BioWare Knows It Can't Please Everyone

[tensorproduct]

i have to agree with regarding the destruction option, the idea of the geth and especially EDI being wiped out was abhorent to me. i ended up chooing synthesis because of my main shepards moral compass. Aspects of the ending that didnt make sense such as the illusive mans pressence on the station was nonetheless a part of the story i really enjoyed. Starchild and normandy aside however my biggest gripe was a lack of an epilogue. i know shepards story ended there and i had a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that was always how it was going to bebut id ended up caring for the universe and secondary characters almost as much, and for so many unanswered variables to not be addressed did get to me it was quite a disapointment. but hopefully the extended cut DLC will address that.

asfor the indoctrination theory. well i see it as a missed opportunity unfortunatley.

thank you for answering my question

No problem at all. A pleasure to talk to you.

 

[irishda]

2. They should change the game because I (the customer) am right when I say the ending sucks.

The trip up comes in both the subjective nature of you being right, and in your double-backing on what Bioware should or shouldn't do.

Given the nature of storytelling and the inherent logic of the ME universe, the ending objectively sucks. Both in its presentation and content.

That can't be said of any ending, especially given the nature of storytelling. If it objectively sucked than no one would like it, evidence to the contrary of which exists on this forum.

 

[soren7550]

Yeah... releasing it on the same day as Dawnguard. Who decided that would be a good idea?
I'm having to choose between my massively, massively-anticipated Dawnguard and fucking shit up Van Helsing-esque vampire style, or some extra cutscenes for a game I'm trying to forget about.
Not a particularly tough decision.

Not to mention one doesn't take five hours to download.

Capatcha: fezes are cool
Indeed!

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

This is pure histrionics but I'll run with it as best I can. From my perspective, this is not a matter of taste but of insultingly shitty quality. The ending sucks and I want it changed. I sympathize if you don't want it to change. I understand that you will be inconvenienced. But games get changed all the time for better or worse. Do you really think every developer that ever did that is a bigger dick than whatever? Give me a break. Sorry you don't want it changed but I do and that's that. Fortunately, you are perfectly free to purchase a different product that suits your tastes. In fact, I encourage it.

I'm gonna just cut to this cause this is what it essentially boils down to, plus it's kind of odd that you took my line almost verbatim and plugged it as if it justifies your opinion...

You... called me a dick. Are you suggesting there was a subtler meaning in your post? How was I supposed to take it?

The million dollar question is: why is it encouraged for me to find different products that suit my tastes, but this particular one has to be changed for you?

Because it sucks. Have I not been clear on this point?

As I pointed out, you're demanding a product be changed to the detriment of others' enjoyment. You might be tempted to retort, "yes, but as it is, the product is detrimental to MY enjoyment." And once again the question must be raised as to why it's so important that this product especially must be enjoyable to you instead of you finding another. There exists numerous means for resale in this industry, so it's not really a question of money, unless you went digital, in which case lesson learned I hope.

You find another. I want this one changed. It is inadequate and requires fixing. This is not a matter of taste from my perspective, so you're not going to get anywhere with me no matter how many times you go down that road. You cannot blame me if I do not have a taste for things that suck. I get what you're saying. You've discovered we have a conflict of interests. I don't know what you want to me to say to resolve the situation except to give in to your wishes for the game, and I'm not going to do that.

I really have to refer back to my original metaphor in the hopes to show you why people would feel offended by your opinion. It's kind of a dick move to latch onto a product you don't like and demand it's change, rather than seeking out another that you like. It's like breaking other kids' toys because it wasn't what you wanted.

The trouble with metaphors is they illustrate an idea but they don't prove a point. I only say that to avoid an unending circle of metaphors. That is yours and here is mine: This is a game breaking bug and I want it fixed but you refuse to allow it because you prefer your disc to function as a coaster.

It might be why the Retake people always felt so "abused" for merely expressing their opinion, cause their opinion realized meant others happiness would be endangered.

Or maybe it's because people dismiss them, swear at them and call them entitled and things like that. Every Mass Effect thread I've ever read has contained very civil critics of the ending and abusive critics of the 'Retakers'. They even invent clever names for them like "Massholes", so you can't convince me this is all on the Retakers (or whoever). Plus, you called me a dick. It's a little late to play innocent bystander now.

Basically your argument is my desires conflict with your own, and I am spoiling something you like. I'm not happy about that but I am perfectly prepared to accept it. Call me a dick all you want.

 

[The Floating Nose]

There are some people who just outright rejected the whole concept of the endings, and wanted us to start from scratch and redo everything. And we can't do that because that's not our story; we wouldn't know how to write that story.How could they? Deus Ex didn't write that story for them.

OR maybe you could just ask Drew Karpyshyn to do it. You know the guy who actually DID create Mass Effect.

Cue the shitstorm of people basically saying "But they could at least please ME!"

It's better than writing an ending just to please themselves.

Bioware created Mass Effect, they can do whatever they want with their creation. If what they wanted is to do an ending where almost everything turns to crap. Well, it's their choice. It's been 3 months since the game has been released and people are STILL complaining...repeating the same things over and over again...come on guys, get over it. I thought the ending was fine, yes it was sad but Sheppard in the end went from being just a human to being a legend that people will tell and that will live on for a long long time...that's much better than a medal, a pat on the back or a "you win" screen.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I probably should have called it a straw man. What I'm trying to say is, rarely does anyone actually try to pass off their opinion as fact, and that certainly isn't happening here. You may not like my opinion, but I never stated or implied it was anything else.

Rooster, if you want to say that everything you have said so far is simply a statement of opinion and you fully understand that your opinion is no more important that anybody else's then I retract the statement about you being childish and offer sincere apologies (neither a strawman nor an ad hominem, by the way).

Thank you for lightening the tone a bit, I was getting a little too heavy. I believe this is a simple, honest misunderstanding. You're very kind to offer such an apology, and I want to respect that. But I don't know if I should accept your apology because I'm not sure I live up to your terms. I hope you won't find this rude, but I actually do value my own opinion over yours. Most people value their own opinion first, unless they're a saint or something. If you said gasoline was tasty I still wouldn't drink it. At the same time, I am sensitive to the repercussions to others and value their wishes even if I oppose them in action.

I hope you understand though, that from your statements up until this point in the thread, it's very hard to see that that is the case. As I've said, I think it best to take people at their word on the Internet.

'Your' story sucks ass. Get it? Stop pretending it doesn't suck or that it's bold and expressive and open to interpretation.

They should change it because it sucks.

(READ: They should change it because I (the customer) AM RIGHT when I say it sucks)

Exactly! I'd say that's a pretty good summing up of my position.

From my perspective, this is not a matter of taste but of insultingly shitty quality. The ending sucks and I want it changed.

These all seem pretty clear cut, but are obviously open to interpretation.

Those are my opinions. I don't understand the problem. I don't see how they can be construed as anything but opinions and it was never my intention to do so. I didn't draw attention to the fact that they are only opinions because why would I? If you treated my opinions as opinions from the start wouldn't this whole issue have been avoided? That's what I meant when I said "gum up the works".

As for your message to Megalodon, I do not believe my opinion is the only one that matters. But even if I did, I could charge you with the same because you haven't admitted mine is right either.

The difference being that I am not now, nor have I ever, demanding that a story be changed to suit my tastes. We are both absolutely entitled to our opinions, but that's about all. So, if Bioware decide to change things to suit you, then I am shit out of luck. I would be just as justified as you then in launching a campaign to get it changed back, but that way madness lies.

Oh boy, I wish you didn't use the word 'entitled'. That opens up this whole other... thing. Suffice it to say I think a purchaser should have a reasonable expectation of quality and relevant parties should provide it when possible. We can argue about what is reasonable in specific cases and I'm sure we will discuss this one, but I hope that much is not controversial. You also point out that one of us is shit out of luck whatever happens (at least potentially) and I admit I am not happy about it either. *Warning! Opinion Ahead! No One With Back Problems nor Expectant Mothers Should Proceed!* However, you would not be as justified as me because you would be campaigning to make something that was good into something that sucks.

The irony here is that all I'm doing is saying how I feel about this fucking game and it is you who cannot cope with a dissenting opinion.

I can absolutely cope with an dissenting opinion, right up until somebody tries to shove it down my throat. If we were merely discussing what we thought about the game then it would be a discussion of opinions, but that is clearly not what is going on here. Do you really think that that is what is happening?

In a sense, because my wishes are apparently never going to be realized anyway. But I get your point. I'm shoving my opinion down your throat and you're making me eat shit and like it. I just felt like you were accusing me of unfair things and I wasn't the bad guy of the piece more than anyone else.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

"This is for people that'll like it for what it is, so shut the fuck up."

Lol, why should I? Everything "is for people that'll like it for what it is, so shut the fuck up." The ending sucks, they should have rewritten it, this is a band-aid and it sucks too, nana-nana-boo-boo.

I approve. Was about the best way they could have presented it, really. I think Bioware can jump itself off the nearest bridge in general, but I'll still give them credit where it's due.

Really? Being condescending, dismissive, throwing out red herrings and feigning obtuseness for the fans was the best they could do? I'd hate to see their worst.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

"This is for people that'll like it for what it is, so shut the fuck up."

Lol, why should I? Everything "is for people that'll like it for what it is, so shut the fuck up." The ending sucks, they should have rewritten it, this is a band-aid and it sucks too, nana-nana-boo-boo.

I approve. Was about the best way they could have presented it, really. I think Bioware can jump itself off the nearest bridge in general, but I'll still give them credit where it's due.

Really? Being condescending, dismissive, throwing out red herrings and feigning obtuseness for the fans was the best they could do? I'd hate to see their worst.

And this is the kind of self-entitled nonsense that just makes me smile whenever they piss you guys off.

Don't like the game? Don't play it. You'll lose absolutely nothing except maybe some fricking childishness. No? Then you deserve to be annoyed, frankly.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

"This is for people that'll like it for what it is, so shut the fuck up."

Lol, why should I? Everything "is for people that'll like it for what it is, so shut the fuck up." The ending sucks, they should have rewritten it, this is a band-aid and it sucks too, nana-nana-boo-boo.

I approve. Was about the best way they could have presented it, really. I think Bioware can jump itself off the nearest bridge in general, but I'll still give them credit where it's due.

Really? Being condescending, dismissive, throwing out red herrings and feigning obtuseness for the fans was the best they could do? I'd hate to see their worst.

And this is the kind of self-entitled nonsense that just makes me smile whenever they piss you guys off.

Man of few words? You could at least tell us what the fuck that means, unless you don't know yourself. I myself could imply that your post proves what an *insult here* you are and walk off smugly and just hope people fill in the blanks with their own preconceptions, but I won't.

You're the one telling people to shut the fuck up. Any chance you're the one who is pissed off? If you want to call me entitled I don't really care to debate it, but I think you're only doing it to change the subject. "This is for people that'll like it for what it is" is a lame defense against criticism. Obviously it's meant to be liked, so what? And following up with "shut the fuck up" is lolworthy. Not only because it's juvenile, it's also just a funny way to end a sentence that sounded pretty sincere up to that point. Took me by surprise.

Don't like the game? Don't play it. You'll lose absolutely nothing except maybe some fricking childishness. No? Then you deserve to be annoyed, frankly.

You're changing the subject.

But if you must, "Don't play it" is the lamest evasion ever. It's like saying "Yea, it sucks like you wouldn't believe, but you just shouldn't talk about it and you also shouldn't criticize it or call for it's improvement because ???." So why talk about games at all? They should make it illegal or something.

The first post in this exchange began with you voicing your approval for me and my ilk to fuck shut the up (or something like that), so I'm not too worried how childish you may take me for. I literally opened with "nana-nana-boo-boo". So far you've told me to shut the fuck up, called me entitled, called me childish, delighted in my alleged misery, and told me I deserve to be annoyed. And you talk as if I were pissed and annoyed. Is it possible you are projecting your own pent up emotions? Do you want to talk about it?

 

[irishda]

This is pure histrionics but I'll run with it as best I can. From my perspective, this is not a matter of taste but of insultingly shitty quality. The ending sucks and I want it changed. I sympathize if you don't want it to change. I understand that you will be inconvenienced. But games get changed all the time for better or worse. Do you really think every developer that ever did that is a bigger dick than whatever? Give me a break. Sorry you don't want it changed but I do and that's that. Fortunately, you are perfectly free to purchase a different product that suits your tastes. In fact, I encourage it.

I'm gonna just cut to this cause this is what it essentially boils down to, plus it's kind of odd that you took my line almost verbatim and plugged it as if it justifies your opinion...

You... called me a dick. Are you suggesting there was a subtler meaning in your post? How was I supposed to take it?

From your post: you are perfectly free to purchase a different product that suits your tastes
From my post: rather than seeking out another product that suits your taste

Notice the similarity? You focused on the wrong line, and since you didn't notice the similarities, I'm wondering if you've even read my posts at all or just picked up the gist.

The million dollar question is: why is it encouraged for me to find different products that suit my tastes, but this particular one has to be changed for you? As I pointed out, you're demanding a product be changed to the detriment of others' enjoyment. You might be tempted to retort, "yes, but as it is, the product is detrimental to MY enjoyment." And once again the question must be raised as to why it's so important that this product especially must be enjoyable to you instead of you finding another. There exists numerous means for resale in this industry, so it's not really a question of money, unless you went digital, in which case lesson learned I hope.

You find another. I want this one changed. It is inadequate and requires fixing. This is not a matter of taste from my perspective, so you're not going to get anywhere with me no matter how many times you go down that road. You cannot blame me if I do not have a taste for things that suck.[/quote]
But why should someone abandon a pre-existing product in order to suit the wishes of someone who wants a different product in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense to just find a different product if that's what you want in the first place? That's the ridiculousness of the entire retake argument. It's made even more ridiculous because you feel this isn't a matter of taste, when that's exactly what it is. You feel you don't have a taste for things that suck, but it only sucks in the first place because you don't have a taste for it.

I really have to refer back to my original metaphor in the hopes to show you why people would feel offended by your opinion. It's kind of a dick move to latch onto a product you don't like and demand it's change, rather than seeking out another that you like. It's like breaking other kids' toys because it wasn't what you wanted.

The trouble with metaphors is they illustrate an idea but they don't prove a point. I only say that to avoid an unending circle of metaphors. That is yours and here is mine: This is a game breaking bug and I want it fixed but you refuse to allow it because you prefer your disc to function as a coaster.[/quote]
The idea was to highlight the dickishness of ruining something for others to make it better for you. Sometimes illumination helps with understanding a point.

It might be why the Retake people always felt so "abused" for merely expressing their opinion, cause their opinion realized meant others happiness would be endangered.

Or maybe it's because people dismiss them, swear at them and call them entitled and things like that. Every Mass Effect thread I've ever read has contained very civil critics of the ending and abusive critics of the 'Retakers'. They even invent clever names for them like "Massholes", so you can't convince me this is all on the Retakers (or whoever). Plus, you called me a dick. It's a little late to play innocent bystander now.

Basically your argument is my desires conflict with your own, and I am spoiling something you like. I'm not happy about that but I am perfectly prepared to accept it. Call me a dick all you want.

I'm not trying to play innocent. But I think I've highlighted several reasons why I called you a dick. And I'm not sure why you're shocked by that, or with why "Massholes" would exist. If you accept that you're spoiling something that's fun with others I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect people to react with hostility towards that.

I think we've both been clear on our arguments here and the understanding we're not gonna change anyone's mind.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

But if you must, "Don't play it" is the lamest evasion ever. It's like saying "Yea, it sucks like you wouldn't believe, but you just shouldn't talk about it and you also shouldn't criticize it or call for it's improvement because ???." So why talk about games at all? They should make it illegal or something.

The first post in this exchange began with you voicing your approval for me and my ilk to fuck shut the up (or something like that), so I'm not too worried how childish you may take me for. I literally opened with "nana-nana-boo-boo". So far you've told me to shut the fuck up, called me entitled, called me childish, delighted in my alleged misery, and told me I deserve to be annoyed. And you talk as if I were pissed and annoyed. Is it possible you are projecting your own pent up emotions? Do you want to talk about it?

I've been loving the latest game in my series, so I'm all smiles, actually. Plus it's given me an excuse to learn some of a new language! Learning is fun.

The tragically ironic thing is that I'm one of the most level-headed and even-tempered people you'll ever interact with; I just won't hesitate to tell you to quit whining as soon as I think you should. You should, by the way.

More seriously, even if I hated the aforementioned game, I'd get the fuck over it, because it's just a video game, christ. The one thing you've missed while combing through my post looking for every way you could perceive me as insulting you personally even though it has nothing to do with you personally (sounds dumb of you when it's put like that, doesn't it? Yes, you can put "dumb" on your list now) is that you'll be better off if you don't let something that ultimately has nothing tangible to do with you get your undies in a twist. Seriously.

You know what else is lame? Listening to you guys whine all the time because you didn't get the game you wanted, nor are you getting it later. Another one of my favorite series that had been around for over twenty years has recently been violently stuffed into the grave by the yahoos that made it as they give it and everyone who enjoyed it the middle finger, and you don't see me crying about it to a bunch of strangers who don't give a shit at every freaking opportunity, because it doesn't really matter. You didn't deserve anything, and you still don't now, outside of perhaps a mild slap on the back of the head. You're entitled only to what the people who made the thing wanted to give you, or didn't give you, whether you like it or not.

It sucks when a game you wanted to like doesn't live up to your expectations. I've wasted money on crap too. It's a real bummer. But while you're trying to garner some kind of satisfaction attempting to psycho analyze someone you know nothing about other than that they hurt your feelings a bit because they dared to tell you to suck it up, I'm shrugging, knowing that you and I will, against the ever-so-daunting odds, get over everything involved.

I will, anyway. You can pitch whatever theories you want about my inner turmoil and seething rage, but I'm the one who knows a video game not ending the way I wanted it to isn't grounds for getting upset, nor is some joker telling you to quit being a baby about it.

There, now you have a bunch of paragraphs of blunt-but-reasonable exposition. That'll teach you to invite people on the internet to talk about something, won't it?!

 

[tensorproduct]

Thank you for lightening the tone a bit, I was getting a little too heavy. I believe this is a simple, honest misunderstanding. You're very kind to offer such an apology, and I want to respect that.

And thank you for your thoughtful and polite response.

Those are my opinions. I don't understand the problem. I don't see how they can be construed as anything but opinions and it was never my intention to do so. I didn't draw attention to the fact that they are only opinions because why would I? If you treated my opinions as opinions from the start wouldn't this whole issue have been avoided? That's what I meant when I said "gum up the works".

As I said, I take people at their word. Unfortunately that can mean that I kind of expect a whole lot of prefacing and conditioning with platitudes like "as I see it", "in my opinion", and "from my studies in Guam I have this attitude". Frankly, it's long-winded and unpoetic, and it is unfair of me to inflict it upon everybody I communicate with on-line.

Maybe I have an unreasonably low opinion of humanity, but I really don't expect that most people do understand that their opinions are not indisputable fact that must be accepted by the rest of the world. As an example, look at ravenshrike's post about the ending being "objectively" awful.

I was intending to use your posts as another example of this type of idiocy. Again, apologies if I have misread you. I won't apologize for calling that view idiotic or childish, however.

Oh boy, I wish you didn't use the word 'entitled'. That opens up this whole other... thing.

Oh come on!! I was really careful to only use the "e" word when it was something to which I think we are both enti... we both have a reasonable right to expect.

Suffice it to say I think a purchaser should have a reasonable expectation of quality and relevant parties should provide it when possible. We can argue about what is reasonable in specific cases and I'm sure we will discuss this one, but I hope that much is not controversial.

But again, quality is an inherently subjective judgement. I'm not arguing about what is a reasonable expectation, but about what is quality. This isn't an issue about the fact that you didn't like it and I did, but about the fact that anybody might have liked it and hence any notion of "quality" cannot be considered as some sort of numerical grade where the game either receives a passing score or it doesn't.

*Warning! Opinion Ahead! No One With Back Problems nor Expectant Mothers Should Proceed!*

Heh, I suppose I deserve that.

I'm shoving my opinion down your throat and you're making me eat shit and like it.

I never said you had to like it. If you hate the ending, that's perfectly okay. You can hate it, and hate it, and hate it. But that hate doesn't deserve any more consideration than all the hate I've ever had for movies, books, and games that I think have wasted my time or insulted my intelligence. I moved on, and I think you should too.

 

[Mikeyfell]

So this is the creative director of Mass Effect saying the fans should all just make up their own ending if they're not satisfied.
Why didn't I think of that?

I'd have to tare out every story point at the roots and re start from the salted earth of "The end of Mass Effect 2" but yeah, my imagination will fix Mass Effect 3 because you can't count on Bioware to give a flying fuck any more can we.

 

[Jaeke]

Yeah... releasing it on the same day as Dawnguard. Who decided that would be a good idea?
I'm having to choose between my massively, massively-anticipated Dawnguard and fucking shit up Van Helsing-esque vampire style, or some extra cutscenes for a game I'm trying to forget about.
Not a particularly tough decision.

Only one of them will cost money

And one is 2 gygs the other is 500 megabytes.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

From your post: you are perfectly free to purchase a different product that suits your tastes
From my post: rather than seeking out another product that suits your taste

Notice the similarity? You focused on the wrong line, and since you didn't notice the similarities, I'm wondering if you've even read my posts at all or just picked up the gist.

The similarity was intentional. I have no idea what you're talking about here. Are you now saying you did call me a dick and this is your explanation of why I'm a dick? I'm confused. For future reference, people will generally focus on the line where you call them a dick. But I'm perfectly happy to let the whole thing drop. I was really taken by surprise but I'm not terribly worried about the whole, you know, 'dick' thing.

But why should someone abandon a pre-existing product in order to suit the wishes of someone who wants a different product in the first place?

BECAUSE IT SUCKS. Seriously, how many times?

Wouldn't it make more sense to just find a different product if that's what you want in the first place?

No. I want to play Mass Effect. Like you, if I wanted to play some other game I would.

That's the ridiculousness of the entire retake argument. It's made even more ridiculous because you feel this isn't a matter of taste, when that's exactly what it is. You feel you don't have a taste for things that suck, but it only sucks in the first place because you don't have a taste for it.

It is a matter of taste in a sense. But I was careful to point out that from my perspective this is a flawed product. I don't like Farmville but I don't consider it flawed. If you like the flaw, yes, it's a matter of taste I suppose. But I want the flaw fixed.

I want a game changed. They change all the time. All the time. It's not any more ridiculous than it is unusual. I used to think WoW was fun (I was young). Then they changed it. It became instanced-only PvP (virtually) and they killed the sense and practice of being at war with this 'honor system' crap. It spoiled the game for me and I quit. I know how you feel, but I think you're wildly exaggerating the scope of the crime you believe I'm committing because you don't like it in this one case. Maybe you think Blizzard was being just as ridiculous as I am, but I doubt you really believe that. I could go on all day listing changes to games, and you can't keep this up forever.

The idea was to highlight the dickishness of ruining something for others to make it better for you. Sometimes illumination helps with understanding a point.

That's what 'illuminate' means in this context. I figured we'd end up endlessly making metaphors about cars. I was just trying to avoid that gruesome fate. But to retort, I think it's pretty dickish to make me eat shit because you savor the flavor. I'm sorry I'm ruining the game for you by making it suck less, but I'm still going to go through with it.

I'm not trying to play innocent. But I think I've highlighted several reasons why I called you a dick. And I'm not sure why you're shocked by that, or with why "Massholes" would exist. If you accept that you're spoiling something that's fun with others I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect people to react with hostility towards that.

I think we've both been clear on our arguments here and the understanding we're not gonna change anyone's mind.

Ah, I see. So you feel justified in calling me a dick and you think people are correct to call Retakers things like "Massholes" because of the content of their message. Can you do me a favor and just confirm that you do in fact approve of these actions and feel they are justified one more time?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

But if you must, "Don't play it" is the lamest evasion ever. It's like saying "Yea, it sucks like you wouldn't believe, but you just shouldn't talk about it and you also shouldn't criticize it or call for it's improvement because ???." So why talk about games at all? They should make it illegal or something.

The first post in this exchange began with you voicing your approval for me and my ilk to fuck shut the up (or something like that), so I'm not too worried how childish you may take me for. I literally opened with "nana-nana-boo-boo". So far you've told me to shut the fuck up, called me entitled, called me childish, delighted in my alleged misery, and told me I deserve to be annoyed. And you talk as if I were pissed and annoyed. Is it possible you are projecting your own pent up emotions? Do you want to talk about it?

I've been loving the latest game in my series, so I'm all smiles, actually. Plus it's given me an excuse to learn some of a new language! Learning is fun.

The tragically ironic thing is that I'm one of the most level-headed and even-tempered people you'll ever interact with; I just won't hesitate to tell you to quit whining as soon as I think you should. You should, by the way.

More seriously, even if I hated the aforementioned game, I'd get the fuck over it, because it's just a video game, christ. The one thing you've missed while combing through my post looking for every way you could perceive me as insulting you personally even though it has nothing to do with you personally (sounds dumb of you when it's put like that, doesn't it? Yes, you can put "dumb" on your list now) is that you'll be better off if you don't let something that ultimately has nothing tangible to do with you get your undies in a twist. Seriously.

You know what else is lame? Listening to you guys whine all the time because you didn't get the game you wanted, nor are you getting it later. Another one of my favorite series that had been around for over twenty years has recently been violently stuffed into the grave by the yahoos that made it as they give it and everyone who enjoyed it the middle finger, and you don't see me crying about it to a bunch of strangers who don't give a shit at every freaking opportunity, because it doesn't really matter. You didn't deserve anything, and you still don't now, outside of perhaps a mild slap on the back of the head. You're entitled only to what the people who made the thing wanted to give you, or didn't give you, whether you like it or not.

It sucks when a game you wanted to like doesn't live up to your expectations. I've wasted money on crap too. It's a real bummer. But while you're trying to garner some kind of satisfaction attempting to psycho analyze someone you know nothing about other than that they hurt your feelings a bit because they dared to tell you to suck it up, I'm shrugging, knowing that you and I will, against the ever-so-daunting odds, get over everything involved.

I will, anyway. You can pitch whatever theories you want about my inner turmoil and seething rage, but I'm the one who knows a video game not ending the way I wanted it to isn't grounds for getting upset, nor is some joker telling you to quit being a baby about it.

There, now you have a bunch of paragraphs of blunt-but-reasonable exposition. That'll teach you to invite people on the internet to talk about something, won't it?!

Well I can certainly see you have no emotional investment in this. That's why when someone talks about something totally unrelated you lash out then deny it in a long post about how much you hate people who criticize shit you like. The ending sucked, people are allowed to criticize games, not everyone likes what you like, build a bridge and get over it.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

And thank you for your thoughtful and polite response.

As I said, I take people at their word. Unfortunately that can mean that I kind of expect a whole lot of prefacing and conditioning with platitudes like "as I see it", "in my opinion", and "from my studies in Guam I have this attitude". Frankly, it's long-winded and unpoetic, and it is unfair of me to inflict it upon everybody I communicate with on-line.

Maybe I have an unreasonably low opinion of humanity, but I really don't expect that most people do understand that their opinions are not indisputable fact that must be accepted by the rest of the world. As an example, look at ravenshrike's post about the ending being "objectively" awful.

I was intending to use your posts as another example of this type of idiocy. Again, apologies if I have misread you. I won't apologize for calling that view idiotic or childish, however.

I wouldn't expect you to apologize for that. I'm glad this was a simple misunderstanding.

Oh boy, I wish you didn't use the word 'entitled'. That opens up this whole other... thing.

Oh come on!! I was really careful to only use the "e" word when it was something to which I think we are both enti... we both have a reasonable right to expect.

Lol. I just saw the word 'entitled' and freaked out reflexively. I guess I have a lot to learn about trusting people.

But again, quality is an inherently subjective judgement. I'm not arguing about what is a reasonable expectation, but about what is quality. This isn't an issue about the fact that you didn't like it and I did, but about the fact that anybody might have liked it and hence any notion of "quality" cannot be considered as some sort of numerical grade where the game either receives a passing score or it doesn't.

Well, I agree and I disagree. I could grade quality numerically or as pass/fail. That is what most game reviewers do, for example. But my scale would not be a factual, scientific measurement. It would of course be only an expression of my opinion on something that is utterly subjective. That said, my opinions are sometimes harsh and unapologetic. =)

*Warning! Opinion Ahead! No One With Back Problems nor Expectant Mothers Should Proceed!*

Heh, I suppose I deserve that.

I couldn't resist, thanks for being a good sport lol. I also thought it would demonstrate I was serious about my opinions being opinions.

I'm shoving my opinion down your throat and you're making me eat shit and like it.

I never said you had to like it.

No, you didn't. Sorry. You only said I should not try to have it changed.

If you hate the ending, that's perfectly okay. You can hate it, and hate it, and hate it. But that hate doesn't deserve any more consideration than all the hate I've ever had for movies, books, and games that I think have wasted my time or insulted my intelligence. I moved on, and I think you should too.

I have no idea if my hate is more deserving than your hate. That would demand examination of specific cases and we may want to include a third party arbiter. But I just don't see why I shouldn't criticize Mass Effect 3. I've criticized media hundreds of years older than Mass Effect and no one told me to get over it or move on. I thought Pride and Prejudice lacked a real climax and my suggestion for fixing it was to kill off Jane. Nobody agrees with me but they don't tell me not to talk about it.

 

[irishda]

That's the ridiculousness of the entire retake argument. It's made even more ridiculous because you feel this isn't a matter of taste, when that's exactly what it is. You feel you don't have a taste for things that suck, but it only sucks in the first place because you don't have a taste for it.

It is a matter of taste in a sense. But I was careful to point out that from my perspective this is a flawed product. I don't like Farmville but I don't consider it flawed. If you like the flaw, yes, it's a matter of taste I suppose. But I want the flaw fixed.

Good god man, now you're just being dense. It's fucking relative. How is that escaping you? Just because from your perspective it's flawed doesn't mean other people see it the same way. That's why it is a matter of taste entirely; there's no "in a sense".

I want a game changed. They change all the time. All the time. It's not any more ridiculous than it is unusual. I used to think WoW was fun (I was young). Then they changed it. It became instanced-only PvP (virtually) and they killed the sense and practice of being at war with this 'honor system' crap. It spoiled the game for me and I quit. I know how you feel, but I think you're wildly exaggerating the scope of the crime you believe I'm committing because you don't like it in this one case. Maybe you think Blizzard was being just as ridiculous as I am, but I doubt you really believe that. I could go on all day listing changes to games, and you can't keep this up forever.

Oh yeah, I remember the Retake WoW movement, when they set up that charity to try to help convince Blizzard to change the game back. Lots of games get changed; mostly in mechanics and usually due to the diligence of the developers and some of the input of the players. With the one exception of Fallout 3; I've heard very little of games that retconned their own endings because of the demands of the players.

The idea was to highlight the dickishness of ruining something for others to make it better for you. Sometimes illumination helps with understanding a point.

That's what 'illuminate' means in this context. I figured we'd end up endlessly making metaphors about cars. I was just trying to avoid that gruesome fate. But to retort, I think it's pretty dickish to make me eat shit because you savor the flavor. I'm sorry I'm ruining the game for you by making it suck less, but I'm still going to go through with it.

That line. That right there is the problem. Once again, I can't help but feel that you think it objectively sucks, and you're trying to save the players from their own stupidity by giving a game that doesn't suck. Not to mention no one's making you eat shit. You're own stubbornness on playing a game you hate is what's making you eat shit. That doesn't make us dicks, that just makes you stubborn, apparently self-destructively so.

I'm not trying to play innocent. But I think I've highlighted several reasons why I called you a dick. And I'm not sure why you're shocked by that, or with why "Massholes" would exist. If you accept that you're spoiling something that's fun with others I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect people to react with hostility towards that.

I think we've both been clear on our arguments here and the understanding we're not gonna change anyone's mind.

Ah, I see. So you feel justified in calling me a dick and you think people are correct to call Retakers things like "Massholes" because of the content of their message. Can you do me a favor and just confirm that you do in fact approve of these actions and feel they are justified one more time?

If you feel ruining others fun isn't going to be met with hostility than I'm not sure if it's a complete lack of empathy on your part or naivety. People are gonna criticize you the same way the Retakers are criticizing Bioware. You know why? You what they have in common? Because you're trying to ruin the fans fun the same way Bioware ruined the Retakers fun. So don't act like people are being "so unfair" in their hostilities just because of an opinion. RME was more than just people expressing an opinion, it was people actively lobbying for a change.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Good god man, now you're just being dense. It's fucking relative. How is that escaping you? Just because from your perspective it's flawed doesn't mean other people see it the same way. That's why it is a matter of taste entirely; there's no "in a sense".

You are not grasping the subtleties of my argument. From your perspective this is chocolate and vanilla (stop me if I'm wrong). From my perspective, this is a car that runs vs. a car that doesn't run. It is not escaping me that your perspective is different, I just don't care. Well, I do care. But not enough to change my mind.

Oh yeah, I remember the Retake WoW movement, when they set up that charity to try to help convince Blizzard to change the game back. Lots of games get changed; mostly in mechanics and usually due to the diligence of the developers and some of the input of the players. With the one exception of Fallout 3; I've heard very little of games that retconned their own endings because of the demands of the players.

But you have heard of it. So if I follow you, you're saying it's OK to change the game's mechanics, but not OK to change the story. And it's OK to change the game due to "the diligence of the developers and some of the input of the players" but not due to "the demands of the players". Doesn't that sound a bit arbitrary? Your parameters for when it is not OK to change a game are conveniently narrow. And why did we go through that whole song-and-dance about ruining things for people and breaking their toys if it's all OK after all? I mean before it was all tears and heartache and now you're splitting hairs about exactly how a game gets changed and even taking motivation into account. It just seems suspiciously convenient that it's OK to change games except in the one way that I want this one changed for no reason, wouldn't you say?

Are you trying to make an unfavorable comment about my comparison of changing WoW to changing Mass Effect 3? Something about "Retake WoW" and "charity"? I'm really not being intentionally thick. I think you and I have a way of talking past each other.

I'm sorry I'm ruining the game for you by making it suck less, but I'm still going to go through with it.

That line. That right there is the problem. Once again, I can't help but feel that you think it objectively sucks, and you're trying to save the players from their own stupidity by giving a game that doesn't suck.

I don't know what to tell you. Try not to feel that way I guess. Just take my opinion for what it is and see how things go. It is true that if you like the ending to Mass Effect 3 I think you like something that is insulting both to your intellect and you as a customer. And I would like them to fix it. If that offends you, sorry.

Not to mention no one's making you eat shit. You're own stubbornness on playing a game you hate is what's making you eat shit. That doesn't make us dicks, that just makes you stubborn, apparently self-destructively so.

I think Mass Effect 3 isn't perfect so I'm self-destructive? I think you have misjudged how I feel about the whole thing.

If you feel ruining others fun isn't going to be met with hostility than I'm not sure if it's a complete lack of empathy on your part or naivety. People are gonna criticize you the same way the Retakers are criticizing Bioware. You know why? You what they have in common? Because you're trying to ruin the fans fun the same way Bioware ruined the Retakers fun. So don't act like people are being "so unfair" in their hostilities just because of an opinion. RME was more than just people expressing an opinion, it was people actively lobbying for a change.

I get it, they send one of ours to the hospital we send one of theirs to the morgue. But I don't understand what slight you feel has been committed against you because apparently ruining people's fun is fine and not a big deal. Well, fine when they're doing it to me and not you, apparently.

If you think this situation warrants hostility and verbal abuse from anyone, I disagree. But I only brought it up in the first place to demonstrate that the most abusive party by far in this whole thing has been those who bash the critics. If you're fine with that then fair enough. I wasn't really speaking to you specifically so much as pointing it out for all to see.