BioWare: MMORPGs Have "No Point"

BarbaricGoose

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CKalvin said:
But then whats the point of an massiveMULTIPLAYERonline if the story is based around you and NPC's?
+ it doesn't really make sense for it to happen because say, for example, you complete some amazing hectic heroic quest in an MMO and in doing so become a champion of the people etcetc, like many stories go.

How does that work when thousands of other people are doing the exact same thing? Doesn't that break the ingame story when a thousand different people kill the same evil beast that's been plaguing the good land of iono, someplace irrelevant like Canada. (jks I love Canadians)
Good writing can find a way around all of that. It's easy enough to write a story that goes something like: "X is haunting Y. He hasn't stopped ravaging the country side, please, find some other adventurers and kill X!" See? It's pretty easy to write in some sort of group interaction.

Also, it works fine in EVERY OTHER MMO THAT CURRENTLY IS OR HAS BEEN ON THE MARKET EVER EVER EVER. No one questions the game's story when some endgame boss is killed in any other MMO. If you've played any other MMO, you shouldn't have a problem with issues such as these, because as stated before, they're going to be in every MMO.

I don't see how you can exclusively knock SWTOR for a problem that, to some degree, every MMO is going to have.

Supernova2000 said:
TOR never appealed to me for one reason: KoTOR 1+2 didn't arbitrarily restrict access to certain force powers based on your alignment - powers of opposing alignment to yours just cost more force points to use - and i really enjoyed being a good jedi who was as lightning-trigger happy as Emperor Palpatine. That and TOR seems to just piss all over the KoTOR series story, throw it off a cliff and deny it's very existence.
You're gonna hate this game for a problem that... others games have..? Well, I'm not here to judge. I will say, however, that that does not make sense to me.

And you're forgetting that Jedis can indeed use lightning. It's not exclusively an "Evil" thing. How trigger happy you are with it is entirely up to you.

Also; the story is based couple hundred years(I believe) before KoTOR. If you want to learn more about the timeline, go here: http://swtor.com/info/holonet/timeline
 

Red-Link

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Wait, didn't BioWare ***** out JRPG's recently? I know they make good games, but they seem to be a bit antagonistic lately.
 

Hiroshi Mishima

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One of the biggest reasons I avoid almost everything MMORPG is because I can't stand the fact that there is very little to do besides grind. The storyline aspects end way too fast and after that all you're doing is leveling and killing random things until new stuff appears. The average problem with this is that once it does appear, everyone is so damned powerful that they clear through it the day it's added.

Shin Megami Tensei Imagine was a very good idea, in context. But in execution it is a total failure as the storyline was never finished and the only things being added are new outfits, gear, occasional monsters, and "random generated dungeons" like Celu Tower. It's boring fast and once you hit level cap there's nothing else to do. This is what I see wrong with most MMORPGs.
 

ReverseEngineered

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Apr 30, 2008
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I completely agree with Erickson and take it as fact that current MMORPGs lack any sort of overarching story for the player to participate in (even WoW which, despite having an overarching story, rarely let's the player participate in it).

That said, we have to wonder whether it is even possible to do so. Can you make a story that spans hundreds of hours of play? Can you have it involve everybody in the game, even if all of those people aren't necessarily working through it? Can each player actually make a meaningful contribution to that story? Can it still be fun and interesting at the same time?

I think it could be done because we've seen glimpses of it. In Ultima Online, the cities and stores were actually run by the players (to the best of my knowledge; I never played that game). When Lord British fell (even though it was an accident) it was incorporated into the story. In World of Warcraft, it takes the combined efforts of each faction to unlock new areas. In Warhammer Online and World of Warcraft, factions can take control of areas of the map, affecting what the other factions can do there. All of these are small glimpses of the kind of persistent storyline that current MMORPGs miss out on.

I think part of the problem is that MMORPGs are all based on hunting and gathering [http://mxac.com.au/drt/ProblemSolving.htm]. Any story is peripheral to the desire to gather gold, to get items, to gather more gold. In modern MMORPGs, this "gathering" is usually done by completing quests for people, who then pay you in gold, but even those quests often involve gathering something for the quest giver.

Right now, the story only advances because each new quest giver is in a different place and has a different story to tell. It's like seeing cinematics between each level, only these cinematics are boring, skippable, and have no effect on gameplay. Compare this to Fallout 3, where the only reason you are doing anything is to progress the story (which, consequently, increases your XP and makes you more powerful), and without following the story, you won't be able to make reasonable progress. In order for an MMORPG to integrate a story like this, it would need to change its motivation: leveling needs to be a result of participating in the story, not just doing odd jobs. Some of this may come down to writing better quests: most WoW quests have nothing to do with the story, but they could. Others may come down to placing less emphasis on hunting/gathering and more emphasis on the story. For example, maybe you couldn't advance to a given area until you finished a certain story-related quest (such as The Dark Portal in WoW -- one of the few places the story was really well integrated with the game).

In the vein of making the players part of the story, here's an idea. Just like in most MMORPGs, there are enemy encampments near town. But they don't just sit there: they attack at varying intervals and with varying numbers. If they manage to take the town, the entire landscape changes: you can't buy things from the stores and all the quest givers flee and won't give you any other quest than "take back our homes!". All of the players would have to band together to take back the town, and they would all want to do so because it's the only way they can continue playing the game. I imagine this might be difficult to do well and might even break the game ("Halla is taken? You mean I can't play the game until 20 people ome and help me? Then I'm not playing."), but it would certainly tie together the social/multiplayer aspect and the story line. Basically, make the NPCs, and the story that unfolds through them, depend on the state of the world, and make the state of the world dependent on what the players are doing. Halla in World of Warcraft does this well, but without fitting itself into the story.

Actually, there is one MMO that does something like this: Lord of the Rings Online. Sure, you end up spending a lot of time doing silly fetch quests, but there are also great moments where you are part of a huge battle and the entire world around you changes as a result. It requires instancing, which breaks the multiplayer experience a bit, but it's at least an attempt to accomplish this. Now if only the other 99% of the quests were as tightly integrated.
 

Gasaraki

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I'm getting a big annoyed by the "THERE IS NO RPG BUT THE BIOWARE RPG" attitude that Bioware has had lately.
OT: I've always thought of MMORPG's at existentialist RPG's where there isn't much of a goal unless you give yourself one, usually people mostly play them to hang out with their friends though.
 

antipunt

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thebobmaster said:
antipunt said:
Well...they can talk the talk. Let's see if they can walk the walk.

*Hopes they can, but is incredibly skeptical*
I find your lack of faith disturbing. Sorry, not trying to pick on you, but that phrase has been in my mind through the last 4 pages, and you were the most convenient target on the last page.
Sure, no offense taken. If it does clarify things, though, I'm pretty much just generally skeptical of anything I find 'difficult to pull off'. My statement implies nothing with regards to my personal opinion of Bioware as a developer.
 

Fensfield

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Quite frankly, I think the lack of point kind of Is the point. MMORPGs provide a framework for you to find direction in with friends.. even if you forcibly put a point in, I bet there'll be people that create another one for themselves.

For instance, for me? The primary reason I play MMO's is for roleplays sake. Be it actively roleplaying with friends or just creating a character with their personality in mind and letting it influence my behaviour in game from there.. the point for me is creating and inserting a character into a massive, living setting and seeing what happens.

The place I had most success? Ragnarok Online. No MMO since has allowed me to do that more successfully, and there are a lot of MMO's with more 'point' than Ragnarok. For me, it's all about how evocative a setting the game creates and how good a frame that provides to see what happens with my characters.

.. Also, Bioware have been seeming really haughty lately >.>
 

Blimey

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The main reason I dislike MMORPG's so intensely is because they're just a big grind-fest. Its always "go here, click on this enemy until dead." For hours and hours. Big-fucking-deal.

I can only hope Bioware injects some new life into the MMORPG scene.
 

SyphonX

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That is great and all, but MMOs are not supposed to be about "the story", per se. All that is required is a solid set of lore, and background, maybe a good canon story. However, it's all about the online interaction, and doing what you want with other people.

Bioware is a wonderful company, but I'm not so sure they're going to be the greatest MMO developers to walk the planet. I'm not sure I'm going to like the idea of a "story based MMO", in the way that Bioware sees it.

Lord of the Rings Online has a story arch structure that works quite well, doing "Book updates", that literally follow the sequence of the novels, not the movies. They don't even have licensing for the movie trilogy.

It will be interesting to see what Bioware has planned, but.. I'm just not sure. MMOs have always been, and always will be about the World, and everything that comes with it. A hand-holding story guiding each player through a "Single-Player Experience" just doesn't sound very appealing to me. I personally, do not want to feel like a "superhero saving the world" in an MMO, where everybody else is the same exact thing. Kind of like the Age of Conan hero syndrome.. where you are the "chosen one"... just like everyone else. It's really silly, and doesn't work in a MMO where it's supposed to be just being a regular guy or gal plopped down into a massive place to explore, and basically do whatever you want to do. Choose your own adventure basically... Whatever happened to that structure? Seriously.. Why does everyone have to feel like they are saving the world in every game we play? It just makes me feel like a douche bag, it's getting quite stale. I don't want to save the world anymore, I just want to be a small part of it, making it expand with other people who share similar small parts, that they choose, their chosen roles, not what the developer forces you to do.
 

CKalvin

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BarbaricGoose said:
CKalvin said:
But then whats the point of an massiveMULTIPLAYERonline if the story is based around you and NPC's?
+ it doesn't really make sense for it to happen because say, for example, you complete some amazing hectic heroic quest in an MMO and in doing so become a champion of the people etcetc, like many stories go.

How does that work when thousands of other people are doing the exact same thing? Doesn't that break the ingame story when a thousand different people kill the same evil beast that's been plaguing the good land of iono, someplace irrelevant like Canada. (jks I love Canadians)
Good writing can find a way around all of that. It's easy enough to write a story that goes something like: "X is haunting Y. He hasn't stopped ravaging the country side, please, find some other adventurers and kill X!" See? It's pretty easy to write in some sort of group interaction.

Also, it works fine in EVERY OTHER MMO THAT CURRENTLY IS OR HAS BEEN ON THE MARKET EVER EVER EVER. No one questions the game's story when some endgame boss is killed in any other MMO. If you've played any other MMO, you shouldn't have a problem with issues such as these, because as stated before, they're going to be in every MMO.

I don't see how you can exclusively knock SWTOR for a problem that, to some degree, every MMO is going to have.
I've never played an MMO, and never will in the forseeable future so apologies for a flawed argument from a non-MMO-er.

and I'm not knocking SWTOR, I loved Kotor so I'd love to see this succeed even though I'm not going to play it. =)
 

Kachal

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SW TOR is sounding like a great singleplayer game that your gonna be shelling out for every month.

I think Bioware have hit the jackpot there.
 

Usurpurus

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Provided you can skip the boring story that Bioware often has.

No. That's wrong. I should say 'skip the boring presentation of the story'. The endless cutscenes in Mass Effect and Dragon Age just put me off the games.
 

Silencer_007

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As a guy who has tried WoW and EVE and still found them lacking, I'm still looking forward to this. I'm not trying to knock anyones taste here, but how exactly can an individual become addicted to most (if not all) of the present games falling into the classification of MMORPG's? Look, I like seeing new scenery and bad guys too, but eventually it all dissolves to the same routine that the player dictates. Certainly each style is different, but for the individual the EXPERIENCE stays the same.

I can see from the PvP perspective why some would want to compete against other players, but speaking strictly for myself I can think of quite a few other ways to compete with or against other players that don't involve grinding or resource mining. And, while I really don't want to get flamed for an opinion, I kinda agree with Bioware on this one. As a sum total experience, after most of the main story has passed, there really is no point to continue playing other than the reason you generate for yourself. There needs to be some continuity, story, and real honest-to-god story driven cinematics to ad to the experience.

Simply put, there are only so many text screens I can read before I need someone to just freaking say something already. Which, as demonstrated by everything Bioware has ever done, is most certainly their area of expertise.
 

LitleWaffle

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I play some MMO's, and I think they're fun. Don't judge me I play a large variety of games.
The trick is to find the correct MMO. Many are pointless in just killing monsters over and over. But the ones that I play are really fun and have a decent story.

Mabinogi: Definetly one of the best ones out there. Completly open ended, and has a decent story you can get into. The combat is also really fun and strategic, unlike most MMO's where you just spam skills and jump a bunch until they die. Skills take a while to use, and each skill has its strengths and weaknesses. Very entertaining if you can stand to play a game that starts out a little slow.

Dungeons and Dragons Online: VERY fun and strategic, good story and really grasps the Role play aspect. Based off D&D and a very full game. Nothing else to say on the matter, its just too awesome.

You have to find a good MMO, which could be difficult as there are too many bad ones.

I hope this one will be good, and that the battles will be very strategic, unlike some of them hack and slash MMO's. <-(Maplestory... *shudders*)

Please don't fail us Bioware!
 

Haukur Isleifsson

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I have so terribly high expectations of this game that I am afraid that nothing, no matter how good, will be able to satisfy me. Kotor benefits so much from nostalgia that this game has not only got to mach the awesomeness of it's predecessors but exceed it by a degree.
 

Section Crow

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Aug 26, 2009
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well if their's no story their's no reason to do anything

even in online multiplayer games like cod have some minor story
 

soultwister

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What a successful MMO needs is innoavtion and emphasis on interaction with other players. BioWare didn't show any of these so far. They can write a good novel and force non-gamers to read it, but AFAIK they can't do a good economy, PvP system, party system, or any of the other important things. In ANY MMO the player interaction drives the players; wanting to be better than others, part of a group or just spend time with friends. What they don't want is to read the Quest Log or get cutscenes each 5 minutes. Ev'rything that doesn't involve other players always molds into grind. Unless you're a major nerd and care about the lore instead of just reading a good book.

TL;DR BioWare has ZERO experience with MMO and ZERO experience with ANYTHING MMO RELATED. You're better off just reading reviews about it some time after relase, perhaps waiting for a Trial and checking it out.