Bioware...*sigh*

[Mouse One]

I must be the weird exception that plays BioWare games for their narratives.

Not at all. I wouldn't play them if they didn't have a good story. For example, I love Mass Effect. But if you just want a shooter, there's better ones out there. It's the narrative with the gameplay that punctuates it that make Bioware games appealing.

The thing is, D&D rules don't translate all that well to a video game. You'll notice this pretty quickly if you roll a mage in BG1 and find that you can only cast one spell before resting for the first four chapters or so. That's not "real" difficulty. That's just annoying. There's a lot of deep tactical combat in those games, but if I have give up an ounce of that to get away from some of the tiresome nonsense (I'm sure it enhances immersion for you PnP players, that's fine) carried over from D&D, then I'm okay with that.

Spot on. I grew up playing PnP D&D (preferred Chaosium games, but D&D is the gold standard). The thing is, so much of the mechanics were designed for a different medium than videogames. Computer RPGs are videogames, and they work best when playing on the strengths of that medium. Would we really want to see the die roll results of each attack? KoToR was close to that at times, down to turn based combat. In a way, it was a perfect animation of an old style RPG. But speaking for myself, I preferred Mass Effect with the integration of action games into an RPG format.

I'm not sure mechanics are what makes an RPG, and props to Bioware for trying new things even if they occasionally hit a sour note. There's a lot of hate about DA2, but I suspect even the haters would admit (well, maybe not) that *aspects* of that game applied to future games would be a good thing.

 

[Savber]

Meh... I'm fine with Bioware making more action games with RPG elements. Hence, why I still love Mass Effect 2. You just accept that this isn't a pure RPG but a mixture of different genres.

However,I simply can't justify the atrocity that's Dragon Age II. The writing, the setting, the gameplay... just horrible.

But hey... one bad Bioware games isn't the end of the world.

 

[loremazd]

If you think Bioware got the Star Wars franchise out of the goodness of their hearts and the desire to make good games, you're kidding yourself. They did it because they wanted to put a well recieved franchise and make an rpg out of it because it would sell well.

first of all, they dont just 'get the franchise', they were probably paid to make the game as im pretty sure bioware didn't have a publisher at that time. bioware barely had a name for itself then and lucas went with a different company to make the sequel.

besides, i never said "bioware used to make games out of the goodness of their hearts", so way to make up your own context from my post. I said, its simliar to how pixar works, they make movies that interest them, so they end up as interesting films, and make money from THAT, and NOT "well lets just copy someone else because we aren't really designers anymore".

why do you think the new star wars game is an MMO?

why was mass effect 2 gameplay ripped straight from gears of war?

why is DA2 combat and art style copied from wow/diablo/others?

because they can't think for themselves anymore and feel obligated to market their games to the "everyman" which we all should know by now that there is no "everyman" so you just end up with a watered down product that no one can really relate too.

I dont know the reasons for any of those, other than the latter two are untrue.

Mass effect 2 uses a cover system, and that is the only comparison to Gears of war.

DA plays nothing like either WoW or diablo, especially diablo. I have played all three games, and other than the concept that there are hotbuttons for skills, there is no comparison at all.

DA2 for the PC plays exactly the same as DA1 mechanically. The only thing that changed was the camera and the movement speed between enemies.

 

[4173]

If you think Bioware got the Star Wars franchise out of the goodness of their hearts and the desire to make good games, you're kidding yourself. They did it because they wanted to put a well recieved franchise and make an rpg out of it because it would sell well.

first of all, they dont just 'get the franchise', they were probably paid to make the game as im pretty sure bioware didn't have a publisher at that time. bioware barely had a name for itself then and lucas went with a different company to make the sequel.

besides, i never said "bioware used to make games out of the goodness of their hearts", so way to make up your own context from my post. I said, its simliar to how pixar works, they make movies that interest them, so they end up as interesting films, and make money from THAT, and NOT "well lets just copy someone else because we aren't really designers anymore".

why do you think the new star wars game is an MMO?

why was mass effect 2 gameplay ripped straight from gears of war?

why is DA2 combat and art style copied from wow/diablo/others?

because they can't think for themselves anymore and feel obligated to market their games to the "everyman" which we all should know by now that there is no "everyman" so you just end up with a watered down product that no one can really relate too.

I think you're using too wide a brush. No one can make an MMO anymore without just copying? I can't say I've ever thought WoW and Diablo had similar art styles beyond basics (swords! and armor! and magic! and humans!). Besides, it's not like the style of Baldur's Gate deviated much from "general fantasy" either. They completely ripped off AD&D combat and art style.

 

[00slash00]

To the OP:

Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Kotor were (please hear me out before throwing a Maximized Fireball) not that great. Not compared to what we have now.

Both you and I and many other people remember them as being so great, but that was because we formed that idea long ago when an RPG's competion was a bunch of now forgotten titles, Arcanum(which has been forgotten by many), and the early Fallout series.

As an experiment I had some of my younger cousins who played Mass Effect and DAO play Baldur's Gate 2. They didn't like it, not because of the crappy graphics but because the game was too slow to them and the character portraits next to the dialog did nothing for them.

Nostalgia is great but those games aren't as impressive today as they were then.

As for DA2: the Beatles and Spielberg have had their dim bulbs. One screw up doesn't make a pattern.

kotor was shit and neverwinter nights was average at best. baldurs gate, however, was and is the best rpg i have every played. i dont understand your argument, are you saying baldurs gate wasnt that great because its old? because fallout 1 and 2, baldurs gate 1 and 2, and arcanum, are all what i would consider some of the best rpgs i have ever played. and you cant say its just because i played them so long ago, because every single one of those games i have either played for the first time, or replayed, within the past 2 years. it sounds to me like your criticism of the games is that you dont enjoy traditional rpgs. seems like these days if an rpg isnt fast paced and action oriented, everyones ADD kicks in and they get bored. well if you want a fast paced action game, maybe you should play god of war or some random shooter. i miss the old days of rpgs, when story actually mattered. i cant remember the last modern rpg that actually had a good story, all the stories these days are just comparatively good because we have gotten used to shit stories

 

[flim.geek.chic]

I'm glad they "actionify" the combat because why the fuck would you want to play lightsabers and guns like a dice game? that shit's always baffled me. People don't ever, nor would they ever, in any logical fucking universe, fight like that!

That's a valid point. Games that make combat action oriented, if it's done well are great! Mass Effect 2 had it down very well, and as I said, I like it. But there is goodness in turn-based combat too. Some more games that take this to heart would be great to play. It's not that there has to be EITHER OR, you know?

Well here is my little suggestion for you,take it or leave it. Go make it yourself. I'm in school to become a developer, maybe you should be to. If you want a game with all of these elements create it. If this dosen't interest you then please for the love of baby jebus stop bitching OR ***** in the right direction. Write a letter to Bioware expressing you ideas and opinions. In other words if you feel this strongly about it do something constructive with that energy.

 

[loremazd]

I'm glad they "actionify" the combat because why the fuck would you want to play lightsabers and guns like a dice game? that shit's always baffled me. People don't ever, nor would they ever, in any logical fucking universe, fight like that!

That's a valid point. Games that make combat action oriented, if it's done well are great! Mass Effect 2 had it down very well, and as I said, I like it. But there is goodness in turn-based combat too. Some more games that take this to heart would be great to play. It's not that there has to be EITHER OR, you know?

Well here is my little suggestion for you,take it or leave it. Go make it yourself. I'm in school to become a developer, maybe you should be to. If you want a game with all of these elements create it. If this dosen't interest you then please for the love of baby jebus stop bitching OR ***** in the right direction. Write a letter to Bioware expressing you ideas and opinions. In other words if you feel this strongly about it do something constructive with that energy.

Lay off the guy a bit, his ideas and demeanor aren't unreasonable, even though I can disagree with them. It's not such a terrible thing to talk about your thoughts with others.

 

[DarK3334]

let's look at this analytically shall we? before going into a shit flinging contest. The main difference in bioware games today and what they made back then is that most of the mechanics of games like Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, and Dragon Age: Origins are DnD style rolling dice behind the scenes, which is fine in its own right, I'm a huge DnD fan myself. The problem I find with this mechanic is that it is not very immersive, can be rather tedious, and only people who play those types of games can really get into them. With Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2, since the action is more immediate these mechanics are more appealing to a wider audience, mostly from the action and shooter demographics which are by some of the largest. The dialogue and choice system, a bioware staple, I think is much better than anything in Baldur's Gate or KOTOR because the actions you take now have far more drastic and immediate consequences. Mass Effect 2 has you make choices that question whether it is better to completely annihilate an entire culture or brainwash it. I challenge you to find that kind of storytelling anywhere else in gaming. Without the current bioware games, video game storytelling would be missing some of its best examples. As for the banning of customers however, there is no excuse for that. Seriously, what the fuck.

 

[JackKrauserFtw]

I had the biggest laugh I've had in years when you mentioned Ultima 7, if that game was made today by Bioware it'd be the most expensive entertainment product development in history and take over a decade to make. Your understanding of the work required to create such products is almost insulting and if they actually did what you wanted they'd be out of business.

It wouldn't be if they just stopped putting all their capacities into making everything cinematic and with super HD graphics. But that wouldn't be profitable would it. There's a trade-off. Would you prefer advanced AI for NPCs so that they have complex underlying social systems, or would you want more shiny graphics? Because making all these graphic assets (models etc) costs a lot of development time, and therefore money.

They don't any more, game engines do A LOT of the work for the art team, no custom shaders, even including some generic textures to use, its easy to get a game to look amazing with minimal funds (Just look at what they did with Amnesia, or the new PAM: Post Apocalyptic Mayhem), they are both indie titles, and both look incredible. Other than that I'd like to address your point on how Bioware is 'actionifying' the RPG genre, it's all about the publishers, publishers are what fund you and if they don't like an idea they simply say "nope", and you don't get a choice unless you want your funding cut. Now that you know this you might realise that publishers are in it simply for the money, they want what brings the biggest return on their investment, and if that means turning a RPG heavy game into a more action based one in order to reach a broader demographic then so be it, besides I think the games are much better now, I played ME2 and DA2 before I played BG2 and I thought they were better in every way

 

[justnotcricket]

But it sounds like you just wanted them to make the same game with different wallpaper - SciFi, Medieval etc. By changing things, perhaps in response to player comments, they are actually trying to make their games better. Sure, perhaps some of the changes don't work out, but I'd rather have a game that was sound, but had tried a few new things (whether they were brilliant or not)than the same damn game over and over again. And let's face it, as entertaining as Bioware games are, they're already very distinctively...Biowarey.

 

[dolgion]

I'm glad they "actionify" the combat because why the fuck would you want to play lightsabers and guns like a dice game? that shit's always baffled me. People don't ever, nor would they ever, in any logical fucking universe, fight like that!

That's a valid point. Games that make combat action oriented, if it's done well are great! Mass Effect 2 had it down very well, and as I said, I like it. But there is goodness in turn-based combat too. Some more games that take this to heart would be great to play. It's not that there has to be EITHER OR, you know?

Well here is my little suggestion for you,take it or leave it. Go make it yourself. I'm in school to become a developer, maybe you should be to. If you want a game with all of these elements create it. If this dosen't interest you then please for the love of baby jebus stop bitching OR ***** in the right direction. Write a letter to Bioware expressing you ideas and opinions. In other words if you feel this strongly about it do something constructive with that energy.

Actually I am working on it. Of course I'm only one guy, but I am working on it. Maybe check my Blog http://thedolgion.com if you want to have a look at what I do right now. It's all very very very early phase obviously.

 

[JackKrauserFtw]

To the OP:

Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Kotor were (please hear me out before throwing a Maximized Fireball) not that great. Not compared to what we have now.

Both you and I and many other people remember them as being so great, but that was because we formed that idea long ago when an RPG's competion was a bunch of now forgotten titles, Arcanum(which has been forgotten by many), and the early Fallout series.

As an experiment I had some of my younger cousins who played Mass Effect and DAO play Baldur's Gate 2. They didn't like it, not because of the crappy graphics but because the game was too slow to them and the character portraits next to the dialog did nothing for them.

Nostalgia is great but those games aren't as impressive today as they were then.

As for DA2: the Beatles and Spielberg have had their dim bulbs. One screw up doesn't make a pattern.

kotor was shit and neverwinter nights was average at best. baldurs gate, however, was and is the best rpg i have every played. i dont understand your argument, are you saying baldurs gate wasnt that great because its old? because fallout 1 and 2, baldurs gate 1 and 2, and arcanum, are all what i would consider some of the best rpgs i have ever played. and you cant say its just because i played them so long ago, because every single one of those games i have either played for the first time, or replayed, within the past 2 years. it sounds to me like your criticism of the games is that you dont enjoy traditional rpgs. seems like these days if an rpg isnt fast paced and action oriented, everyones ADD kicks in and they get bored. well if you want a fast paced action game, maybe you should play god of war or some random shooter. i miss the old days of rpgs, when story actually mattered. i cant remember the last modern rpg that actually had a good story, all the stories these days are just comparatively good because we have gotten used to shit stories

I think KotoR was pretty damn good, and I played it for the first time not long ago, so no nostalgia to colour my view on it, on the other hand I think Neverwinter Nights was terrible because of the horrible horrible engine, BG2 I can understand why people liked it, but its just not my kind of game, so I avoided it

 

[MisguidedTerran]

About the Nostalgia argument, I'm not saying that because it's old it's shit. I'm angry that people say things like, "Oh this was so freaking awesome but there's no way this new thing can even compare it's obviously crap." That's a very small thing that's been said lately, but that's what I only get miffed at.

Old stuff can still be awesome, hell now that I think about it, I'm gonna pick up KotOR again. Does this mean I enjoy it far more than anything lately? No, frankly my tastes much prefer Mass Effect, but that's just a matter of opinion, but I agree, KotOR was awesome.

 

[flim.geek.chic]

I'm glad they "actionify" the combat because why the fuck would you want to play lightsabers and guns like a dice game? that shit's always baffled me. People don't ever, nor would they ever, in any logical fucking universe, fight like that!

That's a valid point. Games that make combat action oriented, if it's done well are great! Mass Effect 2 had it down very well, and as I said, I like it. But there is goodness in turn-based combat too. Some more games that take this to heart would be great to play. It's not that there has to be EITHER OR, you know?

Well here is my little suggestion for you,take it or leave it. Go make it yourself. I'm in school to become a developer, maybe you should be to. If you want a game with all of these elements create it. If this dosen't interest you then please for the love of baby jebus stop bitching OR ***** in the right direction. Write a letter to Bioware expressing you ideas and opinions. In other words if you feel this strongly about it do something constructive with that energy.

Lay off the guy a bit, his ideas and demeanor aren't unreasonable, even though I can disagree with them. It's not such a terrible thing to talk about your thoughts with others.

This is me laying off. I'm simplly making a suggestion that would solve his "problem". Hell,I don't know how talented this guy is he make come back in a year and really have made the game or inspired Bioware or another developer to make a game with his ideas.

 

[00slash00]

Remember Bioware? Those guys made some of the modern classics of the RPG genre. Baldur's Gate, KotoR, Neverwinter Nights etc. What happened to them?

In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased. No, this is Bioware's fault 100%. To me, this is another sign that Bioware is losing its edge. Since when is Bioware so headless and submissive to just simply throw in features that players call for without taking a step back to see if the changes work for the game, and contribute to reaching the vision for it?
Because that's, you know, the JOB of a game designer.

And is the cooperation with EA turning Bioware into an oppressive company that bans legitimate customers from playing their games simply for badmouthing them?

Generally I found myself liking Bioware RPGs less and less over the years. Ever since Baldur's Gate 2 did they start decreasing the scope of their games, actionifying the combat systems in them until the games they produce became a mockery of the games they used to make.

Bioware, just admit you aren't able to make games anymore like you used to. Admit that all you're trying to do is get the greatest common denominator of gamers to buy your games so that you can make more money. You obviously don't know anymore how to make a deep and epic RPG, because you're so misguided about the things that make them great. If you just concede this and move on to making semi-linear action games with good stories, that's okay. I liked Mass Effect 2.

DA:O was a let down to me because it wasnt old school enough. when i first heard about it, i heard it described as like a modern version of baldurs gate. that was certainly not the case. im not saying it was a bad game, but it fell far short of my expectations. it was a decent fantasy rpg, but it was no baldurs gate

 

[Lizmichi]

*sigh* Another BioWare hate thread? Ok lets get this out of the way. I enjoy BioWare games like KotOR and Jade Empire just as much as I love Dragon Age and Mass Effect. BioWare isn't losing there touch. The fact is you can't please everyone all of the time. I know people that love Dragon Age 2 more then KotOR and Jade Empire. The fact is people always spell out doom and gloom whenever a triple A title comes out. Hell people will do the same thing next month to Valve with Portal 2.

Fact is I love BioWare and think they tell an amazing story and stay true to RPGs more then most now a days. BioWare are sticking there necks out to try new things and don't blame EA for this ether. EA isn't the devil or something we need to shun.

 

[flim.geek.chic]

I'm glad they "actionify" the combat because why the fuck would you want to play lightsabers and guns like a dice game? that shit's always baffled me. People don't ever, nor would they ever, in any logical fucking universe, fight like that!

That's a valid point. Games that make combat action oriented, if it's done well are great! Mass Effect 2 had it down very well, and as I said, I like it. But there is goodness in turn-based combat too. Some more games that take this to heart would be great to play. It's not that there has to be EITHER OR, you know?

Well here is my little suggestion for you,take it or leave it. Go make it yourself. I'm in school to become a developer, maybe you should be to. If you want a game with all of these elements create it. If this dosen't interest you then please for the love of baby jebus stop bitching OR ***** in the right direction. Write a letter to Bioware expressing you ideas and opinions. In other words if you feel this strongly about it do something constructive with that energy.

Actually I am working on it. Of course I'm only one guy, but I am working on it. Maybe check my Blog http://thedolgion.com if you want to have a look at what I do right now. It's all very very very early phase obviously.

See that's awesome! I wish more people would do that.

EDIT: Oh Honny if I was being aggressive you would know. any who, I've only had a chance to glance at what you've got going... Looks like a Turn Based RPG Zelda game. Not exactly my favorite flavor game but, I admire the fact your working very obivously hard at it. I'm going to follow the blog and see how thing develope if you don't mind.

 

[4173]

If you think Bioware got the Star Wars franchise out of the goodness of their hearts and the desire to make good games, you're kidding yourself. They did it because they wanted to put a well recieved franchise and make an rpg out of it because it would sell well.

first of all, they dont just 'get the franchise', they were probably paid to make the game as im pretty sure bioware didn't have a publisher at that time. bioware barely had a name for itself then and lucas went with a different company to make the sequel.

besides, i never said "bioware used to make games out of the goodness of their hearts", so way to make up your own context from my post. I said, its simliar to how pixar works, they make movies that interest them, so they end up as interesting films, and make money from THAT, and NOT "well lets just copy someone else because we aren't really designers anymore".

why do you think the new star wars game is an MMO?

why was mass effect 2 gameplay ripped straight from gears of war?

why is DA2 combat and art style copied from wow/diablo/others?

because they can't think for themselves anymore and feel obligated to market their games to the "everyman" which we all should know by now that there is no "everyman" so you just end up with a watered down product that no one can really relate too.

I think you're using too wide a brush. No one can make an MMO anymore without just copying? I can't say I've ever thought WoW and Diablo had similar art styles beyond basics (swords! and armor! and magic! and humans!). Besides, it's not like the style of Baldur's Gate deviated much from "general fantasy" either. They completely ripped off AD&D combat and art style.

Well it was d&d licensed for gods sake !

Were you expecting friggin anamie ??

No, I was being tongue in cheek, but your art style comment runs from dark to light, gritty to cartoony, gore to less gore, mostly reasonable weapons to batshit crazy weapons, less monster variety to huge amount of variety, near empty world to highly populated world

I could go on, but...

And between Diablo having few cooldowns, a limited mana pool and no auto-attack, and WoW having lots of cooldowns, big mana pools and auto-attack. Again, that covers a ton of ground.

 

[Shadowkire]

snip

kotor was shit and neverwinter nights was average at best. baldurs gate, however, was and is the best rpg i have every played. i dont understand your argument, are you saying baldurs gate wasnt that great because its old? because fallout 1 and 2, baldurs gate 1 and 2, and arcanum, are all what i would consider some of the best rpgs i have ever played. and you cant say its just because i played them so long ago, because every single one of those games i have either played for the first time, or replayed, within the past 2 years. it sounds to me like your criticism of the games is that you dont enjoy traditional rpgs. seems like these days if an rpg isnt fast paced and action oriented, everyones ADD kicks in and they get bored. well if you want a fast paced action game, maybe you should play god of war or some random shooter. i miss the old days of rpgs, when story actually mattered. i cant remember the last modern rpg that actually had a good story, all the stories these days are just comparatively good because we have gotten used to shit stories

My point is that once someone forms an idea it is hard to change that idea:
Old people reference the "good old days" when they were dirt poor(30s), fighting a war(40s), scared of communists in their salads(50s), dealing with inequality, drugs, race riots, and starting a war(60s), and losing a war plus the fallout from the previous decade(70s)

Also the idea that the first impression is the most important. When someone forms an idea it is hard for them to change that idea.

Baldur's Gate was great(for you, the OP, many others and I), but compared to what we have today it is rated at the same level as DAO and ME by a few people. Admittedly I had a small number of people in my experiment but I have a really important question for you:

What in Baldur's Gate makes it the best story still, this is a sincere question, what makes the story great?

 

[dolgion]

@flim.geek.chic
I'm not at all thinking your reply was aggressive. I have the same opinion as you. I'm aspiring to be a game developer, to make my own RPGs with my own ideas. I deeply care about this whole thing, and was actually hoping that this topic would serve as a way to discuss how Bioware changed, if it's bad or not and if so, why. Also, if this post was whiny, then I guess that's too bad for those who can't stand it anymore, it's not like I force anybody to reply.
That said, I try to offer game design suggestions to back up my disposition.

@loremazd

Sorry, you're right in saying that I can't project my own opinion towards all RPG fans. But I still think there's a lot of people feeling let down just as I am. The deaths of Troika, Origin and so on are evidence of the trends in the industry. Maybe some others of the minority of those who prefer the older games over the newer ones will also look into indie game development as I am. As you said, it's sad for people like me.