. Our total investment with the Mass Effect universe can run to hundreds of hours, and we're not experiencing it passively either; every plot point or character progression has been worked for, earned. We've dictated the course of the story ourselves, and so to be handed a shitty ending is an invalidation of all our hard work.

I'm not saying that justifies the intense fan outcry, but it does make it far easier to understand, and it also renders comparison to other passively-experienced forms of storytelling meaningless.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Yet no one calls the same foul when Dawnguard came out, or when ME2 overlord came out years ago, or when knights of the nine came out for Oblivion...the list goes on; DLC or even expansions tied into the original game aren't unusual and normally don't get the same amount of skepticism.

But in all of those cases, the fiction in which the DLC was set was ongoing. They could very easily have taken place after the main storyline had been completed. Not so with Leviathan. Mass Effect 3 ended Mass Effect. How do you compellingly follow up on that?

Doesn't that depend on your ending? I went with synthesis (which AFAIK is technically the "good" ending, as you can only get it if you've been enough of a Paragon and it essentially boils down to "everyone gets to live together in harmony"), and I can see that being an interesting setting for future games.

I think the Catalyst is being hilariously optimistic in assuming that, say, Batarian slave traders or Vorcha mercenaries are going to settle down and buy a farm just because everyone is now technically part synthetic. War? War never changes, even if the biological makeup of the combatants does. It would be fun to see how a hybrid character played, what new tech powers were gained from the melding. Playing through a storyline about a galaxy struggling to come to terms with a massive, unprecedented change that certainly not all of them (remember the anti-biotic, "pure human" terrorists from the earlier games? How do you think they feel about suddenly becoming part machine against their will?) wanted or approve of.

Of course, if BW don't want to play that angle, they can always cheap out by following the example of the Star Wars EU, and bringing in totally new aliens from outside the known galaxy who just want to fuck shit up.

 

[TheCaptain]

I'm more than ready to give it a try. I've said it time and again that whoever actually wrote that Mass Effect 3 ending just shouldn't consider himself a writer by trade, but then there was the rest of the game and the series overall, and I'm not gonna let a bout of bad writing ruin the whole 120 hours per playthrough for me.

That said, it'd be interesting to see how and if this ties into the ending - if Shepard already gets deeper insight into the Reapers' origins, will that change the dialogue with Skynet in the end of the game?

Also, I'm curious if this and future DLC will have an actual impact on the ending. It seems kinda silly that at 100 % Galactic Readiness "allied forces a holding steady and winning in key locations" you enter the final battle with around 4k surplus Effective Military Strength points, that number growing with every DLC they release. I'd love to be able to actually DO something with these points. They could do that, and since it'd be "on their own terms" they'd even come out with there precious "artistic integrity" intact.

As for the Rogue Reaper theory:

Spoiler

As far as I recall, this was only deduced from the connection to the Leviathan of Dis, which we learned in ME3 was an inactive Reaper. Could be that the title has a double meaning and refers not only to the Leviathan of Dis, but also the Reaper-killing creature that for lack of a proper title shall henceforth be known as The Bigger Fish.

 

[Legion]

It sounds pretty cool, but is it actually interesting enough to bother with? We all know how the Mass Effect story ends, after all, so no matter what you do or what happens in Leviathan, the outcome will be the same.

You could say the same for any (side) mission in the game. I fail to see how that's a point against this DLC.

Knowing how something ends doesn't need to detract from its entertainment value. Have you never read a book twice?

The difference is that Mass Effect is a game that has always claimed to have the player shape the story and make decisions that affect what happens. Unless this DLC actually does that, then it's not adding anything significant to the plot. It won't matter what happens, as everything still happens as it did before.

The argument only holds because Bioware were stupid enough to constantly claim how much the players choices affect the story. If they'd just kept their mouths shut rather than trying to hype the game with all of their inaccurate claims about how much our decisions matter, then it'd be the same as the book argument.

That said, some people may just be willing to enjoy it for what it has, and not be bothered that it doesn't have any impact on the main story, if that's the case, then nobody can criticise them for it, they just may enjoy the series for different reasons.

 

[chiefohara]

Im buying it, The EC was enough for me to forgive the ending and enjoy the game again.

Prior to EC though, i probably wouldn't have.

 

[Goofguy]

Would you read a newly added chapter in a previously read book that had a crappy ending? If I wasn't impressed with it the first time around, why should I bother paying to read some chapter slapped in the middle of it?

I wonder how many people bought The Wind Through The Keyhole? Just sayin'...

(I actually quite liked the end of Dark Tower, and have a - library, I should point out - copy of Wind waiting to read. I just don't want to, because there's no way it can have a decent impact on the story. It'll just be a book in which nothing important happens, and probably goes back to Wizard & Glass style prequel)

Still a difference between the Dark Tower series and my previous statement. It's a whole book that was added to a series with a fantastic ending. However, I still have yet to read it... I should definitely buy it, thanks for reminding me.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Would you read a newly added chapter in a previously read book that had a crappy ending? If I wasn't impressed with it the first time around, why should I bother paying to read some chapter slapped in the middle of it?

I wonder how many people bought The Wind Through The Keyhole? Just sayin'...

(I actually quite liked the end of Dark Tower, and have a - library, I should point out - copy of Wind waiting to read. I just don't want to, because there's no way it can have a decent impact on the story. It'll just be a book in which nothing important happens, and probably goes back to Wizard & Glass style prequel)

Still a difference between the Dark Tower series and my previous statement. It's a whole book that was added to a series with a fantastic ending. However, I still have yet to read it... I should definitely buy it, thanks for reminding me.

I mentioned before that I quite liked the Dark Tower's ending, but (aside from yourself) everyone else I've discussed it with hates it. I've heard it called a cop-out, lazy writing, an insult to the readers etc etc. So I can't really see how the examples are that different - if we take the Dark Tower as one long story, isn't Wind just another chapter? Being a midquel, it isn't going to add anything to the overall story or change the ending in any way, much like this Leviathan DLC.

I find the very idea of a midquel very confusing - it's like the writer or developer saying "Here, buy this, it's a story so totally unimportant that after it happens no character ever, ever mentions it again throughout the rest of the series. It will add nothing to the plot, fix nothing you dislike about the end of the series, but give me your money anyway"

 

[Quazimofo]

Despite my hatred for the ending (for me the EC just turned the Shit into polished shit) I was never one of the super angry, bat crap crazy people as I loved the rest of the game. However I have tried to replay it twice now and I just cannot do it. The ending has actualy managed to suck out the enjoyment for me. For all 3 games. Something about knowing that all the epic stuff you do will end with a magic space kid telling you a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense has ruined the whole series for me.

Bit pissed of about that so I will give it a miss.

I feel your pain. I own both the PS3 and 360 versions of the game, and while I got all the trophies for the PS3, the ending just made it so I couldn't get those last achievements on the 360. Knowing that none of your choices matter in the final moments of the game just kills the entire trilogy for me too. I don't feel the weight and dread behind the choices anymore.

I wish I could be as excited about this as I was about Mass Effect 2's DLCs, but I just can't. My forces can already stomp the Reapers, and knowing that this 'traitor' Reaper will only increase a number on the table and not change anything else just kills it for me. Adding Zaeed and Kasumi changed the ending to Mass Effect 2. This will not have the same effect for me. I'll still buy this and play it, but for the first time it will be for the trophies and achievements first, and storyline a distant second. And that kills me.
(sorry if this is a double post. Got an error message the first time I tried to post this)

yeah, this is why i havent, unlike in the last 2 mass effect games, played through the story more than once. different reasons however, its more like... i know how the story ends, one way or the other, we pull it off. i spent 100+ hours over 3 games doing everything i could so that i would have the best chance i could to win, and i did. i tied up just about every loose end there could be before moving on from each game, so the story of Shepard, MY Shepard, has ended.

i could start up a new one, but ive gone through mass effect 1 thrice now, and the story isnt that interesting anymore, since i know how everything plays out. and for mass effect 2.... well i could go back to that one because i never got any of the post story dlc, but my GOD is it jarring to shift back to the ME2 combat system from either of the other games.

anyway, long story short (and boy were these games a long story), i might go for this dlc, but i might not. depends on how i feel about starting up a finished story again

 

[Saviordd1]

Yet no one calls the same foul when Dawnguard came out, or when ME2 overlord came out years ago, or when knights of the nine came out for Oblivion...the list goes on; DLC or even expansions tied into the original game aren't unusual and normally don't get the same amount of skepticism.

Speak for yourself.

I was calling foul on Dawnguard when they told me I'd have to give them $20 for it. I will never be convinced that it has nearly enough content to be worth a third of the original title price, especially when the lists that people have compiled suggest that it's not nearly as much as it sounds like. >_>

Honestly I thought it was worth it...depending.
If you want new weapons, new story, new companions and new armor; dawnguard is for you. It's story takes about the same amount of time to get through as the main quest from skyrim not including the side things.

If your really into exploration...you'll be more disappointed.

Yet no one calls the same foul when Dawnguard came out, or when ME2 overlord came out years ago, or when knights of the nine came out for Oblivion...the list goes on; DLC or even expansions tied into the original game aren't unusual and normally don't get the same amount of skepticism.

But in all of those cases, the fiction in which the DLC was set was ongoing. They could very easily have taken place after the main storyline had been completed. Not so with Leviathan. Mass Effect 3 ended Mass Effect. How do you compellingly follow up on that?

By making the story itself interesting. Even if it doesn't play into the ending people can still load the saves that are automatically made before the final battle and play through the DLC for what it is.
If it affects the ending somehow even better.

 

[The Great JT]

This will be glorious. You know it.

Also you just know the next one is going to be retaking Omega.

 

[ARCTIC_EAGLE]

hmmm pay more money for a game with that bad of an ending? LOL nope.exe

 

[darth gditch]

I'm looking forward to it, I would like to see them explore the Reaper's origins a bit more.
Plus my favorite part about the ME franchise is the setting, so more mass effect is always good for me. XD

 

[Mysten]

I think the Catalyst is being hilariously optimistic in assuming that, say, Batarian slave traders or Vorcha mercenaries are going to settle down and buy a farm just because everyone is now technically part synthetic. War? War never changes, even if the biological makeup of the combatants does.

The Catalyst isn't concerned with such things. Slavers and mercenaries are easily policed whilst what the Catalyst is trying to protect us from is potential galactic genocide. It's the difference between the world as it is right now with warring nations, violent revolutions and organised crime but largely stable versus what happens after Skynet is activated.

 

[SonicWaffle]

I think the Catalyst is being hilariously optimistic in assuming that, say, Batarian slave traders or Vorcha mercenaries are going to settle down and buy a farm just because everyone is now technically part synthetic. War? War never changes, even if the biological makeup of the combatants does.

The Catalyst isn't concerned with such things. Slavers and mercenaries are easily policed whilst what the Catalyst is trying to protect us from is potential galactic genocide. It's the difference between the world as it is right now with warring nations, violent revolutions and organised crime but largely stable versus what happens after Skynet is activated.

Hmm. I thought that was the message the Catalyst was trying to impart, that melding the two types of lifeform would lead to peace. Plus, y'know, in my playthrough I made peace between the Geth and the Quarian, the Krogan and the Turian, basically I united the entire galaxy. It seemed pretty peaceful overall!