BioWare Knows It Can't Please Everyone

[Jaeke]

Yeah... releasing it on the same day as Dawnguard. Who decided that would be a good idea?
I'm having to choose between my massively, massively-anticipated Dawnguard and fucking shit up Van Helsing-esque vampire style, or some extra cutscenes for a game I'm trying to forget about.
Not a particularly tough decision.

Only one of them will cost money

And one is 2 gygs the other is 500 megabytes.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

From your post: you are perfectly free to purchase a different product that suits your tastes
From my post: rather than seeking out another product that suits your taste

Notice the similarity? You focused on the wrong line, and since you didn't notice the similarities, I'm wondering if you've even read my posts at all or just picked up the gist.

The similarity was intentional. I have no idea what you're talking about here. Are you now saying you did call me a dick and this is your explanation of why I'm a dick? I'm confused. For future reference, people will generally focus on the line where you call them a dick. But I'm perfectly happy to let the whole thing drop. I was really taken by surprise but I'm not terribly worried about the whole, you know, 'dick' thing.

But why should someone abandon a pre-existing product in order to suit the wishes of someone who wants a different product in the first place?

BECAUSE IT SUCKS. Seriously, how many times?

Wouldn't it make more sense to just find a different product if that's what you want in the first place?

No. I want to play Mass Effect. Like you, if I wanted to play some other game I would.

That's the ridiculousness of the entire retake argument. It's made even more ridiculous because you feel this isn't a matter of taste, when that's exactly what it is. You feel you don't have a taste for things that suck, but it only sucks in the first place because you don't have a taste for it.

It is a matter of taste in a sense. But I was careful to point out that from my perspective this is a flawed product. I don't like Farmville but I don't consider it flawed. If you like the flaw, yes, it's a matter of taste I suppose. But I want the flaw fixed.

I want a game changed. They change all the time. All the time. It's not any more ridiculous than it is unusual. I used to think WoW was fun (I was young). Then they changed it. It became instanced-only PvP (virtually) and they killed the sense and practice of being at war with this 'honor system' crap. It spoiled the game for me and I quit. I know how you feel, but I think you're wildly exaggerating the scope of the crime you believe I'm committing because you don't like it in this one case. Maybe you think Blizzard was being just as ridiculous as I am, but I doubt you really believe that. I could go on all day listing changes to games, and you can't keep this up forever.

The idea was to highlight the dickishness of ruining something for others to make it better for you. Sometimes illumination helps with understanding a point.

That's what 'illuminate' means in this context. I figured we'd end up endlessly making metaphors about cars. I was just trying to avoid that gruesome fate. But to retort, I think it's pretty dickish to make me eat shit because you savor the flavor. I'm sorry I'm ruining the game for you by making it suck less, but I'm still going to go through with it.

I'm not trying to play innocent. But I think I've highlighted several reasons why I called you a dick. And I'm not sure why you're shocked by that, or with why "Massholes" would exist. If you accept that you're spoiling something that's fun with others I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect people to react with hostility towards that.

I think we've both been clear on our arguments here and the understanding we're not gonna change anyone's mind.

Ah, I see. So you feel justified in calling me a dick and you think people are correct to call Retakers things like "Massholes" because of the content of their message. Can you do me a favor and just confirm that you do in fact approve of these actions and feel they are justified one more time?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

But if you must, "Don't play it" is the lamest evasion ever. It's like saying "Yea, it sucks like you wouldn't believe, but you just shouldn't talk about it and you also shouldn't criticize it or call for it's improvement because ???." So why talk about games at all? They should make it illegal or something.

The first post in this exchange began with you voicing your approval for me and my ilk to fuck shut the up (or something like that), so I'm not too worried how childish you may take me for. I literally opened with "nana-nana-boo-boo". So far you've told me to shut the fuck up, called me entitled, called me childish, delighted in my alleged misery, and told me I deserve to be annoyed. And you talk as if I were pissed and annoyed. Is it possible you are projecting your own pent up emotions? Do you want to talk about it?

I've been loving the latest game in my series, so I'm all smiles, actually. Plus it's given me an excuse to learn some of a new language! Learning is fun.

The tragically ironic thing is that I'm one of the most level-headed and even-tempered people you'll ever interact with; I just won't hesitate to tell you to quit whining as soon as I think you should. You should, by the way.

More seriously, even if I hated the aforementioned game, I'd get the fuck over it, because it's just a video game, christ. The one thing you've missed while combing through my post looking for every way you could perceive me as insulting you personally even though it has nothing to do with you personally (sounds dumb of you when it's put like that, doesn't it? Yes, you can put "dumb" on your list now) is that you'll be better off if you don't let something that ultimately has nothing tangible to do with you get your undies in a twist. Seriously.

You know what else is lame? Listening to you guys whine all the time because you didn't get the game you wanted, nor are you getting it later. Another one of my favorite series that had been around for over twenty years has recently been violently stuffed into the grave by the yahoos that made it as they give it and everyone who enjoyed it the middle finger, and you don't see me crying about it to a bunch of strangers who don't give a shit at every freaking opportunity, because it doesn't really matter. You didn't deserve anything, and you still don't now, outside of perhaps a mild slap on the back of the head. You're entitled only to what the people who made the thing wanted to give you, or didn't give you, whether you like it or not.

It sucks when a game you wanted to like doesn't live up to your expectations. I've wasted money on crap too. It's a real bummer. But while you're trying to garner some kind of satisfaction attempting to psycho analyze someone you know nothing about other than that they hurt your feelings a bit because they dared to tell you to suck it up, I'm shrugging, knowing that you and I will, against the ever-so-daunting odds, get over everything involved.

I will, anyway. You can pitch whatever theories you want about my inner turmoil and seething rage, but I'm the one who knows a video game not ending the way I wanted it to isn't grounds for getting upset, nor is some joker telling you to quit being a baby about it.

There, now you have a bunch of paragraphs of blunt-but-reasonable exposition. That'll teach you to invite people on the internet to talk about something, won't it?!

Well I can certainly see you have no emotional investment in this. That's why when someone talks about something totally unrelated you lash out then deny it in a long post about how much you hate people who criticize shit you like. The ending sucked, people are allowed to criticize games, not everyone likes what you like, build a bridge and get over it.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

And thank you for your thoughtful and polite response.

As I said, I take people at their word. Unfortunately that can mean that I kind of expect a whole lot of prefacing and conditioning with platitudes like "as I see it", "in my opinion", and "from my studies in Guam I have this attitude". Frankly, it's long-winded and unpoetic, and it is unfair of me to inflict it upon everybody I communicate with on-line.

Maybe I have an unreasonably low opinion of humanity, but I really don't expect that most people do understand that their opinions are not indisputable fact that must be accepted by the rest of the world. As an example, look at ravenshrike's post about the ending being "objectively" awful.

I was intending to use your posts as another example of this type of idiocy. Again, apologies if I have misread you. I won't apologize for calling that view idiotic or childish, however.

I wouldn't expect you to apologize for that. I'm glad this was a simple misunderstanding.

Oh boy, I wish you didn't use the word 'entitled'. That opens up this whole other... thing.

Oh come on!! I was really careful to only use the "e" word when it was something to which I think we are both enti... we both have a reasonable right to expect.

Lol. I just saw the word 'entitled' and freaked out reflexively. I guess I have a lot to learn about trusting people.

But again, quality is an inherently subjective judgement. I'm not arguing about what is a reasonable expectation, but about what is quality. This isn't an issue about the fact that you didn't like it and I did, but about the fact that anybody might have liked it and hence any notion of "quality" cannot be considered as some sort of numerical grade where the game either receives a passing score or it doesn't.

Well, I agree and I disagree. I could grade quality numerically or as pass/fail. That is what most game reviewers do, for example. But my scale would not be a factual, scientific measurement. It would of course be only an expression of my opinion on something that is utterly subjective. That said, my opinions are sometimes harsh and unapologetic. =)

*Warning! Opinion Ahead! No One With Back Problems nor Expectant Mothers Should Proceed!*

Heh, I suppose I deserve that.

I couldn't resist, thanks for being a good sport lol. I also thought it would demonstrate I was serious about my opinions being opinions.

I'm shoving my opinion down your throat and you're making me eat shit and like it.

I never said you had to like it.

No, you didn't. Sorry. You only said I should not try to have it changed.

If you hate the ending, that's perfectly okay. You can hate it, and hate it, and hate it. But that hate doesn't deserve any more consideration than all the hate I've ever had for movies, books, and games that I think have wasted my time or insulted my intelligence. I moved on, and I think you should too.

I have no idea if my hate is more deserving than your hate. That would demand examination of specific cases and we may want to include a third party arbiter. But I just don't see why I shouldn't criticize Mass Effect 3. I've criticized media hundreds of years older than Mass Effect and no one told me to get over it or move on. I thought Pride and Prejudice lacked a real climax and my suggestion for fixing it was to kill off Jane. Nobody agrees with me but they don't tell me not to talk about it.

 

[irishda]

That's the ridiculousness of the entire retake argument. It's made even more ridiculous because you feel this isn't a matter of taste, when that's exactly what it is. You feel you don't have a taste for things that suck, but it only sucks in the first place because you don't have a taste for it.

It is a matter of taste in a sense. But I was careful to point out that from my perspective this is a flawed product. I don't like Farmville but I don't consider it flawed. If you like the flaw, yes, it's a matter of taste I suppose. But I want the flaw fixed.

Good god man, now you're just being dense. It's fucking relative. How is that escaping you? Just because from your perspective it's flawed doesn't mean other people see it the same way. That's why it is a matter of taste entirely; there's no "in a sense".

I want a game changed. They change all the time. All the time. It's not any more ridiculous than it is unusual. I used to think WoW was fun (I was young). Then they changed it. It became instanced-only PvP (virtually) and they killed the sense and practice of being at war with this 'honor system' crap. It spoiled the game for me and I quit. I know how you feel, but I think you're wildly exaggerating the scope of the crime you believe I'm committing because you don't like it in this one case. Maybe you think Blizzard was being just as ridiculous as I am, but I doubt you really believe that. I could go on all day listing changes to games, and you can't keep this up forever.

Oh yeah, I remember the Retake WoW movement, when they set up that charity to try to help convince Blizzard to change the game back. Lots of games get changed; mostly in mechanics and usually due to the diligence of the developers and some of the input of the players. With the one exception of Fallout 3; I've heard very little of games that retconned their own endings because of the demands of the players.

The idea was to highlight the dickishness of ruining something for others to make it better for you. Sometimes illumination helps with understanding a point.

That's what 'illuminate' means in this context. I figured we'd end up endlessly making metaphors about cars. I was just trying to avoid that gruesome fate. But to retort, I think it's pretty dickish to make me eat shit because you savor the flavor. I'm sorry I'm ruining the game for you by making it suck less, but I'm still going to go through with it.

That line. That right there is the problem. Once again, I can't help but feel that you think it objectively sucks, and you're trying to save the players from their own stupidity by giving a game that doesn't suck. Not to mention no one's making you eat shit. You're own stubbornness on playing a game you hate is what's making you eat shit. That doesn't make us dicks, that just makes you stubborn, apparently self-destructively so.

I'm not trying to play innocent. But I think I've highlighted several reasons why I called you a dick. And I'm not sure why you're shocked by that, or with why "Massholes" would exist. If you accept that you're spoiling something that's fun with others I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect people to react with hostility towards that.

I think we've both been clear on our arguments here and the understanding we're not gonna change anyone's mind.

Ah, I see. So you feel justified in calling me a dick and you think people are correct to call Retakers things like "Massholes" because of the content of their message. Can you do me a favor and just confirm that you do in fact approve of these actions and feel they are justified one more time?

If you feel ruining others fun isn't going to be met with hostility than I'm not sure if it's a complete lack of empathy on your part or naivety. People are gonna criticize you the same way the Retakers are criticizing Bioware. You know why? You what they have in common? Because you're trying to ruin the fans fun the same way Bioware ruined the Retakers fun. So don't act like people are being "so unfair" in their hostilities just because of an opinion. RME was more than just people expressing an opinion, it was people actively lobbying for a change.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Good god man, now you're just being dense. It's fucking relative. How is that escaping you? Just because from your perspective it's flawed doesn't mean other people see it the same way. That's why it is a matter of taste entirely; there's no "in a sense".

You are not grasping the subtleties of my argument. From your perspective this is chocolate and vanilla (stop me if I'm wrong). From my perspective, this is a car that runs vs. a car that doesn't run. It is not escaping me that your perspective is different, I just don't care. Well, I do care. But not enough to change my mind.

Oh yeah, I remember the Retake WoW movement, when they set up that charity to try to help convince Blizzard to change the game back. Lots of games get changed; mostly in mechanics and usually due to the diligence of the developers and some of the input of the players. With the one exception of Fallout 3; I've heard very little of games that retconned their own endings because of the demands of the players.

But you have heard of it. So if I follow you, you're saying it's OK to change the game's mechanics, but not OK to change the story. And it's OK to change the game due to "the diligence of the developers and some of the input of the players" but not due to "the demands of the players". Doesn't that sound a bit arbitrary? Your parameters for when it is not OK to change a game are conveniently narrow. And why did we go through that whole song-and-dance about ruining things for people and breaking their toys if it's all OK after all? I mean before it was all tears and heartache and now you're splitting hairs about exactly how a game gets changed and even taking motivation into account. It just seems suspiciously convenient that it's OK to change games except in the one way that I want this one changed for no reason, wouldn't you say?

Are you trying to make an unfavorable comment about my comparison of changing WoW to changing Mass Effect 3? Something about "Retake WoW" and "charity"? I'm really not being intentionally thick. I think you and I have a way of talking past each other.

I'm sorry I'm ruining the game for you by making it suck less, but I'm still going to go through with it.

That line. That right there is the problem. Once again, I can't help but feel that you think it objectively sucks, and you're trying to save the players from their own stupidity by giving a game that doesn't suck.

I don't know what to tell you. Try not to feel that way I guess. Just take my opinion for what it is and see how things go. It is true that if you like the ending to Mass Effect 3 I think you like something that is insulting both to your intellect and you as a customer. And I would like them to fix it. If that offends you, sorry.

Not to mention no one's making you eat shit. You're own stubbornness on playing a game you hate is what's making you eat shit. That doesn't make us dicks, that just makes you stubborn, apparently self-destructively so.

I think Mass Effect 3 isn't perfect so I'm self-destructive? I think you have misjudged how I feel about the whole thing.

If you feel ruining others fun isn't going to be met with hostility than I'm not sure if it's a complete lack of empathy on your part or naivety. People are gonna criticize you the same way the Retakers are criticizing Bioware. You know why? You what they have in common? Because you're trying to ruin the fans fun the same way Bioware ruined the Retakers fun. So don't act like people are being "so unfair" in their hostilities just because of an opinion. RME was more than just people expressing an opinion, it was people actively lobbying for a change.

I get it, they send one of ours to the hospital we send one of theirs to the morgue. But I don't understand what slight you feel has been committed against you because apparently ruining people's fun is fine and not a big deal. Well, fine when they're doing it to me and not you, apparently.

If you think this situation warrants hostility and verbal abuse from anyone, I disagree. But I only brought it up in the first place to demonstrate that the most abusive party by far in this whole thing has been those who bash the critics. If you're fine with that then fair enough. I wasn't really speaking to you specifically so much as pointing it out for all to see.

 

[KrossBillNye]

You know what? I liked the free extended-cut content. EAWare gave me an ending that I very much thought was the most canon piece yet.

I am of course referring to the reject option. Best one of them all yet.

 

[tensorproduct]

I have no idea if my hate is more deserving than your hate. That would demand examination of specific cases and we may want to include a third party arbiter. But I just don't see why I shouldn't criticize Mass Effect 3. I've criticized media hundreds of years older than Mass Effect and no one told me to get over it or move on. I thought Pride and Prejudice lacked a real climax and my suggestion for fixing it was to kill off Jane. Nobody agrees with me but they don't tell me not to talk about it.

I never said you shouldn't criticize the Mass Effect 3. As far as I know, nobody has said that (okay, somebody somewhere probably has, but nobody in this thread). There is a difference between saying that you don't like something, explaining why you don't like it, and demanding that it be changed until you do like it.

It is perfectly okay for you not to like something. It is not rudeness or an attack on the part of the developers to release a game that you dislike, or for them not to take on board every criticism you have of said game. I understand that you want to be satisfied with the finale of a several year long journey, but disappointments happen.

Wait.

You think Jane should have died at the end of Pride and Prejudice? Wow. I have never heard anyone say that. But if we were both around in the early 19th century, would you have written to news papers about the issue, would you have called Jane Austen names and accused her of being rude to her readers for not making the changes that you think should be made, would you have donated money to an orphanage in an effort to pressure her into changing it?

By the way, if you like P&P there is an awesome adaptation of it running on YouTube at the moment: http://youtu.be/KisuGP2lcPs

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I have no idea if my hate is more deserving than your hate. That would demand examination of specific cases and we may want to include a third party arbiter. But I just don't see why I shouldn't criticize Mass Effect 3. I've criticized media hundreds of years older than Mass Effect and no one told me to get over it or move on. I thought Pride and Prejudice lacked a real climax and my suggestion for fixing it was to kill off Jane. Nobody agrees with me but they don't tell me not to talk about it.

I never said you shouldn't criticize the Mass Effect 3. As far as I know, nobody has said that (okay, somebody somewhere probably has, but nobody in this thread). There is a difference between saying that you don't like something, explaining why you don't like it, and demanding that it be changed until you do like it.

It is perfectly okay for you not to like something. It is not rudeness or an attack on the part of the developers to release a game that you dislike, or for them not to take on board every criticism you have of said game. I understand that you want to be satisfied with the finale of a several year long journey, but disappointments happen.

Wait.

You think Jane should have died at the end of Pride and Prejudice? Wow. I have never heard anyone say that. But if we were both around in the early 19th century, would you have written to news papers about the issue, would you have called Jane Austen names and accused her of being rude to her readers for not making the changes that you think should be made, would you have donated money to an orphanage in an effort to pressure her into changing it?

By the way, if you like P&P there is an awesome adaptation of it running on YouTube at the moment: http://youtu.be/KisuGP2lcPs

Several people in this thread have said I (or those who share my opinion) shouldn't criticize it and you yourself told me to move on. What does that mean? Move on from what to what?

I think Bioware's treatment of the fans after the fact was rude to the fans and bad for gamers generally. Releasing a game I dislike is not rude, but releasing one that offends the intellect and my patience as a customer might be. I get that disappointments happen and you would prefer I let this be one of them, but I feel perfectly justified arguing for them to fix that shit. I just don't see why I should let this go just cuz. This is not a typical run-of-the-mill slip-up. This is a "fuck you, franchising, marketing and add-on sales are so important we don't even care if the game is good, and we're also going to shit all over you when you call us out on our bullshit" slip-up. Also, misleading advertising, and "everybody's doing it" is not a good excuse. Even Halo 2 wasn't that insulting. More than anything I'm indignant that people are letting Bioware/EA get away with this bullshit and even defending it.

I wouldn't have done any of those things to Jane Austen because her book is still pretty good and possesses serious artistic merit from start to finish. It's not a cynical, slimy, money-grubbing cock-slap to the face. And entirely apart from her work, she wasn't rude as far as I know. I never said it was rude for Bioware or anyone to not make changes because the fans want them in-and-of-itself. I want to be clear that when I call Bioware rude and things like that, it's usually about their behavior in response to the controversy. If Jane Austen was a total jerk I'd call her out, sure. I probably would not have pressured her to change it because she obviously had the best of intentions and I really don't care that much about it. But I'm definitely not against it in principle. That shit happens to books too, you know. Like I think Clockwork Orange has more impact as a cautionary tale (the American version) even though it was written as a redemption story. That was an editor choice not a fan choice, but I don't think that's an important distinction.

This is how I would write P&P, by the way. I understand if you don't care lol.

Spoiler

See, Pride and Prejudice didn't have much of a climax. It had two kind-of-climaxes and then just kind of winded down. My suggestion would be to kill Jane, but not at the very end. Her unexpected demise would set the stage for the intense emotional climax where Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth have both lost friends and really need help but really clash. Darcy loses Bingley to grief and the guilt he feels over misleading Bingley about Jane leads him to repent and renounce his pride. Elizabeth discovers Darcy's concern for his friend is more deep and genuine than she thought possible. Later, they would overcome their respective faults (you know- pride and prejudice) during the resolution and falling action. I read the book in school and it wasn't the torture I thought it would be. People talk about it like it's some romance novel they sell at Publix, but turns out it's more about overcoming- well you know.

Thanks for the link, but I probably won't get into it too much. I'm not like a superfan, that was just the most clear example I had of something old that was good but (in my opinion) could improve.

 

[tensorproduct]

Several people in this thread have said I (or those who share my opinion) shouldn't criticize it and you yourself told me to move on. What does that mean? Move on from what to what?

I can't be bothered to review the whole thread at this point, but I am fairly sure that nobody said you shouldn't criticize the game. Certainly I didn't, so it's not a point that I'm going to defend. If you want to criticize the game, that's great. It can help you understand what you do and do not like about stories, and others may find it interesting as well. You'll know not to trust Bioware to make games you enjoy. You might even be inspired to write your own stories that don't fall into the problems that ME3 had for you.

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

I think Bioware's treatment of the fans after the fact was rude to the fans and bad for gamers generally.

From what I saw, Bioware bent over backwards to be polite to the fans after the controversy broke. I don't know what rudeness to which you refer, unless you consider simply not giving in to every demand made of them rudeness (which it isn't).

Releasing a game I dislike is not rude, but releasing one that offends the intellect and my patience as a customer might be. I get that disappointments happen and you would prefer I let this be one of them, but I feel perfectly justified arguing for them to fix that shit. I just don't see why I should let this go just cuz. This is not a typical run-of-the-mill slip-up. This is a "fuck you, franchising, marketing and add-on sales are so important we don't even care if the game is good, and we're also going to shit all over you when you call us out on our bullshit" slip-up. Also, misleading advertising, and "everybody's doing it" is not a good excuse. Even Halo 2 wasn't that insulting. More than anything I'm indignant that people are letting Bioware/EA get away with this bullshit and even defending it.

This is all just your opinion of the quality of the game. As you've already asserted that you understand that your opinion is purely subjective, I don't see why you keep on bringing it up.

This is how I would write P&P, by the way. I understand if you don't care lol.

Spoiler

See, Pride and Prejudice didn't have much of a climax. It had two kind-of-climaxes and then just kind of winded down. My suggestion would be to kill Jane, but not at the very end. Her unexpected demise would set the stage for the intense emotional climax where Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth have both lost friends and really need help but really clash. Darcy loses Bingley to grief and the guilt he feels over misleading Bingley about Jane leads him to repent and renounce his pride. Elizabeth discovers Darcy's concern for his friend is more deep and genuine than she thought possible. Later, they would overcome their respective faults (you know- pride and prejudice) during the resolution and falling action. I read the book in school and it wasn't the torture I thought it would be. People talk about it like it's some romance novel they sell at Publix, but turns out it's more about overcoming- well you know.

That is, in my opinion, really bad. If that was how Pride & Prejudice ended, I would not like the book at all. And having realized that I did not like the book, I would be content not to like it and then I would move on. I would not decide that the story needs to change in order to please me, especially if there are people who liked that (awful, awful) ending and there a nearly unlimited number of other books, movies and games out there for me to explore.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I can't be bothered to review the whole thread at this point, but I am fairly sure that nobody said you shouldn't criticize the game. Certainly I didn't, so it's not a point that I'm going to defend. If you want to criticize the game, that's great. It can help you understand what you do and do not like about stories, and others may find it interesting as well. You'll know not to trust Bioware to make games you enjoy. You might even be inspired to write your own stories that don't fall into the problems that ME3 had for you.

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

From what I saw, Bioware bent over backwards to be polite to the fans after the controversy broke. I don't know what rudeness to which you refer, unless you consider simply not giving in to every demand made of them rudeness (which it isn't).

Haven't I been clear that's not the case? How many times are you going to tell me that not giving in to customer demands is not inherently rude? I'm starting to think you're trying to pigeonhole me. Read the article at the beginning of this thread for an example of rudeness. Far from bending over backwards to please fans, they refused to address the issue far too long, they kept fans in the dark after that far too long, they have remained dismissive and condescending and aloof towards their customers and critics while sitting atop their tower of pretentious horseshit. The ending was a complete debacle that was only topped by their PR afterward. Maybe you don't feel the sting of dismissal and condescension because you have taken sides against the target.

This is all just your opinion of the quality of the game. As you've already asserted that you understand that your opinion is purely subjective, I don't see why you keep on bringing it up.

I'm beginning to think 'subjective' doesn't mean what you think it means.

That is, in my opinion, really bad. If that was how Pride & Prejudice ended, I would not like the book at all. And having realized that I did not like the book, I would be content not to like it and then I would move on. I would not decide that the story needs to change in order to please me, especially if there are people who liked that (awful, awful) ending and there a nearly unlimited number of other books, movies and games out there for me to explore.

Oh fuck you lol. (Just kidding). It's the same ending except Jane dies for Christ sake! And if I were in that position, that is what I would do, too.

 

[tensorproduct]

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

You accuse me of calling you names that I never did and then say I'm projecting?! Seriously? Fuck this, I'm out.

Edit: sorry, that was overly rude.

I am going to bail on this conversation though, it's safe to say we're not going to come to any sort of agreement. I basically cannot at all sympathize with your position: you admit that it's just your opinion, but feel personally insulted if the developers don't do everything they can to please you, everybody else be damned.

 

[Th37thTrump3t]

Honestly? They would've been better off just leaving the ending alone and trying to bury this whole said affair.

You gotta give them credit for trying though... Most devs would just be like "Well if you don't like the ending then fuck you, we don't give two shits."

 

[Zeraki]

My time of being angry about the endings came and went a while ago(seriously, how do some of you people stay angry so long? It's exhausting), and despite the fact that the Extended Cut doesn't do much to fix some of the more lore breaking moments(Starchild), I at least got a sense of emotional closure that I wanted all along. I don't care that Shepard dies, I just wanted to know that everything I had done wasn't in vain, as the original endings made it seem.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

You accuse me of calling you names that I never did and then say I'm projecting?! Seriously? Fuck this, I'm out.

Edit: sorry, that was overly rude.

I am going to bail on this conversation though, it's safe to say we're not going to come to any sort of agreement. I basically cannot at all sympathize with your position: you admit that it's just your opinion, but feel personally insulted if the developers don't do everything they can to please you, everybody else be damned.

I didn't think I was writing anything rude, I'm sorry. I was exaggerating when I said "whiny butthurt obsessive". I didn't realize you would take it so hard. You didn't use those words but that was my interpretation of your description of a love-sick obsessive, and then I just exaggerated it. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Sorry. I hope you will believe that any offense given was not intentional.

I think you misunderstand what 'opinion' and 'subjective' mean. I also think "feel personally insulted if the developers don't do everything they can to please you" is a straw man. I have been more than clear that is not my argument. And just because what I'm doing won't please everyone on the planet doesn't mean I'm saying "everybody else be damned". That's pretty hyperbolic.

I'm sorry you cannot sympathize with my position because I sympathize with yours. We were never going to come to an agreement but an understanding would have been nice.

EDIT:Since you don't seem to be planning a response at this point, I would like to explain what I said. You wrote the following:

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

I have accepted that I don't like the ending. And I'll stop thinking about it when you do. You replied to the same thread I did so I guess that makes you just as obsessive, like after a horrible break-up months or years after it happens. You need to let it go, dude. The ending blows goats, you'll be much happier when you accept it and move on.

I mean what emotions do you think I'm experiencing over this? However diplomatic you may have intended it, the person you are describing sounds like a whiny little ***** to me. If that is not what you meant feel free to elaborate. I don't feel that way and I can't imagine why you think I do. I can only assume you made it up and you just imagine anyone who would make my argument must be a whiny little ***** like the one you described. So I feel I was justified in asking you to stop assuming I had those ridiculous emotions.

 

[Mage of Doom]

I can't be bothered to review the whole thread at this point, but I am fairly sure that nobody said you shouldn't criticize the game. Certainly I didn't, so it's not a point that I'm going to defend. If you want to criticize the game, that's great. It can help you understand what you do and do not like about stories, and others may find it interesting as well. You'll know not to trust Bioware to make games you enjoy. You might even be inspired to write your own stories that don't fall into the problems that ME3 had for you.

What I mean when I say "move on", is that you should accept that you dislike the story and then stop thinking about it. It seems like obsessing over a really horrible break-up months or years after it happens. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant for you, but what's done is done.

Well, maybe I'm using the wrong language. When people say things like "shut the fuck up", "stop whining", "don't like it, don't play it", and the endless variations thereof I just read that as "don't criticize it" because that's exactly what it means. I think anything else is splitting hairs.

You have obviously misinterpreted how I feel about the ending and this whole situation. Maybe you're projecting a tad when you imagine me as some whiny butthurt obsessive? I don't know what to say to that except please stop. Just because I think Bioware is shitting all over it's fans and customers doesn't mean I can't sleep through the night. I mean here you are responding on this thread and I don't call you an obsessive fan-boy who can't get off Bioware's nuts because I don't think that is accurate or fair.

From what I saw, Bioware bent over backwards to be polite to the fans after the controversy broke. I don't know what rudeness to which you refer, unless you consider simply not giving in to every demand made of them rudeness (which it isn't).

Haven't I been clear that's not the case? How many times are you going to tell me that not giving in to customer demands is not inherently rude? I'm starting to think you're trying to pigeonhole me. Read the article at the beginning of this thread for an example of rudeness. Far from bending over backwards to please fans, they refused to address the issue far too long, they kept fans in the dark after that far too long, they have remained dismissive and condescending and aloof towards their customers and critics while sitting atop their tower of pretentious horseshit. The ending was a complete debacle that was only topped by their PR afterward. Maybe you don't feel the sting of dismissal and condescension because you have taken sides against the target.

This is all just your opinion of the quality of the game. As you've already asserted that you understand that your opinion is purely subjective, I don't see why you keep on bringing it up.

I'm beginning to think 'subjective' doesn't mean what you think it means.

That is, in my opinion, really bad. If that was how Pride & Prejudice ended, I would not like the book at all. And having realized that I did not like the book, I would be content not to like it and then I would move on. I would not decide that the story needs to change in order to please me, especially if there are people who liked that (awful, awful) ending and there a nearly unlimited number of other books, movies and games out there for me to explore.

Oh fuck you lol. (Just kidding). It's the same ending except Jane dies for Christ sake! And if I were in that position, that is what I would do, too.

After having read EVERYTHING you've posted on here, I can tell you that your opinion on something is not fact, for I enjoyed the endings and did not see any plot holes after the DLC came out. You're just obsessing pathetically over something you didn't like because you have to have everything your way. Like the captcha of this post, you're a 'namby-pamby'.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

After having read EVERYTHING you've posted on here, I can tell you that your opinion on something is not fact, for I enjoyed the endings and did not see any plot holes after the DLC came out. You're just obsessing pathetically over something you didn't like because you have to have everything your way. Like the captcha of this post, you're a 'namby-pamby'.

Opinions are not facts? Alert the Pentagon!

SO WHAT? What does everybody think they are accomplishing by stating the super obvious? Next you'll tell me up is not down like it's a revelation. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

It sucks and they should have fixed it. Oh, and they should have handled their PR non-shittily. Witness the hideous depths of my obsession! How will I carry ooooooooon!

You're obsessing pathetically over people not agreeing with you on the internet. You can't eat- you can't sleep- what oh what are you to do?????

 

[JomBob]

When was the last time an audience demanded that a book be rewritten because the ending was bad? When was the last time an audience demanded that a movie be remade because they didn't like the ending? When was the last time a book or movie actually WAS remade because of demands from the audience?

Funny you should ask that, because it was the Mass Effect novel Mass Effect: Deception by William C. Dietz.

Story here [http://kotaku.com/5882185/bioware-to-patch-error+laden-mass-effect-novel-in-response-to-fan-uproar]

Error list [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/preview?pli=1]

If you want a more classical example then I refer you to Little Women. I am given to understand that the fans were avowedly Jo x Laurie but the author refused to make that pairing due to her own life experiences.

 

[Erttheking]

I know you can't please all of your fan base Bioware but as one person (I forget who) once said, it's better to please 90% of your fan base rather than just 5%

 

[Mage of Doom]

I know you can't please all of your fan base Bioware but as one person (I forget who) once said, it's better to please 90% of your fan base rather than just 5%

Just because you're louder doesn't mean there are more of you.