BioWare "Falsely Advertised" Mass Effect 3

[Murmillos]

I'm not sure what teeth the BBB has... Other then its a small marginal shot into the mighty sails of EA-Ware. So they did justify what many people claimed (the ending was false advertising).. but not like the ending was the big deciding factor in buying the game.

I'm still royally pissed off at EA/BioWare. I'll still may get DA3.. but really PAX people, cheering for features that will be in DA3 that shouldn't have been cut for DA2 in the first place? Just another sign of the sad state of gaming. I'll be keeping tabs on the game as develops, but without joy or any excitement in doing so; nor will I be elastically in wanting to giving them my money for a collectors edition... I may get a normal copy, if I feel they have earned the right for me to want to play their game.

 

[Mournblade94]

I would like the option, the chance at a happy ending. Or at least one with more Sweetness and slightly less Bitterness.

Annoying thing is (wel one of the annoying things) is that they proved they can do bitter sweet endings right. Some of the missions had damn bitter sweet endings. Especially curing the genophage if Mording is/was loyal, it managed to be both optimistic and depressing at the same time.

that's what you get when the ending isn't peer reviewed - and instead is written by two guys, one of which have a mancruch on deep philosophical endings, which ends up having no connection to the rest of the plot

Agreed. Also if you are going to make the deep philosophical ending you need more than sophomoric knowledge about philosophy. If the indoctrination ending is infact intentional I take it back. The philosophy of the ending has been seen before. And before. And before. m night shamaln does it better.

And he sucks at it.

 

[SweetLiquidSnake]

I've done it.... I'm stumbled upon a Masshole nest.... They're everywhere! Quick! Grab your flame shield and some tylenol because the amount of whining is gonna give you a migraine!

 

[Mournblade94]

I've done it.... I'm stumbled upon a Masshole nest.... They're everywhere! Quick! Grab your flame shield and some tylenol because the amount of whining is gonna give you a migraine!

The longer you stay in here the more intense the migraine. You should probably just ignore the thread.

So easy.

Now you don't have to be bothered.

 

[Wieke]

I would like the option, the chance at a happy ending. Or at least one with more Sweetness and slightly less Bitterness.

Annoying thing is (wel one of the annoying things) is that they proved they can do bitter sweet endings right. Some of the missions had damn bitter sweet endings. Especially curing the genophage if Mording is/was loyal, it managed to be both optimistic and depressing at the same time.

that's what you get when the ending isn't peer reviewed - and instead is written by two guys, one of which have a mancruch on deep philosophical endings, which ends up having no connection to the rest of the plot

Agreed. Also if you are going to make the deep philosophical ending you need more than sophomoric knowledge about philosophy. If the indoctrination ending is infact intentional I take it back. The philosophy of the ending has been seen before. And before. And before. m night shamaln does it better.

And he sucks at it.

Yeah those leaks did explain a lot.

In my opinion it also shows how they should have attempted to correct the ending. Have the entire writing team peer review it and apply corrections as needed (maybe scrap the whole thing if it is deemed salvageable). But this "extended cut" thing, erhm, I'll reserve my judgement for when I see it but I doubt they can explain away some of our grievances.

Hopefully the industry will learn not to promise what they can not deliver. And hopefully the game-journalist learn consider the business aspects of the industry, like the guys at Forbes do , and not belittle fans with genuine grievances.

 

[viranimus]

We disagree on a fundamental point. You believe that any sort of promotion that is not strictly paid-for advertising does not count as promotion.

I, and the U.S. advertising regulatory system (from what I can understand), believe otherwise.

Pointless to argue further, really.

I could persist in presenting a wealth of examples that (in my opinion) constitute examples of misleading promotion and advertising, but if you don't believe them to constitute advertising to begin with, there's no point.

Spoiler: I would have to ask you expand your understanding of the definitions of advertising regulations then

?widespread promotional activities directed to the public-at-large? and that mere ?personal solicitations are not advertising.

To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove ALL five things:
(1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity;

(2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience;

(3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience;

(4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and

(5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Spoiler: Responsive ad regulation

As you see, tidbits mined from biowares forums do not constitute widespread or substantial portions of the target audience because only a small portion of the target audience would have done that. Quotes from obscure forum posts are deemed not as advertisement. Large portions of people who will buy a game actually dont do research on the product before purchase. They do not visit the developers forums, they do not read gamestops proprietary magazine as a trusted source (or why would they?) to make the decision to buy the product. Simply put, References from the bioware forums, as well as interviews from one proprietary and extremely biased magazine. Most people had made up their mind to buy the game regardless of these factors and did not even realize these elements existed before the game was released

Spoiler: countdown

1: No actual statement of fact in advertisement had been made.
2: The statements that are considered as false are not statements that widely reached the audience (IE forum posts) or are misinterpreted by the reader to imply intention (casey article/ME3 "outcome" reference)
3: The statements on forums were not widely exposed to the core audience of the game as most people had no reason to read the bioware forum data mining for every tidbit of data on the game.
4: Got me there.
5: No damage was done to the customer by actual or perceived claims made on the game as the user was given exactly what actual advertisements promised. Such as 50+ hours of gameplay, involved and epic storyline, etc At no time was an actual advertisement specifically regarding the ending of the game. The only references that are specific to the ending of the game come from Bioware forum posts which do not constitute widespread exposure to the target audience before the release of the game and as such not advertisements or the one often quoted but clearly interpretation GI interview with Casey Hudson that can be interpreted in ways other than what the consensus of the "false advertising" claimants make.

Spoiler: Summation

Now, I have illustrated how both what is being cited is not actually advertisement, as well as illustrated how in what is classified as advertisement no false claim was made. I have illustrated this under logical explanations, cited exact examples of proof and dismissed what is not to be considered under the definition of the laws by which it would be determined and governed. So the point here is to clear up incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings of the law that are giving people the wrong idea of the nature of the validity of this claim. It is not a matter of belief or opinion it is clearly defined as legal precedent that any attorney handling this in a court of law would immediately point to. Its not a matter of a differing opinion on fundamental points because the points are clearly defined through historical precedent. Its not a matter of being closed minded Its a matter of it being an open and shut case.

Simply put there is no legal ground for the claim of false advertisement to stand on. Its simply unsubstantiated. If this claim somehow makes it to an actual court it will quickly be dismissed with Attorneys ripping the claim to shreds easier than I have.

 

[samaugsch]

But... but... but... artistic integrity! Would someone PLEASE think of the artistic integrity?!

Spoiler

That was a joke.

I see what you did there.

On-topic: I was thinking the same thing about the false advertising bit. I was thinking, "Man, I'm surprised they haven't gotten sued yet, considering everyone's reactions."

 

[samaugsch]

If this works, I also want to sue the makers of Dead Island for saying it was local co-op when it isn't. Dicks. Wouldn't have brought that otherwise.

[sarcasm]Local co-op is so last decade.[/sarcasm]

 

[Seanfall]

I would like the option, the chance at a happy ending. Or at least one with more Sweetness and slightly less Bitterness.

Annoying thing is (wel one of the annoying things) is that they proved they can do bitter sweet endings right. Some of the missions had damn bitter sweet endings. Especially curing the genophage if Mording is/was loyal, it managed to be both optimistic and depressing at the same time.

That was one of my favorite missions. I could go on and on about Mordin's character. But I'll just say that not only his death but the others of your squad who die are just as bitter sweet. Good bittersweet I mean. Hell Mordin and Thane actually brought me to tears, not man tears either. Which is the ending is so bad in comparison....when they prove they have the ability to stir deep emotion and choose not too.

 

[mfeff]

-snip-

Unfortunately, as it has been pointed out... if Casey Hudson promised a gold brick in every box of ME 3... but there was no agreement between parties... then it is nothing but some shit he said.

Did he lie?

Sure.

Is he liable for the lie?

Nope. Not in the slightest.

The advertisement on the website is the advertisement.

Simply because an incorrect statement is made a million times doesn't make it any less incorrect.

I'm taking the liberty to post a legal definition of the U.S' interpretation of False Advertising:

"Any advertising or promotion that misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities or geographic origin of goods, services or commercial activities" (Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C.A. § 1125(a)).
.

Ah Ha! Nice post again!

So the next question is, to define the "to what extent" or the "limit" of the liability. For every Casey Hudson statement one way, one may find another statement that may be used in our out of context that countermands the previous one.

That being said, as I mentioned several post before... Art or not, is nonsense for the masses to discuss. At the end of the day it is software, plain and simple. Software typically, simply has to "run", "execute", or "start".

Remember Sword of the Stars II? I sure do.

Clearly it does this. Now as far as the liable, what is the penalty? What are the punitive damages? Further Promotional materials are not generally suitable for sale in the retail market. That is to say, pre-release hype is generally not considered legally binding with respect to a final product. To "be liable" one would seemingly have to be promoting a product that is "held out for purchase".

This is why there are "kick-starters", and "crowed funding" schemes. Retailers do not like to handle transactions for products that have not been "officially commercially released".

Mind you the consumer confidence is shattered, the "game journalist" look like a bunch of mooks on the take... but so what? I am not sure there is a single EA/Bioware account "post release" quantifying or restating anything from the promotional material as a "fact" in the retail product.

Individual retailers have certainly responded, Amazon issuing returns for one, local stores doing the same here and there. EA/Bioware? They could give a shit less, cause as far as a legal "exposure" there is none. It's one of the reasons three well-to-do doctor's started a software company making video games to begin with. It's a "thing" that prints money.

Should there be laws? Maybe, but market forces will work to spite any legal enforcement.

As I said, Pre-Release promotion, and Promotion... two very different things. Is it shady? Sure. Is it "Illegal" nope... not in the slightest.

 

[Carne]

I don't exactly like the whole mass effect controversy thing, but I think it's going to generate a lot more good than bad in the long term. What I don't like is the fact that some the people who shout about how it's all entirely ridiculous, probably make the same remarks about how people don't do anything to show that companies are making easy choices - like continuous sequels, or generic fps remakes.

Just part of being a fanboy. No one's plight is bad except your own. Many bashers of MERetakers probably have acted the exact same way at some point in time. Maybe about Jericho, Firely, Warhammer or any other franchise that has been cancelled or messed up. They cry foul, but when someone else does about something that they aren't as invested in it's entitlement.

 

[irishda]

And one more time just so we're clear:
I'm not saying "games should be the same as life". I'm pointing out the flawed reasoning that people's decisions in the game didn't matter because there were only three endings. A story is not defined by the last two pages, just as our lives are not defined by how we die, because even though the galaxy ends up in one of three ways, the state of that galaxy was determined by the player's decisions.

The three endings were not the problem. The three Bad endings were the problem. The final state of the galaxy after the endings actually has very little to do with the decisions shephard makes previous to the ABC yes/no/nor point.

the reason your point does not apply here is because lives are not defined the same way as art. Some M night shalamaln movies were great until the end. At the end the twist changed the paradigm of the movie.

The ending indeed changes a story. The ending can make or break a great story.

Actually there are people in history that are elevated or villified because of how they died, regardless of their previous deeds. So indeed I did not miss your point it was just not relevant.

I'm going to write two sentences. One is my life/death metaphor; the other is the point I'm trying to make. Let's see where the overlap is.

When you die, regardless of the fact that everyone's state is exactly the same (dead), your life's story is not defined solely by the end result of that life (i.e. you being dead) because of the many different actions or events in your life.
When the game ends, regardless of the fact that there are only three possible endings, the story is not defined solely by those three endings because of the many different actions and decisions the player made in the game.

Endings can very much make or break a story (like that movie Warrior fucking sucks because of those last five minutes), but the quality of the story is not what I'm arguing for. I'm arguing that even though a lot of people have the same endings to their Mass Effect stories, not everyone has the same story, which is exactly why their decisions and choices still mattered even after the ending.

 

[Aprilgold]

Jokes on the gamers! Now, we'll get the same exact ending to every fucking game. The safe, happy ending that nobody has grounds to complain about. Thank you, "retakers". Thank you for your entitled douchebaggery.

Alright, firstly, if you do not understand the word that is Entitled or Entitlement and any variation there of then you should not use it in any circumstance. I am entitled to a product that is fit-for-purpose, thus if I am un-happy with it I am entitled to complain or return the product for compensation. Being entitled is not a insult due to the way the word can be used is almost always in a way of stating a right of a person.

Secondly, if you do not understand what you are arguing against, don't even argue about it. The Retake Mass Effect's movement's goal from the very start was to get Bioware to make a DLC, free or not to make the ending less shitty or to have more closure, not to change it to where everybody lives happily ever after.

As many have pointed out, the ending makes no sense. If we want to get into a very much deeper look at it, in order for Joker to escape the planet with Shephard's teammates who were with him no less then ten minutes earlier, he would have to travel down, convince them to come with him and then leave. Not only would this be completely outside of the character's set motives, no one on the crew would willingly Shepard behind. Mind you this is within a span of ten minutes until you can make your choice. I'm not sure how fast that ship can go but simply convincing them to follow would take something like twenty minutes at least not counting time dodging and / or killing reapers.

Next one is that people randomly appear on the citadel that couldn't have possibly gotten there without Shephard meeting them first before reaching their desired destination.

Last is the God-Child who was never hinted at earlier in the series or even the same game that essentially hands you a Deus Ex Machinima and also rips the options straight from Deus Ex.

Honestly, you don't know enough to comment if you only know what Bob Chapman has been saying for the past few episodes. You come off as someone who doesn't know the situation at all and doesn't even know what word he is using as a insult.

If you wanted better grounds for what you were saying you could have very easily picked up a valuable argument from the internet. The best one I came across was very shallow and essentially just saying that corporations can do no wrong.

In the future, evaluate your points to actually suit what you dislike. This isn't something of personal taste as it is something is being pointed out as shoddy and thousands agree, while thousands jump in front of bullets to protect the publisher from any hate, despite being simultaneously fucked by the publisher in many different aspects. Why couldn't you have made a sensible arguement like Mr or Mrs VMK did?

I think Bioware should just stop making RPG games and start making sport-sims and multiplayer FPSes. At least fans of those games are not as rage-filled as RPG ones, and are more grateful.
And it will bring them more money.

I understand that they could have done it better. I understand that everyone (including me) wanted to see the impact of their actions. But this is just ridiculous. Such ammount of rage and complaints is but a tantrum. Legal complaint? Are you kidding me?!

They [Bioware]have already said, that they, well, "feel us" (On this I trust Bioware); They have already stated that they are making an Extended cut DLC (which, I assure You, will be free: EA won't dare make us pay for it after the whole scandal).
What else do you want? You want them to buy your copies from you and replace it with the "right" ones for free? Maybe a fellatio from Ray Muzyka himself, just for the sake of it?

You played the game, you enjoyed it until the very end, which they will fix.
So stop it. Just stop it. This is literally crazy. It is as if litlle spoiled kid got a fresh, home-made chocolate cookle from his/her grandma, and saw a bit of raw dough on the side:
-UWWAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!!! This cookie is bad!!!!
-Honey, please calm down, grandma will fix it.
-No!You messed it up! I hate you!- screamed the child, while eating one cookie after another, for they were delicious, every single one of them. Exept for the one with the dough.

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

Thank you for this for actually providing a little bit of sense on this. Although its completely different between Mass Effect and Star Wars. In Star Wars the scene was perfectly fine and was ultimately hypocritical of George Lucas since he himself preached about the evils of allowing people to change their works. In Mass Effect its a terrible scene that, overall is just not good enough to pass any inspection.

----------------------------------------------------

I called this a while ago that Mass Effect's scandal could very well be brought up with legal action if need be. I wouldn't blame anyone if they did take legal action against Mass Effect 3, due to this actually being truth now, apparently. It has nothing to do with what fans want when it comes to legal shit, it is about what is legal and not illegal, and this just so happens to fall off into the illegal category.

 

[Mournblade94]

I'm going to write two sentences. One is my life/death metaphor; the other is the point I'm trying to make. Let's see where the overlap is.

When you die, regardless of the fact that everyone's state is exactly the same (dead), your life's story is not defined solely by the end result of that life (i.e. you being dead) because of the many different actions or events in your life.
When the game ends, regardless of the fact that there are only three possible endings, the story is not defined solely by those three endings because of the many different actions and decisions the player made in the game.

Endings can very much make or break a story (like that movie Warrior fucking sucks because of those last five minutes), but the quality of the story is not what I'm arguing for. I'm arguing that even though a lot of people have the same endings to their Mass Effect stories, not everyone has the same story, which is exactly why their decisions and choices still mattered even after the ending.

Absolutely. I would be in agreement that very few people had the exact same story. For that extent, the choices mattered.

I am disappointed with Mass Effect 3 for more than the ending. If the ending was adequate I would have just shrugged it off. The Rachni queen was one place where the anticipation was high and a dudd was given. I liked part of ME3, and I disliked parts of ME3. Regardless of the ending for some reason I was hating the London boards.

Problem is after being disappointed with DA2, and ME3 building anticipation and not following through for many people, I am not sure if Bioware stories are worth investing in anymore. That is all plain and simple.

if Bioware changes their ending, that is great. If they don't I have not given it much thought except for these threads. My faith in them as a consumer however is shaken. Where before I looked to Bioware for the genre games I can really get into, Now they are becoming a company that makes 'just another' RPG.

 

[tangoprime]

No, they're getting sued for false advertising, not because the ending sucked (even though it did) but because the choices that you had at the ending achieved nothing. Hell, is it even possible to fail mass effect 3? If I rushed through the game and didn't collect war assets, picking the worst choices, I would still beat the reapers.

There wasn't meaningful choices. At all.

Do you REALLY feel they deserved this? Games marketing ALWAYS promises more than the game could deliver. Why is Bioware being singled out?

Because they lied? They promised so much, like us not getting a A B C choice ending, and that's what we got, we got promised that our choices mattered, they did not, there going down the road that capcom has been on for years, and this is coming from a Mass Effect fan, if you cant tell by my Screen Name.

Exactly. When you GIVE SPECIFIC DETAILS about a product, and those SPECIFIC DETAILS ARE INCORRECT it's called FALSE ADVERTISING.

Project Director Casey Hudson:
?Yeah, and I?d say much more so, because we have the ability to build
the endings out in a way that we don?t have to worry about eventually
tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end
with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At
this point we?re taking into account so many decisions that you?ve made
as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It?s not even in any way
like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings
there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a
lot more sophistication and variety in them.?

...do they now? Because what we were given is exactly, EXACTLY what this entire blurb said we were specifically NOT getting. This, children, is false advertising, and the BBB is correct in their statement.

 

[AnarchistAbe]

You played the game, you enjoyed it until the very end, which they will fix.
So stop it. Just stop it. This is literally crazy. It is as if litlle spoiled kid got a fresh, home-made chocolate cookle from his/her grandma, and saw a bit of raw dough on the side:
-UWWAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!!! This cookie is bad!!!!
-Honey, please calm down, grandma will fix it.
-No!You messed it up! I hate you!- screamed the child, while eating one cookie after another, for they were delicious, every single one of them. Exept for the one with the dough.

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

I'm suing Disney! It is NOT the happiest place on earth. Who's with me? Let's report them to the BBB!!! Down with their tyrannical empire of lies!!!!

 

[Aprilgold]

You played the game, you enjoyed it until the very end, which they will fix.
So stop it. Just stop it. This is literally crazy. It is as if litlle spoiled kid got a fresh, home-made chocolate cookle from his/her grandma, and saw a bit of raw dough on the side:
-UWWAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!!! This cookie is bad!!!!
-Honey, please calm down, grandma will fix it.
-No!You messed it up! I hate you!- screamed the child, while eating one cookie after another, for they were delicious, every single one of them. Exept for the one with the dough.

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

I'm suing Disney! It is NOT the happiest place on earth. Who's with me? Let's report them to the BBB!!! Down with their tyrannical empire of lies!!!!

Man your missing points all over the place today. You alright man? Eating healthy and all the water you need is being drank?

I never said Mass Effect couldn't have a depressing ending, or that every ending had to be depressing, but your just widely shouting out accusations. Disney can be as happy as long as it wants, because they are good at making movies, Mass Effect can be as grim as it wants, but if its written horribly then its bad. I guess its like comparing a pixar movie to what a kid wrote in english class in Gradeschool. Obviously Pixar is going to be better in every way to that little kid. Pointing out that the kid should try again isn't like telling Pixar to remake a movie.