BioWare Knows It Can't Please Everyone

[KrossBillNye]

You know what? I liked the free extended-cut content. EAWare gave me an ending that I very much thought was the most canon piece yet.

I am of course referring to the reject option. Best one of them all yet.

 

[tensorproduct]

I have no idea if my hate is more deserving than your hate. That would demand examination of specific cases and we may want to include a third party arbiter. But I just don't see why I shouldn't criticize Mass Effect 3. I've criticized media hundreds of years older than Mass Effect and no one told me to get over it or move on. I thought Pride and Prejudice lacked a real climax and my suggestion for fixing it was to kill off Jane. Nobody agrees with me but they don't tell me not to talk about it.

I never said you shouldn't criticize the Mass Effect 3. As far as I know, nobody has said that (okay, somebody somewhere probably has, but nobody in this thread). There is a difference between saying that you don't like something, explaining why you don't like it, and demanding that it be changed until you do like it.

It is perfectly okay for you not to like something. It is not rudeness or an attack on the part of the developers to release a game that you dislike, or for them not to take on board every criticism you have of said game. I understand that you want to be satisfied with the finale of a several year long journey, but disappointments happen.

Wait.

You think Jane should have died at the end of Pride and Prejudice? Wow. I have never heard anyone say that. But if we were both around in the early 19th century, would you have written to news papers about the issue, would you have called Jane Austen names and accused her of being rude to her readers for not making the changes that you think should be made, would you have donated money to an orphanage in an effort to pressure her into changing it?

By the way, if you like P&P there is an awesome adaptation of it running on YouTube at the moment: http://youtu.be/KisuGP2lcPs

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I have no idea if my hate is more deserving than your hate. That would demand examination of specific cases and we may want to include a third party arbiter. But I just don't see why I shouldn't criticize Mass Effect 3. I've criticized media hundreds of years older than Mass Effect and no one told me to get over it or move on. I thought Pride and Prejudice lacked a real climax and my suggestion for fixing it was to kill off Jane. Nobody agrees with me but they don't tell me not to talk about it.

I never said you shouldn't criticize the Mass Effect 3. As far as I know, nobody has said that (okay, somebody somewhere probably has, but nobody in this thread). There is a difference between saying that you don't like something, explaining why you don't like it, and demanding that it be changed until you do like it.

It is perfectly okay for you not to like something. It is not rudeness or an attack on the part of the developers to release a game that you dislike, or for them not to take on board every criticism you have of said game. I understand that you want to be satisfied with the finale of a several year long journey, but disappointments happen.

Wait.

You think Jane should have died at the end of Pride and Prejudice? Wow. I have never heard anyone say that. But if we were both around in the early 19th century, would you have written to news papers about the issue, would you have called Jane Austen names and accused her of being rude to her readers for not making the changes that you think should be made, would you have donated money to an orphanage in an effort to pressure her into changing it?

By the way, if you like P&P there is an awesome adaptation of it running on YouTube at the moment: http://youtu.be/KisuGP2lcPs

Several people in this thread have said I (or those who share my opinion) shouldn't criticize it and you yourself told me to move on. What does that mean? Move on from what to what?

I think Bioware's treatment of the fans after the fact was rude to the fans and bad for gamers generally. Releasing a game I dislike is not rude, but releasing one that offends the intellect and my patience as a customer might be. I get that disappointments happen and you would prefer I let this be one of them, but I feel perfectly justified arguing for them to fix that shit. I just don't see why I should let this go just cuz. This is not a typical run-of-the-mill slip-up. This is a "fuck you, franchising, marketing and add-on sales are so important we don't even care if the game is good, and we're also going to shit all over you when you call us out on our bullshit" slip-up. Also, misleading advertising, and "everybody's doing it" is not a good excuse. Even Halo 2 wasn't that insulting. More than anything I'm indignant that people are letting Bioware/EA get away with this bullshit and even defending it.

I wouldn't have done any of those things to Jane Austen because her book is still pretty good and possesses serious artistic merit from start to finish. It's not a cynical, slimy, money-grubbing cock-slap to the face. And entirely apart from her work, she wasn't rude as far as I know. I never said it was rude for Bioware or anyone to not make changes because the fans want them in-and-of-itself. I want to be clear that when I call Bioware rude and things like that, it's usually about their behavior in response to the controversy. If Jane Austen was a total jerk I'd call her out, sure. I probably would not have pressured her to change it because she obviously had the best of intentions and I really don't care that much about it. But I'm definitely not against it in principle. That shit happens to books too, you know. Like I think Clockwork Orange has more impact as a cautionary tale (the American version) even though it was written as a redemption story. That was an editor choice not a fan choice, but I don't think that's an important distinction.

This is how I would write P&P, by the way. I understand if you don't care lol.

Spoiler

See, Pride and Prejudice didn't have much of a climax. It had two kind-of-climaxes and then just kind of winded down. My suggestion would be to kill Jane, but not at the very end. Her unexpected demise would set the stage for the intense emotional climax where Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth have both lost friends and really need help but really clash. Darcy loses Bingley to grief and the guilt he feels over misleading Bingley about Jane leads him to repent and renounce his pride. Elizabeth discovers Darcy's concern for his friend is more deep and genuine than she thought possible. Later, they would overcome their respective faults (you know- pride and prejudice) during the resolution and falling action. I read the book in school and it wasn't the torture I thought it would be. People talk about it like it's some romance novel they sell at Publix, but turns out it's more about overcoming- well you know.

Thanks for the link, but I probably won't get into it too much. I'm not like a superfan, that was just the most clear example I had of something old that was good but (in my opinion) could improve.

 

[tensorproduct]

Several people in this thread have said I (or those who share my opinion) shouldn't criticize it and you yourself told me to move on. What does that mean? Move on from what to what?

I can't be bothered to review the whole thread at this point, but I am fairly sure that nobody said you shouldn't criticize the game. Certainly I didn't, so it's not a point that I'm going to defend. If you want to criticize the game, that's great. It can help you understand what you do and do not like about stories, and others may find it interesting as well. You'll know not to trust Bioware to make games you enjoy. You might even be inspired to write your own stories that don't fall into the problems that ME3 had for you.

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

I think Bioware's treatment of the fans after the fact was rude to the fans and bad for gamers generally.

From what I saw, Bioware bent over backwards to be polite to the fans after the controversy broke. I don't know what rudeness to which you refer, unless you consider simply not giving in to every demand made of them rudeness (which it isn't).

Releasing a game I dislike is not rude, but releasing one that offends the intellect and my patience as a customer might be. I get that disappointments happen and you would prefer I let this be one of them, but I feel perfectly justified arguing for them to fix that shit. I just don't see why I should let this go just cuz. This is not a typical run-of-the-mill slip-up. This is a "fuck you, franchising, marketing and add-on sales are so important we don't even care if the game is good, and we're also going to shit all over you when you call us out on our bullshit" slip-up. Also, misleading advertising, and "everybody's doing it" is not a good excuse. Even Halo 2 wasn't that insulting. More than anything I'm indignant that people are letting Bioware/EA get away with this bullshit and even defending it.

This is all just your opinion of the quality of the game. As you've already asserted that you understand that your opinion is purely subjective, I don't see why you keep on bringing it up.

This is how I would write P&P, by the way. I understand if you don't care lol.

Spoiler

See, Pride and Prejudice didn't have much of a climax. It had two kind-of-climaxes and then just kind of winded down. My suggestion would be to kill Jane, but not at the very end. Her unexpected demise would set the stage for the intense emotional climax where Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth have both lost friends and really need help but really clash. Darcy loses Bingley to grief and the guilt he feels over misleading Bingley about Jane leads him to repent and renounce his pride. Elizabeth discovers Darcy's concern for his friend is more deep and genuine than she thought possible. Later, they would overcome their respective faults (you know- pride and prejudice) during the resolution and falling action. I read the book in school and it wasn't the torture I thought it would be. People talk about it like it's some romance novel they sell at Publix, but turns out it's more about overcoming- well you know.

That is, in my opinion, really bad. If that was how Pride & Prejudice ended, I would not like the book at all. And having realized that I did not like the book, I would be content not to like it and then I would move on. I would not decide that the story needs to change in order to please me, especially if there are people who liked that (awful, awful) ending and there a nearly unlimited number of other books, movies and games out there for me to explore.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I can't be bothered to review the whole thread at this point, but I am fairly sure that nobody said you shouldn't criticize the game. Certainly I didn't, so it's not a point that I'm going to defend. If you want to criticize the game, that's great. It can help you understand what you do and do not like about stories, and others may find it interesting as well. You'll know not to trust Bioware to make games you enjoy. You might even be inspired to write your own stories that don't fall into the problems that ME3 had for you.

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

From what I saw, Bioware bent over backwards to be polite to the fans after the controversy broke. I don't know what rudeness to which you refer, unless you consider simply not giving in to every demand made of them rudeness (which it isn't).

Haven't I been clear that's not the case? How many times are you going to tell me that not giving in to customer demands is not inherently rude? I'm starting to think you're trying to pigeonhole me. Read the article at the beginning of this thread for an example of rudeness. Far from bending over backwards to please fans, they refused to address the issue far too long, they kept fans in the dark after that far too long, they have remained dismissive and condescending and aloof towards their customers and critics while sitting atop their tower of pretentious horseshit. The ending was a complete debacle that was only topped by their PR afterward. Maybe you don't feel the sting of dismissal and condescension because you have taken sides against the target.

This is all just your opinion of the quality of the game. As you've already asserted that you understand that your opinion is purely subjective, I don't see why you keep on bringing it up.

I'm beginning to think 'subjective' doesn't mean what you think it means.

That is, in my opinion, really bad. If that was how Pride & Prejudice ended, I would not like the book at all. And having realized that I did not like the book, I would be content not to like it and then I would move on. I would not decide that the story needs to change in order to please me, especially if there are people who liked that (awful, awful) ending and there a nearly unlimited number of other books, movies and games out there for me to explore.

Oh fuck you lol. (Just kidding). It's the same ending except Jane dies for Christ sake! And if I were in that position, that is what I would do, too.

 

[tensorproduct]

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

You accuse me of calling you names that I never did and then say I'm projecting?! Seriously? Fuck this, I'm out.

Edit: sorry, that was overly rude.

I am going to bail on this conversation though, it's safe to say we're not going to come to any sort of agreement. I basically cannot at all sympathize with your position: you admit that it's just your opinion, but feel personally insulted if the developers don't do everything they can to please you, everybody else be damned.

 

[Th37thTrump3t]

Honestly? They would've been better off just leaving the ending alone and trying to bury this whole said affair.

You gotta give them credit for trying though... Most devs would just be like "Well if you don't like the ending then fuck you, we don't give two shits."

 

[Zeraki]

My time of being angry about the endings came and went a while ago(seriously, how do some of you people stay angry so long? It's exhausting), and despite the fact that the Extended Cut doesn't do much to fix some of the more lore breaking moments(Starchild), I at least got a sense of emotional closure that I wanted all along. I don't care that Shepard dies, I just wanted to know that everything I had done wasn't in vain, as the original endings made it seem.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

You accuse me of calling you names that I never did and then say I'm projecting?! Seriously? Fuck this, I'm out.

Edit: sorry, that was overly rude.

I am going to bail on this conversation though, it's safe to say we're not going to come to any sort of agreement. I basically cannot at all sympathize with your position: you admit that it's just your opinion, but feel personally insulted if the developers don't do everything they can to please you, everybody else be damned.

I didn't think I was writing anything rude, I'm sorry. I was exaggerating when I said "whiny butthurt obsessive". I didn't realize you would take it so hard. You didn't use those words but that was my interpretation of your description of a love-sick obsessive, and then I just exaggerated it. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Sorry. I hope you will believe that any offense given was not intentional.

I think you misunderstand what 'opinion' and 'subjective' mean. I also think "feel personally insulted if the developers don't do everything they can to please you" is a straw man. I have been more than clear that is not my argument. And just because what I'm doing won't please everyone on the planet doesn't mean I'm saying "everybody else be damned". That's pretty hyperbolic.

I'm sorry you cannot sympathize with my position because I sympathize with yours. We were never going to come to an agreement but an understanding would have been nice.

EDIT:Since you don't seem to be planning a response at this point, I would like to explain what I said. You wrote the following:

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

I have accepted that I don't like the ending. And I'll stop thinking about it when you do. You replied to the same thread I did so I guess that makes you just as obsessive, like after a horrible break-up months or years after it happens. You need to let it go, dude. The ending blows goats, you'll be much happier when you accept it and move on.

I mean what emotions do you think I'm experiencing over this? However diplomatic you may have intended it, the person you are describing sounds like a whiny little ***** to me. If that is not what you meant feel free to elaborate. I don't feel that way and I can't imagine why you think I do. I can only assume you made it up and you just imagine anyone who would make my argument must be a whiny little ***** like the one you described. So I feel I was justified in asking you to stop assuming I had those ridiculous emotions.

 

[Mage of Doom]

I can't be bothered to review the whole thread at this point, but I am fairly sure that nobody said you shouldn't criticize the game. Certainly I didn't, so it's not a point that I'm going to defend. If you want to criticize the game, that's great. It can help you understand what you do and do not like about stories, and others may find it interesting as well. You'll know not to trust Bioware to make games you enjoy. You might even be inspired to write your own stories that don't fall into the problems that ME3 had for you.

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

From what I saw, Bioware bent over backwards to be polite to the fans after the controversy broke. I don't know what rudeness to which you refer, unless you consider simply not giving in to every demand made of them rudeness (which it isn't).

Haven't I been clear that's not the case? How many times are you going to tell me that not giving in to customer demands is not inherently rude? I'm starting to think you're trying to pigeonhole me. Read the article at the beginning of this thread for an example of rudeness. Far from bending over backwards to please fans, they refused to address the issue far too long, they kept fans in the dark after that far too long, they have remained dismissive and condescending and aloof towards their customers and critics while sitting atop their tower of pretentious horseshit. The ending was a complete debacle that was only topped by their PR afterward. Maybe you don't feel the sting of dismissal and condescension because you have taken sides against the target.

This is all just your opinion of the quality of the game. As you've already asserted that you understand that your opinion is purely subjective, I don't see why you keep on bringing it up.

I'm beginning to think 'subjective' doesn't mean what you think it means.

That is, in my opinion, really bad. If that was how Pride & Prejudice ended, I would not like the book at all. And having realized that I did not like the book, I would be content not to like it and then I would move on. I would not decide that the story needs to change in order to please me, especially if there are people who liked that (awful, awful) ending and there a nearly unlimited number of other books, movies and games out there for me to explore.

Oh fuck you lol. (Just kidding). It's the same ending except Jane dies for Christ sake! And if I were in that position, that is what I would do, too.

After having read EVERYTHING you've posted on here, I can tell you that your opinion on something is not fact, for I enjoyed the endings and did not see any plot holes after the DLC came out. You're just obsessing pathetically over something you didn't like because you have to have everything your way. Like the captcha of this post, you're a 'namby-pamby'.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

After having read EVERYTHING you've posted on here, I can tell you that your opinion on something is not fact, for I enjoyed the endings and did not see any plot holes after the DLC came out. You're just obsessing pathetically over something you didn't like because you have to have everything your way. Like the captcha of this post, you're a 'namby-pamby'.

Opinions are not facts? Alert the Pentagon!

SO WHAT? What does everybody think they are accomplishing by stating the super obvious? Next you'll tell me up is not down like it's a revelation. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

It sucks and they should have fixed it. Oh, and they should have handled their PR non-shittily. Witness the hideous depths of my obsession! How will I carry ooooooooon!

You're obsessing pathetically over people not agreeing with you on the internet. You can't eat- you can't sleep- what oh what are you to do?????

 

[JomBob]

When was the last time an audience demanded that a book be rewritten because the ending was bad? When was the last time an audience demanded that a movie be remade because they didn't like the ending? When was the last time a book or movie actually WAS remade because of demands from the audience?

Funny you should ask that, because it was the Mass Effect novel Mass Effect: Deception by William C. Dietz.

Story here [http://kotaku.com/5882185/bioware-to-patch-error+laden-mass-effect-novel-in-response-to-fan-uproar]

Error list [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/preview?pli=1]

If you want a more classical example then I refer you to Little Women. I am given to understand that the fans were avowedly Jo x Laurie but the author refused to make that pairing due to her own life experiences.

 

[Erttheking]

I know you can't please all of your fan base Bioware but as one person (I forget who) once said, it's better to please 90% of your fan base rather than just 5%

 

[Mage of Doom]

I know you can't please all of your fan base Bioware but as one person (I forget who) once said, it's better to please 90% of your fan base rather than just 5%

Just because you're louder doesn't mean there are more of you.

 

[Erttheking]

I know you can't please all of your fan base Bioware but as one person (I forget who) once said, it's better to please 90% of your fan base rather than just 5%

Just because you're louder doesn't mean there are more of you.

Do I need to point out that poll on the Bioware social forums (the website dedicated to Bioware games) where 90% of the voters said that they hated the ending? Or am I being too entitled?

 

[crazyrabbits]

I think this whole EC business has (hopefully) taught Bioware not to underestimate its fanbase. Prior to the release of 3, they had a fanbase that even in spite of its missteps (DAII, I'm looking at you) was willing to fork over $70-80 blindly for a new installment of a series.

Now, the fans who pushed for an ending that made sense are being called "entitled", in spite of the fact that the EC is material that should have been in the game in the first place. The same thing happened with the Fallout 3 ending - the gaming media at large just doesn't get that you alienate your readers (and prove that you're just saying things for the developer kickbacks) when you support lazy or shoddy writing, especially in the ending of a game. Just because they released new content three months later doesn't diminish the fact that the game was a rushed, bug-filled mess that concluded on a pessimistic and downbeat note. Most people who defend it rationalize it by either believing the Indoctrination Theory (and admitting the end of the trilogy never happened) or ignoring the rest of the problems prevalent throughout the game so they can focus their hatred on the ending.

I mean, you can't get negative press like Bioware did over the last three months. When you have CNN, Forbes and the New Yorker calling you out for handling the situation unprofessionally, you know you've got a problem. You can't "take back" the 75,000+ people who voted in polls and complained en masse (a sample size, by the way, that is impossible to get in this day and age, and goes far beyond just the Bioware Social Network). This whole situation was like nothing else I'd ever seen before in terms of release controversy. The only example I can think of that comes close is the Daikatana marketing controversy and subsequent release.

I'm at the point now where I'm not so willing to buy a Bioware game on good faith alone. I'll check out the reviews and wait until the game is in the used market before springing for it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

No Bioware, you cannot please everyone. Nobody can. Even the best-made and well-received games have detractors. Though perhaps you should have did what you set out to do when you started ME1, and made the ending where the players' cumulative choices mattered.

But perhaps that could never happen in the first place.
I'm pretty sure EA would have busted your balls for trying that because it doesn't conform to their system of marketing-driven-design.